Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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Originally Posted by Arciel

quite happy to leave it at that. guess he can't do without anonymity..

which, on the same note, was exactly how lolCraftermath aka lolElementa operated. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, i wouldnt be so quick to assume Dallas is the same person.. but they're definitely in the same league of idiocy.

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Based on his writing i'm 99% positive its Craftermath >__>

Wait, I'm missing something.

Who the heck is Craftermath/Elementa?

Considering 95% of this thread was just Dallas saying LOLUKON and the rest of us saying LOLDALLAS I doubt that without him it will continue for very long.

Other than that one oddball, the rest of us seem to agree on most of the issues touched upon on this topic.

Emp/Relic/Mythic Staves (with the exception of Nirvana) offer different styles of gameplay, but in no way are comparable to their TotM counterparts.

Maybe someday (95/99) BLM and SCH Mythics will out do TotM staves for nuking, but until Relic/Emp staves get some kind of perp-, enmity reduction (would have to be cap breaking, which is a huge possibility with how Burtgang and Aegis work), or Elemental Affinity Bonus (Or simply GIANT numbers of MAB - Easily over 25 from the amount of damage bonus Elemental Affinity Staves give) they just don't make the cut.

On the BLM staff I could see maybe Double Casting, like what's seen in other FF games (Cast two spells at once) or on the SCH staff MP cost reduction (up to 50% like what's common in other FF games). Relic Staff seems to be going down a lonely road to complete and utter uselessness though.

I can't see anything ever beating Nirvana though, and it's only getting better.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I can't see anything ever beating Nirvana though, and it's only getting better.

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A Staff that does double damage to BPs. Like +2 Caller's Set, but more often and separate from the set (so you can have a chance to do quadruple damage). Only way to beat Nirvana.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

A Staff that does double damage to BPs. Like +2 Caller's Set, but more often and separate from the set (so you can have a chance to do quadruple damage). Only way to beat Nirvana.

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<_< well A staff that deals 58943 times damage would beat it too, but its just unlikely.

Although it only really reinforces my point, Nirvana rocks.

A lot of Mythic weapons are actually amazing, though under rated. Ryunohige90 is the only weapon to ever challenge Ukon90, almost beating it in DPS. Still, most are only a waste of time... However Nirvana doesn't fit into that category.

Well, Nirvana is pretty much the only staff that would make melee SMN viable. You got it all. The staff contains perp cost reduction (by a buttload). It contains MAB+ for magical BPs. It has Att+, Acc+, and Occasionally double attack + for not only the summoner, but the avatar also. Who wouldn't want their Garuda to do double attacks?

And, it doesn't limit you to a single WS that does 0 damage to maintain MP. You can do Garland of Bliss or Spirit Taker (and if you double attack Spirit Taker, that's even better!) (But I doubt the weapon works that way).

Err... I think Ryunohige may actually beat Ukon in a lot of situations. Even Conqueror may beat Ukon sometimes (pretty much the ultimate zerg weapon). Right now DD mythics for many jobs are very underrated compared to their damage potential. Not that it matters, because they're made of unobtainium.

The biggest problem for them is how precisely you need to time AM3 activation (AM3 doesn't overwrite AM3), which tends to leave you either without AM3 while trying to build TP to 300, or overTPing at 300TP. Ryunohige has it nice here, because of Spirit/Soul Jump (5x normal hit x~1.7 attacks/round = 170TP average), Meditate (60TP), and AM3 duration all approximately lining up timer-wise, which gives you a little wiggle room and lets you boost your TP as needed. Jump/High Jump recast merits let you just save the Spirit/Soul for after WS if you don't need their TP. They take a lot more effort to play than, say, Ukon though.

Tbqh, I'd definitely get one just because they sound fun to play. The real limitation for me is the 100k Ampuoles, non-spawning Beast Kings, and last 50k tokens I'm missing, though. I feel that I could make the gil for the Alexandrite before there's enough Alexandrite on the market for me to buy, let alone before I finish any of those other things.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/907...=1#post4666916

Well, to be quite honest as well, Hvergelmir isn't a bad weapon, even for SMN. It has its uses, and does in fact excel for meleeing. I'm of the belief that for anything <EM which is relatively safe to melee on, Hvergelmir will win out as the weapon of choice for MP longevity simply because of the sheer amount of MP you're able to get back without much difficulty, which is better than Spirit Taker as well because it isn't accuracy reliant and nets you consistent MP returns without fail.

But anything harder than you, a SMN really shouldn't be meleeing, and so ultimately, Hvergelmir fails as a weapon even for its best use (MP regen) in challenging situations. Because in principle a SMN isn't going to be meleeing, theres really nothing to compare in terms of damage numbers - they're theoretical at best and have no practical use.

However, if we're talking about new/popular events, the Hvergelmir gets an extended lease of life. In Abyssea, you typically wouldn't even have MP issues but Hvergelmir (or that other Myrkr weapon) will give you the option to swap out MM for a regain atma should you so need the TP for other uses as well (like idk, procs).

It shines in Voidwatch as well, because MP is indeed an issue and players aren't always going to get regular procs to replenish their temp item supply. A Hvergelmir effectively converts a Dusty Wing into something like an Ether, which is useful in such events, but pretty much as a swap in piece.

I'm working on both Hvergelmir and Nirvana right now and must say.. getting a Hvergelmir is ridiculously easy because no one wants the items required to make the staff. I started about a week back - doing Sedna first cos its easier to solo with BST - and had people giving me Tusks left and right... also have like 10+ Kukulkan Fangs and all were given to me.
Suffice to say it isn't hard at all to make a functional (one that can use Myrkr) Hvergelmir to use as a fun tool for EP solo play and as a TP converter..

As for Nirvana, almost 2/5 done on Assault reclears and working on znm trophies. building reserves for alex too but other than these 3 things im done.. so.. gonna soldier on and hope the 'changes to toau' will affect this positively

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I'm working on both Hvergelmir and Nirvana right now and must say.. getting a Hvergelmir is ridiculously easy because no one wants the items required to make the staff. I started about a week back - doing Sedna first cos its easier to solo with BST - and had people giving me Tusks left and right... also have like 10+ Kukulkan Fangs and all were given to me.
Suffice to say it isn't hard at all to make a functional (one that can use Myrkr) Hvergelmir to use as a fun tool for EP solo play and as a TP converter..

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I never considered the "giving" path. Maybe it would actually work. Do you just catch pickup groups going for atmas and wins?

Personally, I end up with random popsets for stuff like Sedna and Kukulkan and hand them off to the 1-2 people I know that are trying to make the staff whenever we can get enough people together to kill them. I think I've contributed at least 10 fangs towards one of my friend's staves, and probably close to 20 towards staves overall. Also gave away Azdaja horns, Sedna tusks, etc. If I know people are going to do it, I tell him so he can come lot.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I never considered the "giving" path. Maybe it would actually work. Do you just catch pickup groups going for atmas and wins?

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I joined a JP group that was farming for +2 items, I told them all I wanted was the sedna tusks; They said they were doing 3 sednas, and ended up doing about 10, and they happily gave me all the fangs, and I ended up getting some +2 items too when no one needed them anymore lol.

For me, Kukulkan was more of a pain, because nobody really fought him much when I was on that trial. now, with the +2 items dropping in those areas, those NMs becaome a little more popular but still no one wants the staff items, so if you want one of these, it's pretty much the easiest empyrean until you get to Azdaja...

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Err... I think Ryunohige may actually beat Ukon in a lot of situations. Even Conqueror may beat Ukon sometimes (pretty much the ultimate zerg weapon). Right now DD mythics for many jobs are very underrated compared to their damage potential. Not that it matters, because they're made of unobtainium.

The biggest problem for them is how precisely you need to time AM3 activation (AM3 doesn't overwrite AM3), which tends to leave you either without AM3 while trying to build TP to 300, or overTPing at 300TP. Ryunohige has it nice here, because of Spirit/Soul Jump (5x normal hit x~1.7 attacks/round = 170TP average), Meditate (60TP), and AM3 duration all approximately lining up timer-wise, which gives you a little wiggle room and lets you boost your TP as needed. Jump/High Jump recast merits let you just save the Spirit/Soul for after WS if you don't need their TP. They take a lot more effort to play than, say, Ukon though.

Tbqh, I'd definitely get one just because they sound fun to play. The real limitation for me is the 100k Ampuoles, non-spawning Beast Kings, and last 50k tokens I'm missing, though. I feel that I could make the gil for the Alexandrite before there's enough Alexandrite on the market for me to buy, let alone before I finish any of those other things.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/907...=1#post4666916

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I can see Conqueror outside of Abyssea, but inside there's no way the aftermath could possibly keep the dps up of Ukon considering the damage difference between King's Justice and Ukko's Fury. Maybe on incredibly high defense mobs (though none come to mind where the unreal amounts of Attack from the aftermath+Berserk IV are actually needed when using RCB and Stalwarts, other than outside abyssea in stuff like Voidwatch). Ukon still has ODD, and Ukko's Fury is miles ahead of King's Justice.

Personally I would love to go after Conqueror or Ryunohige just because of the drastically different play styles, but I don't even like playing more than 10 hours a week anymore, so no way.

He did mention zerging so I'm guessing he's assuming you're using MS in which case 90 Conqueror should beat Ukon.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I can see Conqueror outside of Abyssea, but inside there's no way the aftermath could possibly keep the dps up of Ukon considering the damage difference between King's Justice and Ukko's Fury. Maybe on incredibly high defense mobs (though none come to mind where the unreal amounts of Attack from the aftermath+Berserk IV are actually needed when using RCB and Stalwarts, other than outside abyssea in stuff like Voidwatch). Ukon still has ODD, and Ukko's Fury is miles ahead of King's Justice.

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Um...you wouldn't be using King's Justice...you would be using Raging Rush..........

Even with lack of crits I think KJ would be better than RR outside due to the 25% WS Damage from 90 Conqueror. At least it would be more consistent and you'd still get aftermath.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Um...you wouldn't be using King's Justice...you would be using Raging Rush..........

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In that case, it wouldn't even be a competition. Conq w/o the OTT isn't rly going to do much for you.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Personally I would love to go after Conqueror or Ryunohige just because of the drastically different play styles, but I don't even like playing more than 10 hours a week anymore, so no way.

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Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel about Terpsichore.

For zerging with Mighty Strikes, Conqueror is best inside or outside.
King's Justice: 3.0 fTP before DAs, 50% STR, +60% "DA" rate that can proc on WS, +15% WS damage from level 90.
Ukko's Fury: 3.0 fTP before DAs, 60% STR

Assuming you run 30% DA and +.2 fTP in your WS gear normally (and avg pdif = 3) and 100TP:
KJ: 4.64*1.15=5.336 fTP effectively, 50% STR = ~5.2k average
Ukko's Fury: 3.8 fTP, 60% STR : ~4k average
With 300TP (to start AM3):
KJ: 5.91 fTP average, 50% STR : ~5.8k average

And (unconfirmed) +40% Attack from Berserk, much easier 5-hit, 70% DA rate instead of 30%, high probability of DA->DA for 100TP in two attack rounds, etc. It's not just a little better in zerg conditions. It's a looootttt better. I'd love to see one in action.

Inside Abyssea, obviously crits are king. Outside Abyssea, Conqueror is pretty sweet. However, I've heard that someone who has both prefers to use her Ukon. I have to imagine that King's Justice is finally better than Raging Rush, though.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I never considered the "giving" path. Maybe it would actually work. Do you just catch pickup groups going for atmas and wins?

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my original intention was to solo the KI nms then gather people to do the NM for speed and not to waste drops.. but in the process I'd meed competition in camping said NMs.. and then we somehow decided to team up cos they want what I don't want and vice versa. Since then I always just put the item in my search comment and sometimes I get people asking me if I want to join their runs for the items. At other times if I see the NM up on widescan (i solo/farm the KIs on bst 99% of the time) I'll go check it out and send a polite tell to the leader asking if they need the item.

Sedna is definitely a lot easier than Kukulkan because he drops more stuff and also because it's truly a joke NM that I'd solo down if I had to. Either way, people are usually open to giving away these items cos no one other than staff makers would want them ever.

With Azdaja, it becomes a little more competitive because the horns are used for Ochain too.. but honestly you can just stop at 85 for the staff if your intention is Myrkr, which is what I'm doing.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

For zerging with Mighty Strikes, Conqueror is best inside or outside.
King's Justice: 3.0 fTP before DAs, 50% STR, +60% "DA" rate that can proc on WS, +15% WS damage from level 90.
Ukko's Fury: 3.0 fTP before DAs, 60% STR

Assuming you run 30% DA and +.2 fTP in your WS gear normally (and avg pdif = 3) and 100TP:
KJ: 4.64*1.15=5.336 fTP effectively, 50% STR = ~5.2k average
Ukko's Fury: 3.8 fTP, 60% STR : ~4k average
With 300TP (to start AM3):
KJ: 5.91 fTP average, 50% STR : ~5.8k average

And (unconfirmed) +40% Attack from Berserk, much easier 5-hit, 70% DA rate instead of 30%, high probability of DA->DA for 100TP in two attack rounds, etc. It's not just a little better in zerg conditions. It's a looootttt better. I'd love to see one in action.

Inside Abyssea, obviously crits are king. Outside Abyssea, Conqueror is pretty sweet. However, I've heard that someone who has both prefers to use her Ukon. I have to imagine that King's Justice is finally better than Raging Rush, though.

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Oh with Mighty Strikes, that makes more sense.

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As for Nirvana, almost 2/5 done on Assault reclears and working on znm trophies. building reserves for alex too but other than these 3 things im done.

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Those 3 things are like 95% of the work involved.

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Originally Posted by Arciel

With Azdaja, it becomes a little more competitive because the horns are used for Ochain too.. but honestly you can just stop at 85 for the staff if your intention is Myrkr, which is what I'm doing.

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Or you can go to WoE and get the staff in like 30 minutes, no one on earth wants Ruin coins.

The WoE weapon doesn't have +100 MP on it, which is the "stat mod" for Myrkr.

If you pump enough max MP when you use the WS, "60%" MP becomes closer to "100%."

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Those 3 things are like 95% of the work involved.

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>_>
More like ~60%. but it varies because you don't actually have to do the entire ZNM path for trophies. it being droprate reliant, can go between serious effort on your part to no effort at all if you're getting it free from friends.

Assault reclears don't take that much effort but time because of the way tags are distributed, and if you still need to farm tokens from Nyzul then you're split between the two. Both are, however, an eventuality and you can conveniently stockpile on tokens well before you decide to start on a mythic. Same goes for Einherjar, but you really have to commit to doing it at some point.

Alexandrite has always been the biggest drawback, because whether you do it yourself or buy, you're going to take a while due to how many runs you do a day, farming AP to cover run cost, whether you have friends/mules to make up entry numbers OR rate of alex supply, how much gil you have, and market price fluctuations.

The last of which is unreasonably skewed because a 1k shift in single unit price shifts the overall cost of a Mythic by 30million. In a similar situation, a 1k shift in single unit dynamis currency shifts the cost of a Relic by ~18mil, but this is an exaggerated figure because Relic cost is pegged to 3 currencies, affording it slightly more stability, plus you get back a 30m~ rebate value.

so basically, the alexandrite market is still very screwed up. its suffers from volatility due to too many suppliers but insufficient supply, in spite of relatively low demand... one would think anyway.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Or you can go to WoE and get the staff in like 30 minutes, no one on earth wants Ruin coins.

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That too, but i like the Emp staff for its shininess :D also because I'm after certain drops from both Kukulkan and Sedna at the same time. to each his own and to suit your goals, i'd say.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The WoE weapon doesn't have +100 MP on it, which is the "stat mod" for Myrkr.

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Kind of irrelevant, since you can double your MP through gear in the first place. You can get at least 600 MP through gear, SMN/SAM has like 700 MP.

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Originally Posted by Arciel

That too, but i like the Emp staff for its shininess :D also because I'm after certain drops from both Kukulkan and Sedna at the same time. to each his own and to suit your goals, i'd say.

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Can't argue with that, and can't argue that Hvergelmir is the better weapon. But if you aren't SMN main and you want a 'quick' SMN Melee weapon, you could probably leech 30 Ruin Coins in 1~3 runs of Flux 2 in WoE.