[dev1289] Job Adjustments

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Originally Posted by dasva

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I'm halfway certain there might be a way to get wyverns to tank...they certainly got the best dt out there but that's some serious next lvl square peg stuff

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Their enmity generation is too low to effectively tank. Which was my point and why Beast Master's have such an edge over other pet jobs when it comes to tanking.

If Wyverns could create the kind of enmity the Beast Master pets can - then they could tank.

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Originally Posted by bazookatooth

They may have an advantage, but not enough advantage and not in enough fights to warrant ever needing RUN over PLD. And half the time it's for reyke and gambit. Not to tank.

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That wasn't what you said.

You said the Paladin was miles above Rune Fencer on everything except some rabbit in Zi'tah.

You did not say the RUN had an advantage, but not enough of an advantage to warrant ever needing a RUN over PLD. Those are two completely different statements.

So I'll take the fact you had to go back and drastically change what you originally said to show you were incorrect with your initial comment and now realize that. Because I of course never said you needed to have a RUN over a PLD to tank anything.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Other than DRGs Super Jumping their way to safety while the wyvern takes the fall for them, I'd be shocked if there was any real way to get them to "tank" anything

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There isn't. At least not realistically.

Though I'm sure the Beast Master sympathizers in this thread will just say Dragoon pets were never meant to tank so therefore it's irrelevant - or dragoons aren't real pet jobs or what ever else they keep saying.

They should just admit Beast Master is superior to the other pet jobs when it comes to tanking (which is what I said) and stop making these silly arguments to try and hide that fact.

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Originally Posted by Dale

You basically just made my point for me. Though you probably don't realize it.

Now ask yourself this... "Why is that? Could it be because Beast Master pets make superior tanks when compared to the other pet jobs?"

I believe that might be the reason.

If other pet jobs could use their pets as tanks you had better believe they would be doing it.

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Go hop on Samurai or BLM and try fighting an Escha Ra'Aun tier 2-3 NM with just a BST pet as tank. We'll all wait with bated breath for the screen shots of your (sure to be) incredibly successful attempts.

Here's a quote from the guy who wrote that pup tanking guide to mull over while you do that. "The methods I am talking about are for people who have extreme tanking needs. I.E. you have REALLY good DDs. I have literally the best Beastmasters in the game in my LS, so I've had to find and adopt better ways to manage enmity. "

Good luck with your BST tank.

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Originally Posted by Dale

No it isn't irrelevant.

Enmity is a factor when it comes to considering how effective a tank is. That's just a fact.

Detailing different strategies of tanking doesn't change that.

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No. Enmity has nothing to do with considering how effective a tank is. That's just a fact.

The only thing that matters is did you survive, and did you win. If I"m with a healer, a buffer, and some pups and SMNs, how much enmity does my pet need to generate? Answer: Not a lot

The overall quantity of enmity is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that it's more than what the other party members are generating. I don't care if your BST can generate 87324687324687324 points of enmity and my puppet can only generate 7324687324687324 points. As long as nobody died and as long as he kept the mob's attention, the number is irrelevant. I really don't give 2 farts how much enmity you generate.

The actual amount of enmity only matters in attention-getting contests (I won't risk using the more popular terms on this forum). I'm really not even sure what the point of your comments are. Maybe you want to argue BST is the *best* pet job for tanking. While I don't agree, that's something that can be debated. At issue here is the simple fact of whether or not other jobs can do it and the answer is yes.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Their enmity generation is too low to effectively tank. Which was my point and why Beast Master's have such an edge over other pet jobs when it comes to tanking.

If Wyverns could create the kind of enmity the Beast Master pets can - then they could tank.

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Again like I said next lvl square peg stuff. All jugs do is deal dmg which creates very little enmity at all. Seriously I seen jugs used 2-3 moves at the start of a fight and me eating food has pulled hate. Therefore all I have to do is get dmg anywhere near what they do and take advantage of the vastly superior dt and buffing capabilities of wyverns so they lose less than everyone else in range eating AoEs. It's still in the works but I have managed to get a wyvern at near capped attack speed while still maintaining way more dt than jugs can even get.

Also no pup completely destroys bst on tanking

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

The one thing they do that might have served as any decent hate generation (Healing Breath) doesn't actually generate any hate because apparently NPC heals just don't generate hate for whatever reason. They cannot be made to use any other hate generation tool, I don't think THFs can Trick Attack onto them, and Super Jump only gets hate off the DRG, not transferred to the wyvern, AFAIK.

Other than DRGs Super Jumping their way to safety while the wyvern takes the fall for them, I'd be shocked if there was any real way to get them to "tank" anything

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Are we sure that is still the case for healing breath though? I mean npcs in battles generate cure enmity now as do trusts... I hear of people using auto cure cheats for enmity... they could've easily changed it... I'll probably get around to testing it eventually but my main focus is on pup right now which is a rather large amount of things to test with all the changes and general lack of posted testing.

Regardless my first idea was actually getting hate the same way melees do... dealing dmg minus the ws. Basically constantly spirit link over some hastes and marches some ja haste (need to test if hasso works) and some other buffs and watch the wyvern melee as fast as well buffed melees. Then give them tons of dt partly to keep them alive but largely to stem the loss of enmity from dmg to compensate for the lesser generation. Still a work in progress and it's largely a thought experiment and will probably be cotanking at best but a lot of pet strategies often include some bouncing as long as it's kept off the players and less of the directed dmg goes to the less defensive pets it's fine

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Originally Posted by bazookatooth

Go hop on Samurai or BLM and try fighting an Escha Ra'Aun tier 2-3 NM with just a BST pet as tank. We'll all wait with bated breath for the screen shots of your (sure to be) incredibly successful attempts.

Here's a quote from the guy who wrote that pup tanking guide to mull over while you do that. "The methods I am talking about are for people who have extreme tanking needs. I.E. you have REALLY good DDs. I have literally the best Beastmasters in the game in my LS, so I've had to find and adopt better ways to manage enmity. "

Good luck with your BST tank.

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As I've said, I've worked with Beast Master pets as tanks against all kinds of Notorious Monsters and battlefield bosses. They are quite impressive in that role and make excellent offensive tanks. They have a combination of both offense and defense that is unrivaled in my opinion.

Perhaps these samurai and black mage you mention just need to work on how to manage their threat a little better. Because they don't sound like very good DDs to me if they are incapable of working with a Beast Master pet/tank.

In any case: you are doing what is typical in these forums. You try to place every topic in the context of the extreme - as if the fact their pets can't tank some extremely difficult tier 3 NM that would probably take an army of support and a exceptionally well-geared Paladin to successfully tank anyway. Sorry but that doesn't mean they can't make good tanks.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No. Enmity has nothing to do with considering how effective a tank is. That's just a fact.
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Of course it does. One of the more ridiculous things I've read in awhile.

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Originally Posted by dasva

Again like I said next lvl square peg stuff. All jugs do is deal dmg which creates very little enmity at all. Seriously I seen jugs used 2-3 moves at the start of a fight and me eating food has pulled hate. Therefore all I have to do is get dmg anywhere near what they do and take advantage of the vastly superior dt and buffing capabilities of wyverns so they lose less than everyone else in range eating AoEs. It's still in the works but I have managed to get a wyvern at near capped attack speed while still maintaining way more dt than jugs can even get.

Also no pup completely destroys bst on tanking

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Damage still creates a lot of enmity. Maybe not as much as it used to - but it still creates a lot. Especially when it's on the scale those insane Beast Master pets have who can wipe out a screen full of incredible tough monsters in a matter of seconds.

So I'm not sure what jugs you have been using - but if they are doing such little damage a dragoon's wyvern can keep hate off of them I think it's safe to say that you are using the way wrong kind of jug.

Wyverns do have good defense. But they don't generate enough enmity to tank unless you take off your weapon and punch the monster to death. I'm all for damage dealers learning how to control their enmity - but I draw the line when they are expected to remove their weapons.

As far as this mythical puppet people keep talking about who supposedly destroys Beast Master pets - I'll believe it when I see it.