On Red Mage melee...

Ok played with things a bit and using ACP DW body + Eru's feet I can get 90 Almace + Eph to be 0.00839% better then 90 Almace + STR Shikagar.

-=Edit=-

I stand corrected, VS anything T or higher the Eph off hand starts to lose to the Shikagar. LCF's effect sucks.

-=Edit=-

Don't want to create a bunch of self reply's.

With 0 ODD (can't find a number to put in there) Req Spam beats out Almace CDC by a very narrow margin on harder things (high defense NM's over your level). Vs weaker things it easily beats it. On much harder things it lose's to CDC. Really want a better ODD number to plug in because that could sway the numbers on the NM with high defense.

Otherwise, the Req gear is ridiculously easy to get. Any decent RDM will have most of this already, its your MND enfeebling gear.

Well Seriha finally got what they wanted. A "hybrid" WS that RDM can naively use.

What do you mean better ODD number? unless you can't keep up AM1, ODD is applied to main hand only on sheet. Set it to whatever level AM you have, unless you can't keep any AM up at all.

Moten's sheets do not have AM1/2/3 as a list.

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Melee Multiplier 1 1
ODD Rate (main hand) 0% 0%

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What is the proc rate of the ODD on Emp weapons? The sheet is wanting that number to calculate out the average melee damage.

30%/40%/50% AM 1/2/3.

EDIT: Mandau is 13% Triple damage, Excalibur is close to 15% iirc.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Req is actually 'fixed', since I informed Mot about the issue with replicating ftp. Excal actually beats Almace on weaker mobs. Falls behind on stronger stuff due to attack penalty.

Although I doubt you'll even read this.

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Wait...so req used to have replicating FTP and now it was 'fixed' to not replicate, or the other way around? I hadnt heard anything about this being changed so which way is it now?

Other way around, We didn't know Requi had replicating ftp at first. This is in regards to Mot's DPS sheets. It also means elebelt/elegorget are best in slot for the WS above any other options.

Wow i missed that memo. Ive been living it up dual boxing with my Thf/dnc and rdm/dnc mule Req<=>Rudra darkness. Makes me sad ive been missing out on a 20% boost to WS damage via gorget/belt all these months :(

If my crappy mule can do half the damage of my super pimped thf, im curious what someone that gives a crap can do :P

/goes to change macros and make an ele gorget >_<

My requie/deathblossom builds arent maximal but outside abyssea ive spiked 1800s a few times on the goblins in dangruf (EP) and the skeletons (1700 atleast a few times) in Labrynth of onzozo (the ones that drop seasoning stones). Using elebelts, but so far, mnd hasnt seemed to impress me too much yet. Im still finding my str/attack to win, but im still lacking some of the best mnd gear (in slot) at the moment. Due to inventory woes ive been packing hybrid int/mnd pieces into slots (Praeco doublet for example) so yes.

Ok, so assuming we're putting together Requiescat sets, do we focus on balance between +Attack and MND, focus more on MND or focus more on Attack?

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Originally Posted by saevel

Well Seriha finally got what they wanted. A "hybrid" WS that RDM can naively use.

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lv97 and requiring 100 merits dumped into it to make worthwhile is not what I'd exactly call native. Not to mention there are those other 96 levels to account for. Well, 66 really because you can probably get away with having just Fast Blade going into lv30~.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Ok, so assuming we're putting together Requiescat sets, do we focus on balance between +Attack and MND, focus more on MND or focus more on Attack?
lv97 and requiring 100 merits dumped into it to make worthwhile is not what I'd exactly call native. Not to mention there are those other 96 levels to account for. Well, 66 really because you can probably get away with having just Fast Blade going into lv30~.

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Ohh I agree it's not perfect, but then again our last "Native" WS was level 75 and required a R/EX weapon from Nyzule, a 100 floor disc, or a retarded amount of time (14,000 Ws points I believe).

Merit Points seem much easier to do, especially in this day of Abyssea and 15K XP from Voidwatch. Seriously I did Req almost exclusively from Voidwatch XP.

Gear wise, crap MND into every slot you can. Ele gorget / Belt and Atheling mantle are the exceptions. If we had a MND+15 back then I'd use it, but 20 Atk 3 DA will beat 6 MND. It's basically your "max potency" MND enfeebling set. Praeco (or Cure +10% body) is a perfect piece for body, its +15 MND, only thing better is the R/EX Akvan drop at +17, but he can kiss my a$$ (0/ridiculous so far). Our Emp gear and Relic +2 provide a ton of MND in various slots. Aquasoul rings for +7 on each finger. Ruarc crown is kinda rare on the AH cause nobody does that VWNM now. So I'll be using Emp +2 Head for 8MND. Duelists +2 is +7 on the hands and used for your Enhancing set anyway. Legs would be rubious but if you don't have those then some +7 pair off the AH. Self buff with Gain-STR not Gain-MND, the MND will do more for your WS but the STR will do more for your melee, most of our damage is from melee not WS. Gain-DEX + CDC was the exception because it also enhanced our crit rate to some degree. That being said, if your primary role is landing a maxed our paralyze / slow on something, then the difference between Gain-MND and Gain-STR isn't very big.

The gorget / belt turn it into a 7.2 fTP WS (5+1 + fTP bonus). The -20% attack hurts .. lots, yet the +fTP and our easy access to ridiculous amounts of MND makes up for it and then some.

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Originally Posted by saevel

The gorget / belt turn it into a 7.2 fTP WS (5+1 + fTP bonus). The -20% attack hurts .. lots, yet the +fTP and our easy access to ridiculous amounts of MND makes up for it and then some.

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Guess I have more ahead of me, then. Oh well. Guess I'll start shouting for boot farming parties and then see who is still doing +1 items before I can even think about getting +2.

I just use Tumbler for Legs for Req, it's about the same as Jet. If I actually won Tethyn from Neo Nyzul I'd have used those however. Earring is another exception as moonshade should outperform MND earrings.

Saevel I'm assume you do some dyna in valkrum, and I was curious to know what kind of numbers you were seeing out there with your current set up's? Easy and decent prey mob's?

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Earring is another exception as moonshade should outperform MND earrings.

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With the "Occasional Bonus Damage on TP" or the "+25 TP bonus"?

TP bonus. I don't think the occaisonal bonus damage will ever activate as all TP is consumed on WS. And the effect is pretty bad in the first place, being like chance of double damage at 300 TP.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

With the "Occasional Bonus Damage on TP" or the "+25 TP bonus"?

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No info yet as to how much the Tp Bonus would decrease the attack penalty, at least none posted on BGwiki. Without knowing that can't place a value on Moonshade other then Attack+4. TPBonus +25 is really nice for Shoha though.

What needs to be tested thread, the information is still being debated. It looks like Requiescat's attack penalty is halved at 300 TP according to a JP site that needs verification on values (they have Requiescat listed as -22% at 100TP, not -20%).

There is a TP bonus value on the sheets and at least for crit/damage modded by TP weaponskills it is being applied correctly.

Going by the JP website TP bonus +25 would reduce the attack bonus on all hits by ~1% at 100TP.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

What needs to be tested thread, the information is still being debated. It looks like Requiescat's attack penalty is halved at 300 TP according to a JP site that needs verification on values (they have Requiescat listed as -22% at 100TP, not -20%).

There is a TP bonus value on the sheets and at least for crit/damage modded by TP weaponskills it is being applied correctly.

Going by the JP website TP bonus +25 would reduce the attack bonus on all hits by ~1% at 100TP.

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Umm we currently have no clue what level of attack penalty that Req has at 200 and 300 TP. Req doesn't gain fTP or crit from TP only an amount of attack that we don't know. Any math done with it would be flat wrong as the value isn't known. TP bonus effects rarely scale linearly from 100 to 300, typically it's a curve or stepped scale. We won't know the damage bonus from 100 to 125 TP until we know how much attack penalty is on 200TP.

... What...? TP effects do scale linearly, why do you think I brought up crit based weaponskills... the only ones that really don't are either broken (exenterator) or poorly worded (anything with 'chance based on TP' as it's accuracy is actually based on skill level). I did mention the data wasn't verified, but the attack penalties on new weaponskills is reduced based on TP. the Amount it is reduced by was not confimed, but TP bonus should still be the best earring next to Brutal.

TP bonus is applied linearly for crit weaponskills, Moonshade adds ~2% crit rate to CDC at 100% and ~3% to VS/Ukko's.

And sadly, TP scaling linearly hasn't been written down properly anywhere. For Ukko's TP bonus will increase damage over str+4 pearl, post here by Ejiin:

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/19...up/36/#1768007

EDIT: TP bonus is also being applied to Blade: Shun, so you'll have to ask Mot how it's being calculated. It's certainly doing something however.

At any rate, the best MND earring is +4. Even Aesir is equal to/better than that, so the TP bonus only needs to make up for equal to or more than 3 attack.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

... What...? TP effects do scale linearly, why do you think I brought up crit based weaponskills... the only ones that really don't are either broken (exenterator) or poorly worded (anything with 'chance based on TP' as it's accuracy is actually based on skill level). I did mention the data wasn't verified, but the attack penalties on new weaponskills is reduced based on TP. the Amount it is reduced by was not confimed, but TP bonus should still be the best earring next to Brutal.

TP bonus is applied linearly for crit weaponskills, Moonshade adds ~2% crit rate to CDC at 100% and ~3% to VS/Ukko's.

And sadly, TP scaling linearly hasn't been written down properly anywhere. For Ukko's TP bonus will increase damage over str+4 pearl, post here by Ejiin:

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/19...up/36/#1768007

EDIT: TP bonus is also being applied to Blade: Shun, so you'll have to ask Mot how it's being calculated. It's certainly doing something however.

At any rate, the best MND earring is +4. Even Aesir is equal to/better than that, so the TP bonus only needs to make up for equal to or more than 3 attack.

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Shoha,
Calamity
Gekko (pretty much all SAM WS's)

And those are just what I thought of in 5s. Give me longer and I can find more.

And I was referring to the +fTP one WS's, the ones people talk about using Martial Weapons for, or did anyway. Typically it's a line from 100 to 200, then a different line from 200 to 300, some WS's it's a straight line, others it's a stepped line. Without knowing what 200 is, we can't figure out want 125 would be.

100 is -20
200 is ???
300 is ???

It could be -20/-10/0, or -20/-15/-10, or -20/-10/-8, ect.. All those would place different values on moon shade earring. In all likely hood it's the best in-slot, but until we know those valued we can't say for certain that it is. And we sure as hell can't do any form of math to say how much better it is.

EDIT: Had values mixed up, Better for harder targets. Your best bet is to light the Mot signal and ask exactly how it's being figured for Shun/Requiescat.

I don't actually see the earring listed on the RDM sheet. It looks like she's just applying a blanket -20% attack to Req and that's the end of it.

Are you sure? It was in other sheets so I assumed it was naturally there (I use the same name for all of them). But there is a section in gearlists for TP bonus, and adding 25 TP bonus will affect damage on CDC and Requiescat. If you don't want to use insert replace Coral Earring with Moonshade's stats.

For CDC TP bonus+25 comes out somewhere between +2-3% crit rate (if you put that in the gear lists instead), which is the expected value for weaponskilling near 100 TP.

what about murgleis with ao2-3 AM up?

It should win, but it's only viable in VW, which is where Rdm melee isn't really viable.

AM3 is hard to figure but with full temps I'd say it's at least ~15% ahead of 90 Almace. Assumed 40/20 OA2-3 and Death Blossom. Target was supposed T3 VWNM.

RDM can melee on the weaker ones, but you have better things to do on Jeuno T3 / T6 NMs. Namely help the BLMs proc.

Something I've been thinking about is the supposed revision of skill profficiencies per job. I'm hoping that is still part of the plan and that something worthwhile comes our way because of it.

Currently, we sit at:

B Sword
B Dagger
D Club
D Archery
F Throwing

D Evasion
E Parry
F Shield

C+ Elemental
A+ Enfeebling
B+ Enhancing
C- Healing
E Divine
E Dark

Personally, I'd get rid of Archery and Throwing and give us back Marksmanship at probably D. Shield should really be raised to D or maybe even C-. If C- is too much, then raise Shield and Parry to D. Everything else as far as I can tell would be acceptable, though I would not be against Sword and Dagger being raised to B+.

What is marksmanship going to do when you need to sub or main Rng/Cor for the weaponskills? The current ones we have they should consider adjusting, assuming they even do so, are Elemental, Enhancing, (maybe healing post cure adjustment, Divine is useless with no divine spells, Dark skill isn't a huge importance but could be bumped up as well) and Sword/Dagger. The defensive skills aren't really worth adjusting at all. Even if they raise Parry, it would still most likely be floored at anything even marginally close to giving you Exp.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Something I've been thinking about is the supposed revision of skill profficiencies per job. I'm hoping that is still part of the plan and that something worthwhile comes our way because of it.

Currently, we sit at:

B Sword
B Dagger
D Club
D Archery
F Throwing

D Evasion
E Parry
F Shield

C+ Elemental
A+ Enfeebling
B+ Enhancing
C- Healing
E Divine
E Dark

Personally, I'd get rid of Archery and Throwing and give us back Marksmanship at probably D. Shield should really be raised to D or maybe even C-. If C- is too much, then raise Shield and Parry to D. Everything else as far as I can tell would be acceptable, though I would not be against Sword and Dagger being raised to B+.

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Don't forget staff skill. I don't think there's any other job so reliant on a weapon type, yet have no skill in it..
So like BRD, give RDM C+ staff skill with relevant weaponskills. (And unlock all elemental weaponskills on sword.)

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F Shield

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But... but ... but .... we have Shield Mastery!!
LMAO
SE trolled us so badly with that.

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Originally Posted by Kristal

Don't forget staff skill. I don't think there's any other job so reliant on a weapon type, yet have no skill in it..
So like BRD, give RDM C+ staff skill with relevant weaponskills. (And unlock all elemental weaponskills on sword.)

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They wont give RDM Staff skill ever, Like it or not SE don't want them using Staves regardless the fact a few are good for RDM such as the nuking ones, just be grateful they still put RDM on the good Staff Trials.

If anything they'd only up Club skill weapon wise.

Truth be told, the only use of Staff Skill would be for Triggers in Abyssea and that's it (not that I'd mind this), no RDM in their right mind would use a staff if they planned on melee.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

They wont give RDM Staff skill ever, Like it or not SE don't want them using Staves regardless the fact a few are good for RDM such as the nuking ones, just be grateful they still put RDM on the good Staff Trials.

If anything they'd only up Club skill weapon wise.

Truth be told, the only use of Staff Skill would be for Triggers in Abyssea and that's it (not that I'd mind this), no RDM in their right mind would use a staff if they planned on melee.

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RDM staff melee would be worse then RDM sword melee.. that alone should be enough to convince any dev...

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Originally Posted by Kristal

Don't forget staff skill. I don't think there's any other job so reliant on a weapon type, yet have no skill in it..
So like BRD, give RDM C+ staff skill with relevant weaponskills. (And unlock all elemental weaponskills on sword.)

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I can agree with unlocking Sword WS for RDM, but not on giving the job a staff skill. Thematically it doesnt fit and I'm sure there's room for abuse in some way if we weren't given said skill in the first revamp.

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Originally Posted by saevel

But... but ... but .... we have Shield Mastery!!
LMAO
SE trolled us so badly with that.

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Why do you think I was so mad when that change was made? >.>

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What is marksmanship going to do when you need to sub or main Rng/Cor for the weaponskills? The current ones we have they should consider adjusting, assuming they even do so, are Elemental, Enhancing, (maybe healing post cure adjustment, Divine is useless with no divine spells, Dark skill isn't a huge importance but could be bumped up as well) and Sword/Dagger.

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The marksmanship thing is personal preference, as I have it leveled for DRK. Knowing "balance" and all, I don't see them raising our skills without taking something away, which is why I so easily volunteered Archery and Throwing. I mean, if the revisions come with no if ands or buts, then I agree with you on what they should raise.

Saevel -- Think you're using the wrong term for what you mean. All TP scaling (when TP affects damage) is linear, however many weaponskills have discontinuous functions (ie: different between 100-200 TP and between 200-300 TP). There is no "stepped" scaling.

What I've got in the current spreadsheet assumes a reduction in the attack penalty by 7.5% per 100 TP, giving it -20% @100 TP, -12.5% @200 TP, -5% @300 TP (calculations are done on the weaponskill page). I don't remember where I got the -5% from, and yes, it all needs more testing to more properly pin down the numbers.

However even moving it from -12.5% @200 TP to -15% (ie: scale up at 5% per 100 TP instead of 7.5%), that's a difference of getting effectively +7 att instead of +10 for the TP bonus. Overall, the 4 att/25 TP bonus earring is likely worth somewhere between +11 and +14 attack, total.

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Originally Posted by Motenten

Saevel -- Think you're using the wrong term for what you mean. All TP scaling (when TP affects damage) is linear, however many weaponskills have discontinuous functions (ie: different between 100-200 TP and between 200-300 TP). There is no "stepped" scaling.

What I've got in the current spreadsheet assumes a reduction in the attack penalty by 7.5% per 100 TP, giving it -20% @100 TP, -12.5% @200 TP, -5% @300 TP (calculations are done on the weaponskill page). I don't remember where I got the -5% from, and yes, it all needs more testing to more properly pin down the numbers.

However even moving it from -12.5% @200 TP to -15% (ie: scale up at 5% per 100 TP instead of 7.5%), that's a difference of getting effectively +7 att instead of +10 for the TP bonus. Overall, the 4 att/25 TP bonus earring is likely worth somewhere between +11 and +14 attack, total.

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Linearly between anchor points, when you graph then 100 to 300 (or 0 to 300 for BLU) it's not a flat line for every WS. Which is what I was saying, that without knowing how much attack reduction 200 and 300 have, then we can't figure out what 125 would be. I've been checking on BG and nothings in the wiki nor could I find any testing in the forums for the 200 / 300 penalty's. Biggest MND per ear is 4 with 3 being the most common. So we're comparing 3 MND @100% WSC vs some unknown attack value, between 7~12.

EDIT: Keeps changing when I change swords! Aquapearl is like 0.2% better for fodder using the current formula than Aesir. If moonshade is worth +11 attack it loses by the same amount.

you would think 1500 posts would tell SE something is being desired here....

Their not sure what they want to do with RDM. They know they want RDM's to buff themselves and enfeebles monsters, but not sure how to go about it with "breaking" the game (in their minds).

Honestly RDM melee is the one area that RDM really can't break anything game wise. We soloed all that stuff at 75 not because of melee capability but because of our enfeeble set and players abusing AI pathing.

Duelle, I just have to compliment you for keeping this thread still alive. 1559 posts!!! :D

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Originally Posted by Kaych

Duelle, I just have to compliment you for keeping this thread still alive. 1559 posts!!!

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Thank you. I just hope someone at SE is actually reading these posts and getting a read of what we're asking for.

Anyway, Saev mentioned the 500+ Enhancing skill set. I'm guessing he means:

Enhancing Torque = 7
Duelist's Tabard +2 = 15
Duelist's Gloves +2 = 18
Warlock's Tights = 15
Estoqueur's Houseaux +2 = 15
Estoqueur's Cape = 6
Olympus Sash = 5

Merits = 16

Base Skill @ 99 = 404

Total = 501

Which means 30 damage Enspells, 45.2 damage reduction on Phalanx, and approximately 20% double attack from Temper, if the math is correct. (note: Corrected base value. For some reason I assumed RDM had A+ in Enhancing instead of B+.)

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Honestly RDM melee is the one area that RDM really can't break anything game wise. We soloed all that stuff at 75 not because of melee capability but because of our enfeeble set and players abusing AI pathing.

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The funny thing is that it wasn't even enfeebling as a whole, but rather Bio DOT, Bind and Gravity. If they had nerfed Bio's DoT (and made it stack with Dia while they were at it), nerfed Bind to be more like a 2 second stagger on a running mob, and changed Gravity to a pure Evasion Down spell (and a much longer duration to compensate) without the running speed shenanigans, boss soloing would have died right where it started.