Quote:
Originally Posted by Damane
Jesus yea, SE could just remove the assult requirement of 3 ppl cause ppl that restarted from scratch like me cant find anyone to bother with assault anymore. They could create a separte area just for soloing assault so it shouldnt cause lag to others.
Reasons Why FFXI is Declining
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10-05-2013, 11:35 AMSpectreman
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10-05-2013, 12:52 PMTennotsukai
Pretty sure a good reason this game has declined is because there are several things broken in the game they neglect to fix. Fix Tourbillion, please!
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10-05-2013, 02:21 PMArconThe "grind spirit" was never there for any reasonable person. Grinding is stupid and always has been. The only reason why people did it back then is because they had to. The good content was at 75 and people did what they had to do to get to 75. And guess what, they didn't always do that either. Sometimes the grind was just too boring and tedious. That's why many people had one main job and maybe one or two others. Having more than three out of twenty jobs was just a horrible experience, hence people did not want to put up with it. Now think about how ridiculous that sounds. The game offers you 20 jobs (WotG era, but the same reasoning can be applied to the 18 in the ToAU era or 15 in the CoP/RotZ era). Of those 20 you can only play 3 without losing your mind (some could take more grinding, others less, I did with one job for about four years), because the game does not give you access to the others without sacrificing days of effort with no personal gain whatsoever. In what universe is that not fucked up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stompa
"Grind spirit" has to be one of the most ridiculous terms I've ever heard on these forums. Grind is by definition repetitive, mindless content. Content you can clear with one set routine, with no physical or intellectual effort whatsoever. How can any sane person like that? It defies human reasoning. The human mind looks for new experience, grind is by definition the exact opposite. Hence, if you like grind there's demonstrably something wrong with you. -
10-05-2013, 04:01 PMnyheen"grind spirit" was working pre aby. because they had to . they had to LFP (without keying or leeching) or start up your own exp pt. the whole pt system was working fine like that. but now it a big mess. so i guess this "new experience" you looking for is how things are now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
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10-05-2013, 04:14 PMArcon
I really could not care less for easy games. While difficulty is not an essential quality I'm looking for in a game, I do favor games that possess a significant degree of it. That is not this game. FFXI has a lot of problems (and a general lack of difficulty is one of my problems with the game), but that is entirely unrelated to grind. Grind is not difficult. I've leveled three jobs to 75 back in the day (over a total of 5 years). None of it was difficult. Slashing away at a crab for hundreds of hours is not difficult in the slightest. It's true that when I got to 75 I was very happy, but it had nothing to do with how hard the journey was, because it was piss easy. It had everything to do with finally getting to access the main content of a game I've been paying for for years at that point. I've been in a linkshell where everyone was doing events like Dynamis, Ouryu and B2, Limbus, sea/sky, etc., all of which I couldn't join because I hadn't met my crab quota yet. That was why I was happy. Not because I felt I achieved something, but because I could finally enjoy the game with my friends.
I had the exact same feelings of happiness when I leveled jobs to 99 in Abyssea. I could finally bring BLM and SCH to events (disregarding the fact that BLM and SCH lost most of its usefulness at just about that point, which wasn't really related).
People like you continually assume one thing, and everything you say is tainted by that assumption. You assume that leveling is an important part of the game. Some people of your persuasion even assume that it's the only part. "Why even play if you can get to 99 without lifting a finger?" I can't count how often I've heard that question, and its only effect is to illustrate that you have no idea what our position on the issue is. The game is completely unaffected by the leveling part of it, because the real game starts afterwards. Simply by the number of events (even disregarding the time you can invest in any of them) the endgame part vastly outweighs the leveling part.
And yes, you might actually like it. There might be others, too. But regardless of how much some people like it, the fact is that if most people did like it, they would still do it. The fact that they choose to skip it shows how unimportant it is to the majority of people.
That has no effect on people's perception of difficulty. Leveling is not difficult in the slightest. I like difficulty. FFXI used to have a few somewhat difficult events in the past. Compared to leveling, all of them were, and by a huge margin. You can't tell me a linked crawler is as tough to deal with as the Dynamis Jeuno AH pull (or really any pull, for that matter). Well, you can, but that won't make me take you any more seriously.
Edit:
Very much so. I've leeched several jobs to 99 and I like them and play them as much as the ones I've done before. This leveling system is pretty much perfect for me. The rest of the game is still horrible, and even the massive improvement in leveling doesn't help it at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by nyheen
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10-05-2013, 05:25 PMvienne
Arcon just wants to start a game and be 99, without leeching his job, he neither wants to grind. He just wants to start playing and do endgame/challenging content (with shinies) without the years/months of work.
Although the grind was there for all the time he was an active player it never kept him away from logging in almost every day(which to alot of people didnt feel like a grind neither did it to me).
The grind isnt the problem with this game, its far more diverse then blaming it just on that. -
10-05-2013, 06:42 PMAfaniaIf you don't like grinding, then RPG isn't for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
Can you please explain exactly HOW to keep players around without having to grind in an RPG game?
Grinding is part of RPG genre, period. Ever since 1980 era RPG is full of grind, and mostly about grind, now it's 2013 and it's still grind in past 30 years. You grind level, you grind gears, and you feel satisfied after you got to the level you want or gears you want, THAT is the fun of playing RPG, character development that needs time, something you can't experience in FTG RTS FPS etc. I've yet to play one RPG that has 0 grind element. Some RPG needs to grind longer and some needs to grind less, but grind is the core of RPG even if it's less grind. XIV has way less grinding than old XI, that doesn't mean grind doesn't exist in XIV, it's just less grind and less satisfaction after you hit level cap/obtained gears.
I also have to point out, for MMO like this, where the main purpose is to beat boss and obtain gears, you can't keep players around with 0 grind element. You just can't.
If you ONLY want action or strategy but 0 grind element, there's FTG, there's RTS, and there's chess, which doesn't need grind to play with other players. Take away the grind element RPG isn't RPG anymore. And yes, ppl enjoy grind for past 30 years, don't deny it. There's a reason why most JRPG has to add secret boss/secret item or some sort, for players to grind.
And if someone want to make progress without killing braincell, let them grind. I don't enjoy every kind of grind, but if the result of the grind is rewarding, I usually enjoy it. I don't always want 1000 action, because I'm not always in the mood to play FTG/RTS/chess game w/e, grind style gameplay= I can always make progress by doing easy things, as long as the reward is worth the effort. -
10-05-2013, 08:12 PMArconWrong. I love RPGs and I've played many for as long as I've been playing games (which was pretty much my entire life).Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Most of your argument is about grind in general. I'll say something about that in a bit, but keep in mind that we're talking about old school FFXI leveling here.
How did I manage to keep playing a game for years despite having all the jobs I cared for at 99? Mainly interesting events. Difficult events that require multiple attempts and change in strategy to eventually complete and that can be interesting and intense despite having done it multiple times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
In non-MMOG RPGs you can (and many games do) extend their life time through an engaging story, interesting support characters, involving gameplay, many side quests/missions to complete and a big world to explore. All of that is part of an RPG and none of that requires repetition at all, let alone grind.
That said, the term "grind" itself is not very clearly defined. People use it to describe anything repetitive, but that alone does not describe my idea of the word. Personally I wouldn't call it a grind unless it also didn't require any effort. If the process has been spiced up, it can be interesting despite repetition. However, that almost requires some difficulty attached to it. Dynamis was like that, which is why I didn't mind doing it for years. It required everyone to pay attention and bring their A-game every time or it would result in shitty rewards in the best case and wipes all around in the worst case.
Leveling isn't anywhere like that. It's absolutely mindless. I could literally do it blind, and I could already do that after my first few hours of it. That's what I call grind, and that's what games can most definitely do without. See blow.
Wrong. Grind wasn't part of Baldur's Gate 15 years ago, nor is it part of Skyrim. I don't know how it was like before then because I didn't play any RPGs from back then, but I at least know it wasn't part of pen and paper RPGs, ever, and those date back further than any video game RPG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
I love character development. Characters don't just progress through levels though. That definition never described FFXI (at least not after the level 50 cap increase). Character development also encompasses skills, spells, abilities and equipment, among which FFXI most prominently features the latter in its end-game state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Wrong. Grind is not an essential part of RPG. Take away the grind and you get a good RPG. There are RPG with no grind and there are non-RPGs with a lot of grind (racing games, RTS, even FPS, just look at CoD's player progression model).Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
I don't know of a single person who does, and I would bet good money that even you don't. Every time you grind to do something it's time wasted that could be used to do something new and exciting instead, and even if you won't admit it to yourself, that's something you would rather do. What you enjoy is not the grind but the reward for the grind. And you use that to justify the grind itself, but that doesn't make it good. Where you enjoy hitting a button fifty thousand times to feel good about something you acquired, I'd prefer acquiring it through a good strategy that I took a while to perfect. And when I do acquire it in the end, I feel more satisfied than killing a million colibris.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
I don't mind investing the same time as someone who grinds their fingers off, even more, as long as the journey to get there is involving and entertaining. Leveling was never that, in all the time I played. If it was to you, congratulations, because FFXI must have been one hell of a game for you. I wish I felt the same way, I would be much easier to please. Instead I'm here demanding fun of my games. -
10-06-2013, 10:25 PMFrankReynolds
Old school leveling is still there. The people who want to do it are not. Case closed. Abyssea burns would have never taken off if people had preferred the grind. Never. Only RMT would have ever done them.
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10-06-2013, 11:05 PMCamiie
Opinion: Complete, total, and utter lack of job balance.
Reason: People fall in love with the look or play style of a job and pour their heart and soul into it. Then they realize that job is not needed or welcome in any sort of serious activity no matter how hard they try. They can't even outdo other jobs even when those jobs are not played or geared nearly as well.
Conclusion: People get discouraged that they have to gear other jobs to support the one they love and know that they will never get to use their beloved job on high-end content no matter what they do. They find fewer jobs that are even worth leveling and thus have less content to keep them occupied.
Solution: Don't be afraid to boost the offensive/defensive/support power and useful abilities of jobs that don't currently have anything to offer in high end content.