FFXI Job Direction?? Dev Team, Please Respond.

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Inb4 someone tells me you can't fit enough gear into 80 slots to play melee RDM effectively again, despite already having shown a hypothetical 72-77 slot Inventory that covers everything you'd need out at any given time in the RDM subforum.

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Because you can't, especially if you're dipping your hands into every cookie jar like a "good RDM" should be. Abyssea's somewhat negated the need for Convert and hMP sets, but once 91-99 content rolls around, it's a safe bet we'll be needing them cluttering our inventories again. And once you drop atmas, our melee drops like a rock and the glaring gap in equipment options for melee only becomes more obvious. Now, the inventory issue could be avoided if we could also equip things from our Sack and Satchel, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Thus, we go back to needing better hybrid gear that isn't a trashy compromise so that maybe, just maybe, a RDM could hold some echo drops, let seals fall to their inventory, and have room for other miscellaneous drops without playing the inventory game while magically doing everything everyone demands of them.

Oh geez, where to start.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

I pretty much had all there was to offer for the job, and in terms of the melee game, that hasn't changed all that much.

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POIDH.

I'm also shocked that you're so blase about RDM's access to a WS as powerful as Chant du Cygne. Nothing's "changed all that much"? It's quite the opposite. Chant du Cygne is on par with the most powerful Empyrean weaponskills like Victory Smite and Blade: Hi (among others). A MNK or a NIN without access to their Empyrean weaponskill via a WoE Empyrean or Full Empyrean is simply subpar, and it's no different for RDMs serious about their DDing.

Also, new r/ex gear such as Zelus Tiara (+8% Haste) or Calmecac Trousers (+3% Haste/+2% DA/+2% TA ... and it's not a drop from Proto-Ultima or a mission reward from ASA) are not big improvements for serious melee RDMs?

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Originally Posted by Seriha

nor will I sit here and demand someone have a level 90 Empyrean just to enter the conversation.

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Sorry, but that's the way it's always been for the 'weaker' DDs. They simply have to work harder to compete, and it's not unreasonable for them to need a WoE or Full Empyrean to enter into the equation. DDs have never been on equal ground.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

can't guarantee a RDM a spot in a party if a leader has a choice over a WHM or BLM.

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My RDM, from 49-90+, always received fast invites for Abyssea exp. Leaders like me because I don't suck. I can heal better than most WHMs simply because I pay attention, and DDs love me because I keep every single DD in the ally hasted (it's just that important). I can nuke and crowd-control better than most BLMs simply because I pay attention, infuse the right Atma for the job (if I'm taking on that role), and I use proper Enfeebling and Nuking gear (it helps that I played BLM for years before leveling RDM).

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Originally Posted by Seriha

And we all know the moment a RDM starts slacking at their "mage duties," you and everyone else so vehemently against the notion will throw some form of hissyfit by picking a fight, kicking them, and/or taking some kind of screenshot and running off to BG with it like it makes you a pro.

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Don't want to be kicked from an Abyssea group? Suck Less, pay attention, and adjust your playstyle to address the needs of the party/alliance. I've never been bored enough to pull out a sword (even though it's fully capped and merited) because I can analyze a given situation and adjust my mage play to further complement and strengthen my party/alliance. Not everything demands the full healing or nuking power of WHM and BLM respectively, and RDM can adjust its approach to make kills faster and smoother. RDM is very powerful in the right hands.

Also, no one gets kicked from Abyssea exp groups these days, not that I've seen since no one seems to care, and I can't recall anyone being kicked from +1 seal NM groups. Even the people who really deserve it like full Aurore THFs, NINs, BLUs, DNCs, or BSTs (I kid you not, I've seen more than one full Aurore BST -.-).

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Originally Posted by Seriha

stop talking like ... Abyssea is forever.

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Actually, I'm on record as saying the exact opposite.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

stop talking like every RDM is meleeing in full errant

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But that's exactly what happens, although these days it's full Teal instead of full Errant. Or another smattering of decidedly non-melee gear.

On another note, you can't hide behind Guru status here. You can and will be called out when you're off-base, and if you're smart, you'll see it as an opportunity to reconsider your stances or learn something.

EDIT: Haha, I shouldn't have bothered to reply. Greatguardian nailed it again, and in far fewer words than I used. I tip my hat to you, good sir.

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POIDH.

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For 75, TP set was basically Joyeuse/Justice/V.Stone/Walahra/PCC/Suppa/Brutal/Goliard/Dusk/ACC ring/Rajas/Cerb/Speed/ASA/Dusk. It's a haste heavy build with a spritz of ATK and ACC, both of which are still a RDM deficiency. Newer gear that's come since doesn't change much since you could cap Haste before, nor does it really change the ACC/ATK situation much. Some I've chucked. Some I've sold. Goading's more accessible than Speed despite lesser haste. Atheling is a legitimate upgrade. The C. trousers are debatable next to the ASA, as it translates to a big ACC gap where the minimally gained DA/TA could be lost in misses (nevermind Joyeuse still being one of our primary weapons diluting that perk). Beyond that, our TP sets are pretty much still the same with WS considering things like Anguinus over Warwolf. Once atma exit the picture (Hence my Abyssea comment), our good WS, which are mult-hitters, further exacerbate the juggling against STR/ACC/ATK and secondary mods thanks to lesser base skill and no native melee traits.

Not quite a thousand words, but in absence of a pic, you'll have to deal with it.

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Sorry, but that's the way it's always been for the 'weaker' DDs. They simply have to work harder to compete, and it's not unreasonable for them to need a WoE or Full Empyrean to enter into the equation. DDs have never been on equal ground.

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Pit Strong DD vs. Weak DD with equal effort put into both (nevermind the impossibility short of the exact same gear) and it's still no contest for the weaker. That's part of the problem. People flock to the stronger by default even if it means taking a gimp Strong against the pimpest of the Weak that would outdo them.

Meanwhile, your head's still up your butt if you think Empyreans or even WoE WS are standard.

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My RDM, from 49-90+, always received fast invites for Abyssea exp.

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So, by admitting you didn't level the job the old way, you've pretty much confessed no first-hand experience on the actual issues myself and others have brought up over the years. Hint: This isn't a problem that just materializes at 90.

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Leaders like me because I don't suck.

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Leaders on your server are clairvoyant? I must learn their secrets to constructing the perfect PUG and how seeing a name and possible search comment divulges one's full potential. Or maybe this is where you say you only EXP with your LS or a static. Most don't.

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<lines of self-back patting>

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POIDH time? Is this where I say I'd been my preferred LS RDM doing the back-line gig in various events prior to the cap increases where myself and others felt the brunt of pink magery with no hinted direction from SE other than a seeming sense of inaction? I mean, I guess we could look forward to the job map, but that's not really any different than the years we sat around before that hoping for fixes and changes.

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On another note, you can't hide behind Guru status here. You can and will be called out when you're off-base, and if you're smart, you'll see it as an opportunity to reconsider your stances or learn something.

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I must have been asleep or something when I conveyed that posting on Alla somehow makes me unconditionally right. Please link. This isn't the first time you've brought it up, let alone as yet another attempt at an insult toward myself or anyone who posts there. Yes, I've called you out on your own behavior here and its carry-over to BG, and it seems I've struck a nerve. When you can convey that precious knowledge of yours without running away for support or poisoning it with your sour attitude, maybe you might actually teach me something. I know your eyes are rolling right now, so prepare for it again, but I do learn things when there's actually something to be learned.

Otherwise, I'll just give you the advice that you're never going to change my mind about RDM in its current position, as we're intrinsically conflicting in both personalities and play styles. I, however, want options for the job. You? "Screw 'em! They're retards."

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Because you can't, especially if you're dipping your hands into every cookie jar like a "good RDM" should be. Abyssea's somewhat negated the need for Convert and hMP sets, but once 91-99 content rolls around, it's a safe bet we'll be needing them cluttering our inventories again. And once you drop atmas, our melee drops like a rock and the glaring gap in equipment options for melee only becomes more obvious. Now, the inventory issue could be avoided if we could also equip things from our Sack and Satchel, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Thus, we go back to needing better hybrid gear that isn't a trashy compromise so that maybe, just maybe, a RDM could hold some echo drops, let seals fall to their inventory, and have room for other miscellaneous drops without playing the inventory game while magically doing everything everyone demands of them.

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As I recall, your primary complaint with my inventory was the lack of Dark Magic Skill gear. Frankly, I was still being very generous with that set. An ideal RDM isn't ever, ever going to keep their full Nuke sets and staves out while they have their TP/WS sets and Swords out. Why? Because we have a Mog Sack and a Mog Satchel for those things.

RDM changes roles in the field. Even with only 80 active inventory, you have plenty of room for things that you are going to need available to you *At any one point in time*. If the situation changes and you need to swap to staves and grab your Nuke sets? Chuck TP/WS/Swords into your Sack and grab Nuke/Staves/etc out of it. It takes 30 seconds.

Here's the thing: Warrior is only good at one thing. Being a Warrior, aka Hitting stuff. Black mage is only good at one thing. Being a Black Mage, aka nuking shit. Red Mage is good at everything. Can you reasonably expect Red Mage to be better at blowing things up than Black Mage? No, but it is (was). Sorry, BLMs. Prior to Elemental Celerity and the crapload of Nuking buffs BLM has received post-Scars of Abyssea, RDM was clearly the superior nuking choice.

Can you reasonably expect a Red Mage to ever be able to Melee DD as effectively as a MNK, a NIN, a WAR, or a THF? No. Never. Not in a million years. Why? What can that MNK, or NIN, or WAR do aside from DD effectively and tank? Can they Nuke? Can they heal? No. These are specialized jobs, who excel at their chosen function. Red Mage is not a specialized job concept. It is an amalgam of different specializations that it can swap between in the field.

No matter what, all jobs and roles in FFXI are always best played via specialization. Specialized DDs are the strongest DDs. Specialized Healers are the strongest healers. Specialized Buffers are the strongest Buffers.

Red Mage is not a job designed to be able to do everything at the same time. Red Mage is a job that is designed to be able to change its specialization, and occasionally utilize multiple, mutually appreciative, simultaneous specializations, without changing jobs.

Can you heal, buff, Dia, and DD effectively at the same time? Hell, I hope you can, easily. Healing, Buffing, and the Dia spell are acceptably proficient without the use of the Main/Sub slot.

Can you heal, buff, Nuke, and DD effectively at the same time? No. Why? Nuking and DD'ing conflict. You cannot use staves while DD'ing, and you cannot nuke effectively in a sword.

What does this mean? If you're doing something which obviously conflicts with another potential specialization, store the gear for said specialization in your sack/satchel. If you suddenly need to disengage and start nuking/kiting, toss your DD gear into your satchel and grab your Nuking gear out of it. I'm sure you can handle autorunning for 30-60 seconds while you spam enter and scroll down, right?

I really don't want to see the "I want Hybrid Gear that's better than all the specialized gear combined" argument brought up again, but it's not like its gained any more merit since the last ten times it's been thrown out. Keeping conflicting sets out at the same time is stupid. There are some sets that should never, ever be stored, like PDT, MDT, and Refresh/Idle. But really, why the heck would I need instant access to my HMP set if I'm in Abyssea? Or my Bio set if I'm using Dia on everything? Work smarter, not harder.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'll bet an AH RDM can cure better than an AH PLD. Ugh. I'm so frustrated. PLD was billed as a Swordsman with Healing magic, but no one lets me main heal in parties. Why does everyone expect PLD to be on the front line? What's the point of even giving them access to Apollo's Staff if they're not going to Cure? It's downright insulting, SE!

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Bad argument to start. Nice try but PLD has been one of the few jobs that actually lives up to concept and how it was sold. The knight in shining armor that uses a sword and shield and protects his allies. Hell, even the weak white magic is up to par with what you expect out of a Final Fantasy paladin.

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Protip: Red Mage is easily one of the single most powerful stand-alone jobs in the entire game. Players who are good enough to play it effectively while melee'ing appropriately already do so and no one with a brain complains.

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Counterpoint: The job is currently not streamlined and suffers in actual party content because of it. Keep in mind that this game as a whole is built around partying, which already proves the job fails when its components are not all relevant in the very thing the game was designed around. It's sad that some people here cannot wrap their brains around the idea of a hybrid job being capable of choosing their role and being beneficial to their LS/groups instead of having to be pigeonholed into one role alone.

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Here's the thing, though. Good RDMs also know when to chuck the sword and throw on the staff. There is no "Always Wearing A Sword" approach to a job like RDM that will ever be successful. Staves enhance spells. Swords enhance frontline damage. When your duties are limited to Restorative/Buff duties, you aren't losing much by equipping a sword (CdC will outweigh the benefit you get from Cure Potency+, and you're able to use RR/Apoc/MM without much of a loss). When your duties include Enfeebles on resistant NMs, any sort of Nukes, Movement/Kiting, or the versatility granted by being able to change your Main/Sub slots, you wear a bloody staff/wand/whatnot and use Mage atmas.

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I felt you were going to play this card, but fine. Gameplay currently favors the backline caster with buffs much more than any other aspect of the job itself. Nukes didn't even matter until Abyssea, Atma and all that gear that was covered in +MAB entered the picture. Furthermore, front lining does not and should not include buff duties, as you already lose valuable melee time with what we have to cast on ourselves. Occasional utility is fine because you can pitch in during emergencies (much like the class I mentioned in my last post can when front-lining), but that is not part of what you should be doing in the front lines.

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RDM is one of the most inventory and macro-heavy jobs in the game to do well. But I tell you what, the fact that not everyone with level 90, 10,000 gil and a pulse can a be sooper dooper awesome magic swordsman is not a problem with the Red Mage job. It is a problem with shitty players who only have level 90, 10,000 gil, and a pulse.

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Right, the job is an exclusive club. Screw the people that liked the job from previous games, only the elite get to play Red Mage! /sarcasm

The job used to fill a niche as being able to cover heals in an age where White Mage was the only real healer and Summoner could pseudo cover until you got to mobs that actually hit hard. It was in high demand not because of versatility or anything else, but because it could cure, haste and refresh, which were the three things parties cared about during the leveling process alone. By the time you hit the level cap everyone else is conditioned to expect that from a RDM to let the "real" melee and "real" nukers do their thing. Even with all the whining about RDM not being enough of a healer, I still got dragged along to cover heals.

Sure, we have Avesta and the clowns that immitated him ruining things for the rest of us who don't give two damns about soloing HNMs and gods (and in my case wish it had been nerfed to hell for the sake of class balance), but what the melee camp wants is simply the option to open up. As mentioned before, that is currently not the case, and the developers have basically been choosing random things to give our class instead of saying "well, this is what we're gonna do with you guys". Hopefully the upcoming posts on class direction will shed some light and will put the questions and issues to rest. If the answers are as definite as I hope they are, then I'll be able to drop the matter and move on.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Bad argument to start. Nice try but PLD has been one of the few jobs that actually lives up to concept and how it was sold. The knight in shining armor that uses a sword and shield and protects his allies. Hell, even the weak white magic is up to par with what you expect out of a Final Fantasy paladin.

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I'm rather positive he was being sarcastic >.>

When were you playing that you would take a SNM main healing over rdm. Really rdm has been a healer in exp ever since the player base came around to seeing how retarded it was to exp on IT++ making 2 healers pointless. Endgame they went to the thier main role of debuffs, back heals, party buffs. Rdm is not the olny job that is really differnet then other games. Everytime some one spouts off that crap I really wish they didn't give 11 the Final Fatasy name

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Originally Posted by Eeek

Also, new r/ex gear such as Zelus Tiara (+8% Haste) or Calmecac Trousers (+3% Haste/+2% DA/+2% TA ... and it's not a drop from Proto-Ultima or a mission reward from ASA) are not big improvements for serious melee RDMs?

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Compare a 75 DD to a 90 DD.

Now compare a 75 Melee Rdm to a 90 Melee Rdm

So yeah while Rdm melee gear might have improved I can safely say that pretty much every other job except Blm, Sch, and Smn has received more powerful melee gear then Rdm.

So excuse me for not being exactly enthusiastic when every other job found bill gates credit card in their christmas stockings. Sure we got something too, but finding coal in out stocking compared to everyone else is hardly a buff.

And really, when reading your post of what you do in an average party I couldn't find one thing that a Blm/Whm couldn't do nearly as well if not better then Rdm in those situations.

The only advantage Rdm would have over Sch/Whm and Blm/Whm for what you are doing is MP management and there are bigger issues in your party if you are running out of MP.

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Originally Posted by Malacite

Well, for starters they could maybe allow Avatar's favor to work on the freaking avatars themselves and not just the PT. Removing the 15% damage penalty would be nice too, since they're gimp enough as it is (I still think that was an unnecessary and back-handed drawback they put into that ability)

And BPs DO suck for damage, even the 70's unless you're inside abyssea and even then it's irrelevant - The whole big draw to them prior was because you could deal 1k+ damage to things like Kirin and not eat dirt because of it. Well, Abyssea kinda throws the whole notion of consequences out the window for the most part. Between Infinite-MP WHM's with Cure 6 and obscenely powerful weaponskills like Ukon's Fury, there's not much point to having a SMN around for damage.

And lord knows as others have pointed out, it's not good for much else anymore. Just about every buff a SMN can provide, other jobs can as well and in some cases they do it better. The only real reason to have a SMN around right now is for Voidwatch, and even that is totally random as it gives you absolutely no clue what pacts to use, and with a 1 minute timer it can get rather hectic.


A good start for fixing SMN would be something that players have been asking for since the game came first came out, which is individual timers for each blood pact.

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Go try Voidwatch. You will want SMN or RNGs as the prime Damage tools on thosw fight (especially on higher Tiers).

Besides Avatar's Favor has some really nice buffs for melees in store outside of abyssea, and SMN can easy reach teh 50% cure potency cap makeing them also an excellent healer outside of abyssea, playing a hybrid healer/buff role in a melee pt is not farfetched and could work, if that damn Avatar favor would have a great reach effect then 10' ¬.¬

Only in abyssea does rdm lose out to other jobs just subing whm. Outside of abyssea rdm and whm are still the best healers to have in your tank party. Cure 6 cost to much MP when outside of abyssea you tank should never need that kind of single cure power though out the fight. Also with out a rdm and refresh 2 good luck with mp.

Void walker is nice content that is challenging but with out rewards for all jobs people won't do it. Why should a whm/rdm/sch/healer do content that offers nothing they can't get else were with far less effort. Abyssea showed the player base a event were all jobs can get great gear not only melee or only mages.

Regardless, I think the road map for jobs would be really good right about now to stop all speculation....and allow people to comment on things that are going to happen so the dev team can actually make informed decisions based off what we say.

One thing is for sure....a lot of people been asking adjustments for summoner...I'd be really disappointed if SE does not listen to the people.

I'm sure we will get a road map soon. Them even saying it in the minor update notes is a big step in the right direction. Couple of years ago we were lucky to get hints at vanfest and update notes week or 2 before the update.

What imm'm really wondering about is how they going to let us use the test server, is it going to be log on anytime we want to, random invites or sever invites so on. If we can use gear that we have on our char so we can get a realisc view of how the content will play out for your avg player not going though on GM god mode like how they show off for community sites.

Guessing the Job road map will come a bit before August, I hope to see it by July and not just before the August update.

I'm somewhat scared of this road map, I really wonder if they have even considered anything we have said about any jobs or will it be...."here you go enjoy we are sure you will like it."

They listen some what holding final judgment till I see what knid of damage boost pld jas get, and if they used any of the ideas for cover mention on here. Might not have to wait and see if they listen to us.

._./\._. Time for foood!

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I think you got that backwards. What SMN does, is exactly like in past FFs. We just deal damage. What we complain about is that all other parts of the job is not working. I can't debuff, because it isn't worthwhile. I can't buff, because they are all useless. I can't heal, because the recast is too long. I can't give out refresh, because I need to assault my pet to build TP for nukes. And spirits are not even worth mentioning.

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Earthen Armor and Hastega are amazing buffs. You don't have to build tp to nuke, you just do it to do more damage, so you have to choose between enhanced damage or more magical/refresh support. A lot of the buffs can be used and give decent effects. Enspells and ATK+ are decent DD bonuses, not BRD or COR powerful mind you, but still better than sitting there whining about how useless you are. You also don't have to only use refresh favor. You could use MAB favor, etc.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

While it is nice, my Earthen Armors have never saved anyone. Either it is on, and they never get any high damage TP move, or it wears off and they get hit right after. And it can't be denied that spending 120 MP over and over again on something that "may" help is a complete disaster in game design. You could as well make RR last 5 minutes, and have all mages constantly re-applying RR "incase I die".

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It's called knowing your situation. A lot of the new mobs have dangerous moves that can one shot you. This trend will only continue outside of abyssea. Some mobs have the ability to hit you with weakness, making their normal melee hits likely to kill you, unless you got EA+Scherzo. EA + Scherzo is a massive boost to things with powerful AoEs as well. Meteor is suddenly easy to handle, Astral Flow is made into a joke, and any tp move that doesn't inflict death is survivable, even if it's an AoE like Citadel Buster.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I'd agree with you if SE changed Earthen Armor to 15 min duration. Until then you are just sponging MP while playing the lottery that your tank should end up 1-shot suddenly. I might be insane, but I don't think it should cost you 2000 MP to save a tank from death. Look at BRD, it pays ZERO MP for the same thing, which is vastly superior in support.

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Wrong.

BRD's Scherzo is free, but only half as strong. It also takes up one of 2 spells a BRD can put up, halving any Refresh or Offensive bonus they can give. That's a horrible argument you're trying to use against EA. Also, all of these new fights are 30 minutes long, and with a decent EA duration, it caps you at 1200mp cost, even less if you have the 450 summoning magic build putting you at 3:30 duration. On top of that, it doesn't have to be a hit that would one shot you, but a hit that would put you in danger of being killed immediately afterwards.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

You can play classic SMN just fine though, because if all you do is 70BP it over and over, the blood boon and elemental siphon will let you keep going far longer than any other BLM. But I doubt anyone has complained about the damage output of SMN. It is everything else, spirits, wards, low level rage pacts, perpetuation, mana cede, etc. that needs adjustments. Paying 100 MP for 100 more damage is just ridiculous. I'm not touching mana cede unless I'm in Abyssea these days.

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No one's saying those aren't valid points. I however prefer to look at the upside to summoner currently. SMN is the only job capable of high Physical or Magical damage bursts at will. SMN has the best of the emergency prevention tools, which stacks to become greatly enhanced with BRD's song. SMN lends itself well to zerg fights. SMN can offr mild support enhancements. SMN can offer crowd control through despawning adds or in emergencies can attempt a sleepga.

Sure there's room for improement, but that goes for every job. SMN is in a really good place right now.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Only in abyssea does rdm lose out to other jobs just subing whm. Outside of abyssea rdm and whm are still the best healers to have in your tank party. Cure 6 cost to much MP when outside of abyssea you tank should never need that kind of single cure power though out the fight. Also with out a rdm and refresh 2 good luck with mp.

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This is half true. There are certainly much better refreshers then Red mage due to most other types of refresh stacking with whm's via /rdm.

And while certainly Red Mages are in fact better healers now, at 99 all the other refreshers will receive a huge buff to their healing when they receive Cure 4 with refresh and convert.

99Brd/Rdm is looking to be a stupidly powerful job with +35% haste, +12 MP/tick refresh, Cure 4, Convert, +80% slow (at least between Brd + Whm). Rdm will not likely be able to compete with this unless they receive some powerful new enfeebles to make up the lack of stackable refresh and less then White Mage powered healing.

Page two, no no no!

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Originally Posted by Return1

Sure there's room for improement, but that goes for every job. SMN is in a really good place right now.

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I'm glad there are other people happy with the job. SMN could use 2 things:

1) Some sort of pet: enmity tool not attached to BP: Rage. SMN can't do much outside the scope of "one BP every 45 seconds" without serious risk of dying. Good gear doesn't fix the problem.

2) Staff mastery. SMN is the only job that melees exclusively with staff. If SE is ever going to make a job master of this weapon, SMN deserves it. Throw in some simple staff stances just for fun: 1) that turns every hit into a cross between Spirit Taker and Aspir Samba (low %age damage converted to MP, but also works on undead) 2) that turns every hit into a cross between Drain Samba and Stoneskin (low %age of damage restores stoneskin)

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Meanwhile, your head's still up your butt if you think Empyreans or even WoE WS are standard.

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For some DD jobs, yes, they absolutely are standard. The weapsonskills are just that good. I can understand folks who don't want to pursue a full Empyrean, but the WoE Empyreans are a reasonable and powerful option that are simple to complete on any schedule with or without assistance from friends. Every DD who takes their DD jobs even somewhat-seriously, and does not own a Relic/Empyrean, should have a WoE Empyrean or be working on one provided the weapon grants them a top-tier WS. Some of the weaponskills are not worth the effort.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

So, by admitting you didn't level the job the old way, you've pretty much confessed no first-hand experience on the actual issues myself and others have brought up over the years. Hint: This isn't a problem that just materializes at 90.

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Do we really need to drag out the 'players have to level their jobs in 4k/hour crab parties to be a good player' argument? Smart, dedicated players will play well, and poor players will be poor. Always.

And I like how I have no first-hand experience with RDM's issues despite being around the job for years, studying the job, gearing the job, and playing it extensively in the field. Anyways, most good players are well aware of the capabilities of jobs they do not have leveled. It's a part learning the game.

I've never meleed on my RDM in a group setting because I'm fully conscious of RDM's abilities and what contributions are needed from me for the group to be successful (it's as simple as looking at the party/ally list). Playing RDM feels like playing a God on the battlefield, and that's without /SCH (I don't enjoy leveling, but it's at 30 now and I will force it to 49 somehow ; ; ). RDM isn't primarily a one-trick pony like WHM or BLM - RDM can do damn near everything I'd want to do as a mage in the field. I absolutely love RDM's ability to switch on-the-fly between defensive/supportive play and offensive play, and I can make all sorts of subtle adjustments to play that vary from mob to mob and from area to area.

If I wanted to melee, I would have leveled an actual melee. While I did build a RDM melee set before taking a break (<3 summertime), I only intend to use it for fun in solo play. I don't care to put in the necessary effort to make RDM an effective melee in group play. If I ever make an Empyrean, it'll be a Twashtar without question.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

I mean, I guess we could look forward to the job map, but that's not really any different than the years we sat around before that hoping for fixes and changes.

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RDM's been an incredibly powerful job for years, so I can understand SE's hesitation in tweaking it too much. Something does need to happen in the next 6 months or so, though. It's easy to assume that the Devs will somehow boost RDM's enfeebling capabilities, but as happened with Break, they seem hesitant. I do think Cure5 will happen by 99.

I'm not sure what else the Devs would be willing to do. They could adjust RDM-casted enfeebles to be inherently more accurate on mobs/NMs that are highly resistant or outright immune to certain enfeebles, but that could break solo RDM. I'm afraid we'll mainly see additional tiers of spells as happened with Refresh 2. I wouldn't be surprised to see spells like Para3/Slow3/Phalanx3 show up in the next-tier merit system after level 99.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

without running away for support or poisoning it with your sour attitude, maybe you might actually teach me something.

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I'm fully aware that you don't care about my opinions simply because they're different than yours. That's understandable and incredibly common as has been demonstrated through psychological research. I write more for others than for you. I don't know why RDMs across all FFXI RDM Forums are so strangely obsessed with RDM melee while most RDMs I've encountered and spoken with in-game over the years don't care much about it. I write for myself and those who don't want the job so fundamentally adjusted as to cripple it.

I write because these official forums are probably the among biggest threats to FFXI in its history.

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I write because these official forums are probably the among biggest threats to FFXI in its history.

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I'm sorry, but if you think meaningful RDM melee will spell the end of FFXI (It's not all about damage, if you've been paying attention to any ideas floating around), that's your problem. Bad players will be bad players regardless of what happens, but to be so vehemently against adding potentially useful tools for the good players to make them that much better just has me scratching my head as it conflicts with that sense of skill and efficiency you're trying to impose of the caster-only role. We're otherwise conveying added risk should yield added reward, not more party hassles just to get people angry because someone somewhere was doinitrong.

So, while you might think Cure V a good addition, the conflict of opinion here is that it's only further homogenizing the mage jobs instead of diversifying them and giving them all reasons to stand out. At current, a 99 RDM/WHM and a 99 SCH/RDM aren't going to be all that different. And in the game's current climate, neither job are particularly a first choice. Just as we can't hope blindly for good updates toward a job, we can't hope blindly for content that would make either relevant again. Neither job are solely healers. Cure V will undoubtedly push both in that direction with no strong hope of dabbling in their other aspects since both will have haste, refresh, status cures, enfeebles, and a big cure. Exit Abyssea and a RDM won't be aggressively healing while throwing out nukes. MP just doesn't support it. SCH conflicts through Arts use, as well. RDM's simple distinction from SCH should be the frontline aspect, as SCHs are the ones stuck with the historically lesser damage staves, a diminished club proficiency compared to WHM, and no native skills or traits to imply they should be swinging much, whereas RDM at least gets Composure and Enspells with Refresh and Convert arguably conceptualized so they don't have to rest between fights, thus losing TP in the old days. We, the players, unfortunately perverted that intent into brute force healing.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I'm glad there are other people happy with the job. SMN could use 2 things:

1) Some sort of pet: enmity tool not attached to BP: Rage. SMN can't do much outside the scope of "one BP every 45 seconds" without serious risk of dying. Good gear doesn't fix the problem.

2) Staff mastery. SMN is the only job that melees exclusively with staff. If SE is ever going to make a job master of this weapon, SMN deserves it. Throw in some simple staff stances just for fun: 1) that turns every hit into a cross between Spirit Taker and Aspir Samba (low %age damage converted to MP, but also works on undead) 2) that turns every hit into a cross between Drain Samba and Stoneskin (low %age of damage restores stoneskin)

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1.) I would like to see this due to the fact that its hard when your in a jam I hate to have to use spirits to attempt to get the mob off me, I would much rather have what you say sounds good to me.

2.) Not a fix to summoner but defiantly should of been done a long long time ago.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

This is half true. There are certainly much better refreshers then Red mage due to most other types of refresh stacking with whm's via /rdm.

And while certainly Red Mages are in fact better healers now, at 99 all the other refreshers will receive a huge buff to their healing when they receive Cure 4 with refresh and convert.

99Brd/Rdm is looking to be a stupidly powerful job with +35% haste, +12 MP/tick refresh, Cure 4, Convert, +80% slow (at least between Brd + Whm). Rdm will not likely be able to compete with this unless they receive some powerful new enfeebles to make up the lack of stackable refresh and less then White Mage powered healing.

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Refresh 2 is still better then /rdm refresh. Not to mention they can keep refresh 2 on them self for 9mins with little effort getting the gear needed for it. Way it is now relic brds are more lol then rdms. Those people I would feel sorry for but for the most part they were given it to begin with.

Sure, refresh 2 is more powerful then refresh, but ultimately it only adds 3(4) more MP tick as opposed to inviting a Brd which will add 9.

I'd feel MUCH safer in the hands of a Whm+Brd at 99 with both of them having 12 MP/tick then Whm+Rdm with 6 (unless something changes)

The issue with Brd is more that for NMs killing speed isn't that large of an issue anymore since the majority of the fight you are trying to proc anyway, and for exp they aren't required anymore and even with a Brd it only affects 1/3 of the alliance unlike a Rdm that can Dia III and give all 18 people a +17.6% attack bonus.

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

1.) I would like to see this due to the fact that its hard when your in a jam I hate to have to use spirits to attempt to get the mob off me, I would much rather have what you say sounds good to me.

2.) Not a fix to summoner but defiantly should of been done a long long time ago.

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#2 is a fix in the sense that SE acknowledged years ago that there needed to be a job that specialized in staff.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Sure, refresh 2 is more powerful then refresh, but ultimately it only adds 3(4) more MP tick as opposed to inviting a Brd which will add 9.

I'd feel MUCH safer in the hands of a Whm+Brd at 99 with both of them having 12 MP/tick then Whm+Rdm with 6 (unless something changes)

The issue with Brd is more that for NMs killing speed isn't that large of an issue anymore since the majority of the fight you are trying to proc anyway, and for exp they aren't required anymore and even with a Brd it only affects 1/3 of the alliance unlike a Rdm that can Dia III and give all 18 people a +17.6% attack bonus.

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Why wouldn't you take both ? Were are you only getting 6 tic refresh from, highy douht the the whm and rdm would have no refresh gear. Out side of abyssea taking the bare min is not as effective.

Again relic brd are now no longer have a free passs to get everything they want.

I wasn't including refresh gear since most of it is fairly universal now and all 3 of those jobs can more or less equip the same amount of pieces.

and why WOULD you take both. If you ever needed THAT much healing you'd probably just use pets to tank it anyway like what people are doing with Voidwatch NMs.

Not to mention that instead of Whm + Brd + Rdm you could go Whm + Whm +Brd. You lose 3(4) MP/tick, but still keep 12ish minimum, and you lose the T2 enfeebles but still keep the T1 versions (that aren't very far behind anyway unless saboteured). For those minor losses though you get the healing power of another white mage.

Really, people are overplaying Refresh 2 thinking that once we leave abyssea Rdm will be SE's gift to the world.

+3 MP/tick was big when most mages had +0 MP/tick and no natural way to recover MP.

+3 MP/tick isn't anywhere near as impressive with other mages already having at least +6 MP/tick and a full MP bar every 10 mins especially when Brd can give +9.

(Also I'm assuming you are talking about Relic Bards being lol because of Crooner's Cithara. Though just to throw out the lvl 90 version adds +3 to all songs. That would give +13 MP/tick which is a lot. Not necessarily worth a relic weapon though still a lot. I'd think a 90 G horn would beat the pink harp still though I could be wrong.

Or are you talking about Brds being lol because of abyssea and not needing MP regeneration from other jobs and killing speed not being the biggest of issues. )

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Originally Posted by Dallas

#2 is a fix in the sense that SE acknowledged years ago that there needed to be a job that specialized in staff.

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I dunno...to me it just seems like icing on the cake noting ground breaking.

"SE: Oh here you go summoners here is your cake enjoy."

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Originally Posted by Seriha

I'm sorry, but if you think meaningful RDM melee will spell the end of FFXI (It's not all about damage, if you've been paying attention to any ideas floating around), that's your problem. Bad players will be bad players regardless of what happens, but to be so vehemently against adding potentially useful tools for the good players to make them that much better just has me scratching my head as it conflicts with that sense of skill and efficiency you're trying to impose of the caster-only role. We're otherwise conveying added risk should yield added reward, not more party hassles just to get people angry because someone somewhere was doinitrong.

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I dislike all the melee talk specifically because it encourages the Devs to place emphasis on RDM's unquestionably worst aspect instead of augmenting the things that RDM does well and what RDM's are generally expected to do. Melee should be a hobby on the side, not the core aspect of the job. I don't want SE to ignore what actually makes RDM good in favor of melee adjustments that ultimately won't matter because it's insane to give RDM the capacity to DD as well as the specialized DDs.

Melee RDMs often get hassled because they A) pull out their swords at the wrong time, and B) are generally not geared well enough to be effective. Someone on BG make a good point a few weeks ago: if in a pickup group doing something easy (like a +1 seal NM), and a RDM pulled out an Almace and high-end melee gear, would that bother you? I thought about, and yeah, I doubt I'd mind a RDM meleeing in that situation provided the group isn't debuffed to hell and dying. It's gotta be better than a full pink melee-thing, and I appreciate someone who can think and put real effort into their gear, macros, and playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

So, while you might think Cure V a good addition ...

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I never said such a thing. I said:

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Originally Posted by Eeek

I do think Cure5 will happen by 99.

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I said nothing about Cure5 being a "good addition." I merely said that I thought it would happen.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

At current, a 99 RDM/WHM and a 99 SCH/RDM aren't going to be all that different. And in the game's current climate, neither job are particularly a first choice.

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Thankfully, I don't think RDM and SCH will be too similar come 99 (I also think RDM should be /SCH, not /WHM). I think RDM will skew more towards support and enfeebling while SCH will be better at nuking and crowd control (AoE Gravity on a pack of mobs is a thing of beauty, as one example).

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Exit Abyssea and a RDM won't be aggressively healing while throwing out nukes. MP just doesn't support it.

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I've found out, by accident, that RDM's MP supply will still be fine while healing aggressively and nuking. I've done it by accident a few times in Abyssea after infusing Merciless Matriarch instead of Minikin Monstrosity. With a 7MP/tick Refresh2 (applied with Composure, obviously) and an additional 4MP/tick in my idle set, I didn't need to make any adjustments to my playstyle. I did have to use Convert 2 or 3 times over the course of a few hours, but I didn't come remotely close to riding the timer. I honestly thought I'd have more MP issues than I actually did.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

SCH conflicts through Arts use, as well. RDM's simple distinction from SCH should be the frontline aspect ...

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As I previously mentioned, I believe RDM's distinctions should be in the support and enfeebling departments as well as the capacity to cast a wide range of spells without the need, like SCH, to switch arts and use charges (although this does affect RDM/SCH to an extent). SCH's better capacity for crowd control and nuking is what differentiates it from RDM in my opinion. SCH's functional limitations by arts and charges are the limiting factor which pulls it back from 'overpowered' territory. It's not as speedy and flexible as RDM and needs much more forethought.

I've never been fully comfortable using stances in FFXI as I don't like the limitations that usually come with them. This is why I don't want to level SCH, and it's why I'll likely struggle somewhat to adjust to RDM/SCH when I eventually finish leveling that subjob to 49.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

We, the players, unfortunately perverted that intent into brute force healing.

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And I believe players did this because RDM frankly isn't very good at melee but is a very good mage.

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

I dunno...to me it just seems like icing on the cake noting ground breaking.

"SE: Oh here you go summoners here is your cake enjoy."

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I see it is one of those "should have been in the game from the start" parts. Like dual wield for THF. Except seeing how SE went with THF, I guess SMN will get Staff Mastery at 95.

SE just keeps ignoring SMN for what it is.

Avatars should be used primarly. Too bad they have too long recast on Rages, so you have to swap to something else between.
Swapping to spirits doesn't help, because they are too random. Better swap to something else.
Next up is staff, your last resort as a Summoner... and that sucks terribly as well.
Leaving you the backup choice of casting cures from your /WHM sub.

Either they fix staff melee, spirits, or BPs. We can't keep going as the job who has 3 options that all sucks so we turn to our subjob spell selection.

I'd chalk it up more to a shortage of healers and making a last resort more tolerable with it, but the overall lack of interest in people playing support roles isn't a unique thing to FFXI. It is, nonetheless, a route people can come to socially exploit if they find the right suckers, as RDMs didn't really endgame for RDM gear. There was far too little of that to be had from Kings, Sky, or Sea and the continued trend of slow or stagnant growth with the cap increases are a big part of our issue. Regardless, melee and support aren't mutually exclusive terms.

But as I said before on the RDM board, if you're more keen on mage updates, make a thread devoted to that instead of pissing in the cheerios of the melee camp and trying to banish us off into solo land or some niche scenario where you expect melee RDMs, that you frown upon, will magically have an Almace whose sole purpose is for stronger melee. Then again, they'd have be giving up MM/Beyond/Ultimate if you want them being anything of a decent nuker alongside the melee. Being super all at once, which seems to be this nagging fear people have, isn't possible with MP constraints. And if you weren't running out of MP curing and nuking often without MM on, I'll just say you weren't being aggressive enough. It's not hard to run out just spamming Blizzard III and IV when timers are up, as was what I pretty much did when working on my Ice staff in the various Abyssea zones with 16/tic over your 7. Sure, meds can prolong things a bit, but they're never a guarantee. And again, all of this goes out the window once we exit Abyssea.

A WoE sword is arguably less work than a single TotM staff. There is absolutely no excuse not to have Chant du Cygne for anyone who is even half serious about wanting to pursue melee options on RDM. Period.

Thank you for reaffirming my point about mutually antagonistic and mutually appreciative roles, though. Healing/Buffing and DD'ing? Appreciative. Nuking and DD'ing? Antagonistic. A good RDM, whose primary party role is Healing, will likely do more damage by adding Melee/CdC than adding Nukes. Especially if there is a Bard or a Dancer in the party. Haste is a pretty cool guy and doesn't afraid of anything.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

And I believe players did this because RDM frankly isn't very good at melee but is a very good mage.

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Catch 22

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Originally Posted by Eeek

SCH's functional limitations by arts and charges are the limiting factor which pulls it back from 'overpowered' territory. It's not as speedy and flexible as RDM and needs much more forethought.

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What limiting factor? The 2-3 second JA delay from switching to one art to another and possibly popping the addendum?

The recast on Light Arts ad Dark Arts is one minute. If you need to switch from your current Dark Arts, to Light Arts, then back to Dark Arts, then back to Light Arts again in under a minute that's not a problem with the job's flexibility but something else.

Likewise Sch gets a stratagem every 48 seconds and can hold up to 5 at the same time. They have a toolbox of JAs for their spells that they can use more often then a Thf uses Sneak Attack.

Sch should focus on Nuking and Crowd Control...isn't that just Black Mage -1 because I thought that was Black Mages role. You also neglected the fact that Scholars have a White Magic side. Should they just never use that in any situation that matters since they don't have a specialized role for their Light Arts?

You say that Rdm should be an enhancer, but how can you honestly say that is the direction Rdm is heading? If any Sch is heading in that direction. More then HALF of Schs new spells since 75+ have been Enhancing spells (well, same with Rdm but self targeting spells don't do a whole lot of good with as an "enhancer"). That and pretty much anything Rdm gets that is enhancing Whm also gets but is also AoE.

I'm not exactly making a baseless claim that Red Mage really only has 2 directions it can travel as a job without homogenizing it. It can really only travel in an enfeebling route and a melee generalist route. This wouldn't be a problem if SE didn't make a conceptually superior Red Mage with stances minus the melee. You may not like stances, but that's no reason to hold Red Mage back as a Sch -1 for the rest of the game.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

A WoE sword is arguably less work than a single TotM staff. There is absolutely no excuse not to have Chant du Cygne for anyone who is even half serious about wanting to pursue melee options on RDM. Period.

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I disagree by a LONG shot. A TotM staff is stupidly easy to get on Red Mage between partying for staff kills inside of abyssea or just meleeing things down to low HP outside of abyssea then landing a killing shot. The last few trials tend to take a little time, but it's nothing difficult and progress does get made.

WoE is one of the biggest luck crapfests in this game and as it stands atm if you don't have a pet job you likely won't get invited unless you static with a few friends in flux 2 or try and solo for coins in flux 3 which is painfully slow.

There's a reason people joke about how getting an Emp is easier then an WoE (especially for the benefit gained)

Getting an Emp is tons easier than a WoE for someone with a mule, with a high level of game skill, or with friends who are solid at the game and can keep a schedule.

Getting a WoE is possible, over time, for anyone. That's why it is absolutely a reasonable requirement. If a RDM isn't using Chant du Cygne, what the hell are they melee'ing with anyways? Death Blossom (which can arguably take longer to get if you don't have Nyzul complete)? Fast Blade? They're definitely not getting Vorpal Blade with a mage or Nin sub, and Rdm/War is total crap.

Edit: Dare I even suggest Sanguine Blade? =/ I don't even want to think about that.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Catch 22



What limiting factor? The 2-3 second JA delay from switching to one art to another and possibly popping the addendum?

The recast on Light Arts ad Dark Arts is one minute. If you need to switch from your current Dark Arts, to Light Arts, then back to Dark Arts, then back to Light Arts again in under a minute that's not a problem with the job's flexibility but something else.

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The limiting factor involves almost always being in Add: Black/White for the specialized spells.

If you're on SCH, you're likely /RDM which means choosing your role beforehand. If you choose to nuke, you'll be in Add: Black which means you're locked out of status cures and RR. If you choose to heal then obviously you can't access Sleep II or your high tier nukes. Switching repeatedly wastes stratagems.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

A WoE sword is arguably less work than a single TotM staff. There is absolutely no excuse not to have Chant du Cygne for anyone who is even half serious about wanting to pursue melee options on RDM. Period.

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There's no way a WoE is less work than a TOTM staff unless we're talking Fire/Light here. You could finish Wind or Ice in a day given you put in the hours.

WoE unless you have a group clearing chambers comes down to alot of luck or sheer grindage as you solo mobs one by one for coins. Even for the casual player, I think you'd make better headwind doing PUG Briareus/Sobek at this point.

But you are correct, any "serious" RDM melee should have (or be working on) CDC at this point. Death Blossom and Vorpal just don't compare.

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Edit: Dare I even suggest Sanguine Blade? =/ I don't even want to think about that.

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With a proper atma build, consistently breaking 2k on RDM isn't out of the question. Main issue is said build doesn't involve RR and, of course, giving up the DW and survivability perks of /NIN. But for fodder mobs, you wouldn't even need shadows since you can just SB the HP lost back, as I tend to do on BLU with an atma build not built for SB.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Next up is staff, your last resort as a Summoner... and that sucks terribly as well.

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Staff doesn't suck, it's just that SE gave all the "doesn't suck" to WHM and left the jobs that can use it out in the cold. The "fix" will allow SMN to melee in the best melee subjob (/SAM) without giving up the best melee WS (Cataclysm on /WHM).