FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustments Manifesto: Paladin

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Originally Posted by Kari

SE clearly does not play the same game we do.

Let's say for example I'm doing an NM with these jobs:
PLD, DNC, MNK, and WAR.
Very quickly into the fight, all four are going to be capped on hate. [Likely, the PLD last.]
Then the mob gets to swap targets over and over as we all take turns being at the top of the hate list.

Now...explain to me how any of the questions answered are going to help PLD not only maintain hate, but prevent other people from constantly capping hate.
Then explain to me why I'd want a PLD tanking instead of a job that can tank as well as do damage.

At current, PLD has very limited use, even in low man.
And stop trying to cover enmity issues up with THF.
THF does not help with the current enmity system, no matter how much you want it to.
Accomplice/Collab have too long of a recast timer to be useful in a fight -- and when used, it's only noticeable in a couple situations. When hate is capped on everyone and bouncing around, the person you take hate from will immediately get it back anyhow.
Trick Attack is nothing but a damage tool now. Again, with capped hate there's no real change when I TA + Rudra's someone. THF is not some master of enmity control, SE. Update your jobs or systems properly and stop using THF as an excuse not to.

I really hope SE gets a new staff member who actually plays this game to explain to them how things work in practice, and not just theory.

Also still upset that there's no Q&A for DNC yet. :<

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ok Keep in mind im not a pld so I may not know what im talking about but.... last i checked the problem above (in bold) was mostly a pld issue in abyssea.

Also I've been hearing that pld is very useful in voidwatch.... aka where end game currently is right now.

I'm not saying pld has 0 problems..... but maybe you all are being alittle harsh all the same.

Well for higher tier voidwatch NMs we just bring two PLDs and hate reset is not a problem then as one PLD will always have hate

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Originally Posted by Cahlum

Well for higher tier voidwatch NMs we just bring two PLDs and hate reset is not a problem then as one PLD will always have hate

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also this ^

I'm not pretending PLD doesn't have issues it does, everyone capping hate very quickly being the biggest problem but PLD is still very useful in endgame. I'd like PLD to get a sort of stanced JA like solace that stores enmity that they can then convert onto themselves in the event of a hate reset to regain hate. Razed Ruins won't be there forever.

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Originally Posted by Darkwizardzin

not saying that this statment is conpletely false... but enmity douse says hi.

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I'll remember that the next time I have too much hate on WAR.

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Oh.

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Originally Posted by Darkwizardzin

Also I've been hearing that pld is very useful in voidwatch.... aka where end game currently is right now.

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The thing is that's 1 event, and the only event PLD is "needed" at least currently. I'm of the assumption there will be more content like Voidwatch and PLD will come back into the light as a dedicated tank role is needed. Now another assumption I'm making is that SE will introduce easier content (similar difficulty scale of Abyssea and WoE for example) as not everyone who plays the game likes "hard" content. Easier content means PLD isn't needed as a Tank. So if that does happen and if that easier content is the majority of the "endgame" at 99 like it is now, then PLD will still be a 1 trick pony and that does not equate to a fixed job.

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Originally Posted by Septimus

I'll remember that the next time I have too much hate on WAR.

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Oh.

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WAR cares about hate? >.> My WAR/SAM Loves hate it means I get to kill a monster that much faster with Retaliation and the increased TP return for more Weapon Skills.
Edit: If the monster is something that can actually kill my WAR if I pull hate then you know what I do? I hold back, I turn around, I sit on TP, etc. There are lots of ways to keep X job from capping/recapping hate these methods were used in the old days I wonder if you remember those.

Thank you for the response and hard work, Camate! :) So far I love the majority of the things I have read on what is being planned for PLD. There are a few responses though that I'd like to talk about.

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Originally Posted by Camate

We are currently looking into adjustments that will make it possible for paladins to up the amount of enmity they gain in situations where party members’ enmity is steadily rising due to high damage output. However, as was shown in the concept, instead of an ability like Provoke that gives a spike in enmity, we are focusing more on the direction of adding elements that will allow of enmity gain as a part of defense and being able to maintain a high amount of enmity that has been accumulated.

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It's already quite easy to reach the hate cap to the point where the paladin and other damage dealers will be bouncing it back and forth. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of being able to up my enmity in that certain situation but I'm not sure if it will get us anywhere. How about adding something to paladin that suppresses enmity gain on other players for a brief moment?

I'll use Synchronic Blitz from Voidwatch as an example. When we strike a highly vulnerable weakness on the Voidwatch NM we have all the damage dealers go in and do damage. When this happens all of the damage dealers are doing insane amounts of damage to the NM causing them to basically be at the hate cap. At this point in time is when it would be nice for paladin to be able to suppress the amount of enmity the damage dealers gain.

Just a thought...

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Originally Posted by Camate

Though it doesn’t absorb enmity directly, Cover has an effect that is very close.

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I've done some testing with Cover and it does seem to lower the enmity of the person you're covering, but I'm not sure if it works every time from what I've seen. (Maybe it's broken?)

I love what cover can do now, but do you think it would be possible to cover melee attacks like that of the Iron Giant, Hahava, and Celaeno? This would be great! :)

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Originally Posted by Camate

Since Cover was designed to only function with party members, it would be necessary to carefully look into the balance of battles if we expanded it to cover alliance members, so it is not something we can change without a lot of testing. This is same way we approach all abilities and spells for jobs.

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I know this will require your testing, but us paladins feel quite useless when we can't protect our other members when they're in dire need of it. :(

Allowing us to be able to cover anyone in our alliance would be one of the greatest things you could do to paladin. Pretty please with sugar on top, Camate? ;)

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Originally Posted by Zagen

WAR cares about hate? >.> My WAR/SAM Loves hate it means I get to kill a monster that much faster with Retaliation and the increased TP return for more Weapon Skills.
Edit: If the monster is something that can actually kill my WAR if I pull hate then you know what I do? I hold back, I turn around, I sit on TP, etc. There are lots of ways to keep X job from capping/recapping hate these methods were used in the old days I wonder if you remember those.

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So, instead of improving Paladins, we should instead do less damage? That solves all of the problems.

And don't try to condescend to me about the "old days". I spent years in a tree trying to get a dragon. I was in the first NA group that ever killed Tiamat. I was in the first group that ever fought Jailer of Love who found out that it invincible. I know all about the old days.

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Originally Posted by Kuraudo

It's already quite easy to reach the hate cap to the point where the paladin and other damage dealers will be bouncing it back and forth. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of being able to up my enmity in that certain situation but I'm not sure if it will get us anywhere. How about adding something to paladin that suppresses enmity gain on other players for a brief moment?

I'll use Synchronic Blitz from Voidwatch as an example. When we strike a highly vulnerable weakness on the Voidwatch NM we have all the damage dealers go in and do damage. When this happens all of the damage dealers are doing insane amounts of damage to the NM causing them to basically be at the hate cap. At this point in time is when it would be nice for paladin to be able to suppress the amount of enmity the damage dealers gain.

Just a thought...

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I agree with this. Or, something else I was thinking, since enmity is divided into cumulative and volatile, why not make it so that all jobs accrue less cumulative enmity? Like, maybe half or less of what they used to? Back then, it was really hard to reach that cumulative enmity cap, which is why Paladin was always on top. It's difficult when say, a Samurai, runs in and does a solo Light skillchain for like 6k and that basically caps their hate. Back then, no one was doing 6k anything, which is why it wasn't so difficult to get hate back.

I mean, I understand that it's the Samurai's fault in this situation for doing that much damage and pulling off the tank, but at the same time, why bother getting better as a damage dealer if getting better means you're just going to get killed because the Paladin spent 5 minutes capping their enmity and the Samurai then takes 5 seconds to cap their's and then get killed? I really think the rate at which we cap cumulative enmity should be lowered. Like, way lowered. Just a thought anyway.

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Originally Posted by Darkwizardzin

ok Keep in mind im not a pld so I may not know what im talking about but.... last i checked the problem above (in bold) was mostly a pld issue in abyssea.

Also I've been hearing that pld is very useful in voidwatch.... aka where end game currently is right now.

I'm not saying pld has 0 problems..... but maybe you all are being alittle harsh all the same.

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This is true outside of Abyssea as well.
Maybe not for everyone, I suppose, but any situation where your DDs are fairly good.
A majority of the DDs in my LS have an Empyrean weapon, and are able to hate cap outside of Abyssea quite easily.
Abyssea makes it happen easier with less gear, but outside, a well geared DD is still going to have problems with the hate cap. It also means the PLD is going to have a harder time hitting hate cap themselves, even if it means they only get to bounce hate back and forth.

I'd really like to see a "stance" type skill for PLD that gives them some sort of "Absorb Enmity from nearby Alliance members" aura. Though, it might be a bit out of the question. If the aura was constant enough, it'd prevent DDs from hitting the absolute hate cap, and keep them just under it, while the PLD would be constantly hitting the top.
Hopefully SE does something.
I don't play PLD, and I probably won't anytime in the near future, but PLDs definitely need some help, and SE is proving they don't understand what PLD needs.