[dev1289] Job Adjustments

Honestly, neither one would surprise me. A not-insignificant part of the motivation for me making Terpsichore was that there were really no other weapon choices at the time. It was Izhiikoh, Sabebus, Vanir Knife, and Ipetam. And Vanir Knife isn't really that great for DNC, I already had Izhiikoh and Sabebus, and Ipetam, at the time, would have cost about half as much to augment as a Terpsichore cost in Alex.

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Originally Posted by Olor

Yes it did. Cause when you're dead your damage is 0.

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Well, I still stand by this being a healer problem.
Apart from that, what's wrong with moving out of range when stuff really gets hairy? Melee have been doing that for years.
At least the more competent ones...

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Originally Posted by Shirai

Well, I still stand by this being a healer problem.

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Of course it's a healer problem. But knowing this doesn't change anything. The whole range only hype is caused by healer problems, good Whm's are rare. But how to change that? -> Not possible -> Building safe ranged PT's.
Atleast for shout groups.

Front line DDs and Pets need different Buffs and gear to put out damage and survive TP moves / AOE magic attacks and BST requires both now. Which, it can't have.

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Originally Posted by Arthos

Of course it's a healer problem. But knowing this doesn't change anything. The whole range only hype is caused by healer problems, good Whm's are rare. But how to change that? -> Not possible -> Building safe ranged PT's.
Atleast for shout groups.

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And this mentality only adds to the problem.
But I guess it's easier to point fingers at others instead of trying to contribute to the sollution yourself by either educating healers, or becoming one yourself if you think they're all so bad.

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Originally Posted by bazookatooth

Front line DDs and Pets need different Buffs and gear to put out damage and survive TP moves / AOE magic attacks and BST requires both now. Which, it can't have.

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Nah, not really.
If my paperskin summoner and white mage with hardly any -DT gear in its idle sets can take one or two AoE's, so can a Beastmaster.
If you can't, you really need to look at your gearsets because if your idle and melee sets are not at least at iLevel stage you have other problems.

Now I do understand that some situational sets dependent on non-iLevel armor, I really do, but for that there's things like timing your moves.
It might prove a bit dificult in the begining, but practice makes perfect.

I'm sorry but Beastmaster hasn't become unplayable, it just takes a different approach now which most skilled players will eventually figure out if they haven't already.
You've just been put back in the same place as all the other melee jobs you've been leaving behind, you've had your fun and you knew this was coming eventually.
If you want "easy" ways to beat high level content, try thinking and figuring out about their mechanics because the content is not hard.

It's obvious there is a disconnect between the people who presume BST is like any other DD and those who play BST.

Bottom line, presently there isn't a gear set where BST can have their pet doing proper damage and the same for themselves.

Regardless of this update, BST is not a frontline job.

Either our pet wiffs or we do.

BST do not belong anywhere near the frontline. If their pets are expected to be effective the master will be ineffective.

Pick one.

Neither is a Geomancer, but where are they standing 9 out of 10 times?

SMN was one of my first 75s back in the olden days but I won't presume to tell a SMN main how to play their job as it would be presumptuous on my part.

BST on the other hand is my main and this Nerf was ill planned.

I won't presume to understand GEO but their job is not comparable with BST nor does it bear relevance to how we must choose to be effective ourselves or for our pets to be effective.

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Originally Posted by Shirai

Neither is a Geomancer, but where are they standing 9 out of 10 times?

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Geos don't front line everything. Only things with no nasty AOE moves. For everything else, they use entrust and stay away. They also have the ability to use stone skin, blink and heal themselves and native magic defense bonus from subjob. Not only that, but when they idle in DT- gear, it doesn't gimp their spells.

Not even a close comparison. And it ignores the fact that if a BST can survive it, then a melee can survive it too, while putting out better damage.

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Originally Posted by Shirai

And this mentality only adds to the problem.
But I guess it's easier to point fingers at others instead of trying to contribute to the sollution yourself by either educating healers, or becoming one yourself if you think they're all so bad.

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No one points fingers at others, I'm talking about what i see. I have Whm and I know how hard it can be, sometimes I was good at it and sometimes not. And i dont blame them, they have the hardest job in game. But doesnt change the facts, good and fast Whm's are rare.

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Originally Posted by Shirai

Nah, not really.
If my paperskin summoner and white mage with hardly any -DT gear in its idle sets can take one or two AoE's, so can a Beastmaster.
If you can't, you really need to look at your gearsets because if your idle and melee sets are not at least at iLevel stage you have other problems.

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I suggest you to have a look at your gearsets, and maybe u find the difference between heavy and light armor. Compare magic defense bonus and magic evasion of both types. You may be surprised.
Also have a look at job traits of your white mage. And now take into count that most AoE's are magic and u know why u dont need DT gear to survive that. And why Bst may need it.

And the roughly 1k+ HP you have more than mages means nothing? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not sure what the problem is here exactly, because unlike what Olor wants to try to make me believe Beastmaster did not get a damage cut.
They're still able to do the same, but at the same time they have to take the same risk as any other melee DD out there.
In the end, Beastmaster needs to learn to rely on other jobs to help them. Which is, I do admit, quite revolutionary.

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Originally Posted by Shirai

And the roughly 1k+ HP you have more than mages means nothing? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not sure what the problem is here exactly, because unlike what Olor wants to try to make me believe Beastmaster did not get a damage cut.
They're still able to do the same, but at the same time they have to take the same risk as any other melee DD out there.
In the end, Beastmaster needs to learn to rely on other jobs to help them. Which is, I do admit, quite revolutionary.

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My GEO has about 125 less HP in idle gear than my BST. Where are you getting the other 850 from? Some game shark hack? And you are correct. As was previously stated numerous times, Beast pets still put out less damage than traditional Melee jobs, just like they always have.

EDIT: ACtually, I was missing my idle head piece when I did that comparison. My GEO has 49 less HP than my BST in idle set so...

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Originally Posted by Jile

BST have to choose. Def or atk or acc on either pet or themselves, and only one really of those six variables up at a time. This update proves only that whomever is doing this update does not play BST. Neither BST nor SMN belong on the frontline for relevant content, period.

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For relevant content either the pet or the master will be hitting and doing decent damage. Both will not occur at the same time.

SE designed our gear to intentionally force us to choose, to limit our dmg output.

This Nerf changes everything. SE needs to completely revisit BST gear to redesign it around these changes.

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Originally Posted by bazookatooth

Geos don't front line everything. Only things with no nasty AOE moves. For everything else, they use entrust and stay away. They also have the ability to use stone skin, blink and heal themselves and native magic defense bonus from subjob. Not only that, but when they idle in DT- gear, it doesn't gimp their spells.

Not even a close comparison. And it ignores the fact that if a BST can survive it, then a melee can survive it too, while putting out better damage.

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Also ignores the fact that loupons have built in innate dt... and recasting them isn't based on a ja timer. And only need potency on cast instead of several seconds every 10 so can stay in full defense the vast majority of the time while stilling keeping even higher DTs on their sort of pet than bst can even achieve.

Please adjust BST ability ranges.

I have no problem being close to the mob or engaging although it is pointless since my gear is not helping me at all in doing damage. Most BST gear is for pet stats not BST stats and does little for me. But the really big problem is the range limitation.

Has any of you at SE tried to hit any end game mob as BST engaged in melee with the available BST gear? If you can hit ANY of these evasive mobs in BST gear i will personally pay for pizza for all developers.

The biggest problem is that I can't even stand behind the mob any more. I just did Salvage II and Einherjar and it was a nightmare because even when engaged i have to be right next to my pet. I can't stand to the side or behind the boss mobs at all. I have to be right in the face of the mob. What are we now? TANKS?

Any bigger mob you will not be able to issue commands at all even when ENGAGED. On big Boss mobs, forget it completely. You can melee but you wont be able to issue commands unless you stand right next to your pet. Get knocked back or pet/boss adjusts which they do a lot then you need to keep adjusting too, finding the "Sweet spot". It has become a game of trial and error.

This is annoying and needs to be changed.

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While we are on the subject. You not only increase SMN range to an absurd number, you also give SMN it's OWN abjuration set, just for them. How about you now introduce a BST set that will actually work with these changes so we can do melee instead of giving us half arsed WAR pieces that do #$@ all.

Come on, can the bst haters even just admit the current ranges are ridiculous? Please?

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Originally Posted by Olor

Come on, can the bst haters even just admit the current ranges are ridiculous? Please?

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No, they're too busy trying to sweep the stupidly OP job that is BLU under the rug.

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Originally Posted by machini

No, they're too busy trying to sweep the stupidly OP job that is BLU under the rug.

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Difference is you cant play BLU and be terrible at it in any real content other than silt farming. You can be a mid level BST and affect hard content with 0 risk. Or you used to be :p Those that dont know how to play it very well die all the time. They can still cleave silt just as fast as Scissorleg Xerin spam can or SMN ramuh or BLMs or SCH.. Honestly adapt. Think of new strategies.

No one was doing hard content on BST without at minimum tens of millions in augmented gear. Please stop lying about BST. No one was beating hard content with poorly geared BST.

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Originally Posted by Keido

You can be a mid level BST and affect hard content with 0 risk.

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Cool story. Too bad it's not true.

Seriously. Been playing BST for years and I didn't even get to go out on harder content because I am a casual player and I didn't feel geared enough. I was super excited that I might have a chance to play endgame on my favourite job before the end of the game. That hope was shattered by this update.

And yeah, before people come along to slag me, sure I am not the greatest player out there, maybe some superhero with perfect augments and every bit of BST gear out there can still do some endgame now, but for regular BST there will be no slots once again.

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Originally Posted by Keido

Think of new strategies.

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Honestly, this Nerf is so powerful and so very broken right now, BST isn't playable. No strategies work when your core functions are broken beyond usability.

The Nerf will be removed or BST will no longer be played by anyone for any serious purpose.

SE messed up bad.

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Originally Posted by Olor

Seriously. Been playing BST for years and I didn't even get to go out on harder content because I am a casual player and I didn't feel geared enough. I was super excited that I might have a chance to play endgame on my favourite job before the end of the game. That hope was shattered by this update.

And yeah, before people come along to slag me, sure I am not the greatest player out there, maybe some superhero with perfect augments and every bit of BST gear out there can still do some endgame now, but for regular BST there will be no slots once again.

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I agree to this. I'm no BST myself but I hate to see BSTs trying to get their pet moves in real close and then die from dangerous mob moves because of the nerfs then waiting for Recast to call another pet.

I'm no BST but all the feedback I see makes this seem like a terrible solution to a niche-y problem....

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Originally Posted by Jile

Honestly, this Nerf is so powerful and so very broken right now, BST isn't playable. No strategies work when your core functions are broken beyond usability.

The Nerf will be removed or BST will no longer be played by anyone for any serious purpose.

SE messed up bad.

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No, it is playable. Just not in the way YOU want it to be.

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Originally Posted by Singforu

No, it is playable. Just not in the way YOU want it to be.

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It's playable, but it's BAD and It's not the way ANYONE wants to play it.

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Originally Posted by Singforu

No, it is playable. Just not in the way YOU want it to be.

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It doesn't really sound like the way anyone wants it to be, not just him.

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Originally Posted by Singforu

No, it is playable. Just not in the way YOU want it to be.

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Can I draw out a weapon, yes.

Can I send a pet to attack, yes.

Can I use pet ready moves, occasionally when the positioning is right, yep.

If that is the extent of your definition then yes BST can 'play'.

Now, if you mean does the job work effectively - For the love of all things, no, not even remotely.

If BRD had a 2 yalm radius for songs, they could still play. Would they be effective, heck no.

Lets stop cutting hairs here. BST is severely, critically, undeniably broken with this nerf. It needs undone.

No it's not. You people want to just stand on the sidelines with your pet doing all the work. Wake up, SE doesn't want you to play that way. SE wants you to stand right next to your pet and fight along side it. You only consider it broken because you don't want to play it the way SE intends for you to play it. Get over it.

A BLM could not play the job the way SE intends for it to be played and melee without casting a single nuke. Is his DPS going to take a hit... you betcha. Play BST the way SE intends for you to play it and stop whining.

Bst simply got eliminated of high lv content. There's no new playstyle. When you want to go with a melee pt, there are better options, faster and safer then bst. It still can be good on low level content, but it's more a hobby now than an endgame job.
For now it has the advantage that many players have good equip and jp on bst, so that it still may be an option to go with a bst group. But this will fade out with the time and you will see pure melee pt, but more often other ranged setups. Bst cannot join any of them, because even if they add gear for bst melee, you would still need different buffs for master and pet.

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No it's not. You people want to just stand on the sidelines with your pet doing all the work. Wake up, SE doesn't want you to play that way. SE wants you to stand right next to your pet and fight along side it.

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And even when they do that, sometimes their commands still don't go through because the range is STILL too short.

However SE "wants" us to be playing it doesn't really matter, because right now it's just plain broken.

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Originally Posted by Singforu

No it's not. You people want to just stand on the sidelines with your pet doing all the work. Wake up, SE doesn't want you to play that way. SE wants you to stand right next to your pet and fight along side it. You only consider it broken because you don't want to play it the way SE intends for you to play it. Get over it.

A BLM could not play the job the way SE intends for it to be played and melee without casting a single nuke. Is his DPS going to take a hit... you betcha. Play BST the way SE intends for you to play it and stop whining.

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While I do tend to fight next to my pet, I recently went into Dynamis and almost died, because my pet went wondering off to hit some Range fighter and moved way outside of 'Ready's range. Mind you my internet connection right now isn't all that great, but there is most definitely a problem.

As many have said, they need to adjust the gear for BST to help both player and pet, and the range for the abilities needs to be adjusted. It's really bad when I'm in close proximity and I still can't issue a command.

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Originally Posted by Singforu

No it's not. You people want to just stand on the sidelines with your pet doing all the work. Wake up, SE doesn't want you to play that way. SE wants you to stand right next to your pet and fight along side it. You only consider it broken because you don't want to play it the way SE intends for you to play it. Get over it.

A BLM could not play the job the way SE intends for it to be played and melee without casting a single nuke. Is his DPS going to take a hit... you betcha. Play BST the way SE intends for you to play it and stop whining.

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Imagine how blms would feel if that were to suddenly happen. I think BLMs would be rather pissed if SE suddenly decided that magic bursts have gotten too powerful, so they are now required to stand up on the frontline and fight in order to cast spells. And rightfully so. Just because SE says it is their new intention, doesn't mean it isn't dumb and it doesn't mean we shouldn't tell them. We've never had to play bst that way before and we don't like it. Luckily there's a forum where we can express this discontent to the developer so that they can take a more appropriate course of action. If you don't like it, you are free to go read something else. This obviously doesn't pertain to you. But I for one will not "Stop Whining". I don't bow down to trolls.

It's ridiculous for them to force their "original vision" for a job that's been around since launch, right in the penultimate content update.

On the other hand, these "how would you like it if WHM/BLM/RDM/BRD/SMN/SCH/GEO was forced to melee" arguments are pretty flawed. None of those jobs have a combat skill higher than B+ (if that), and with the exception of RDM/BRD, their melee gear is pretty much limited to All Jobs accessories.

The only job it should be compared to is PUP, since that's basically the reverse situation: job that was intended to be played like SMN, yet was interpreted by the players to be more like DRG. Now it has the option to do both, and I think BST should, too. Just add some sort of penalty to back line BST (nothing too severe) and incentive to play melee BST.

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Originally Posted by Jopa-Sopa

On the other hand, these "how would you like it if WHM/BLM/RDM/BRD/SMN/SCH/GEO was forced to melee" arguments are pretty flawed. None of those jobs have a combat skill higher than B+ (if that), and with the exception of RDM/BRD, their melee gear is pretty much limited to All Jobs accessories.

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This argument comes up so much, because it's true. No melee abilities, job traits and gearing is more complex than a standard melee, because you need stats for master and for pet, which is limited.
Bst is not a melee and to be honest, i dont think this game needs another melee. There are excellent frontline jobs already who hardly ever see the sun of Vana'diel.

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Originally Posted by Jopa-Sopa

It's ridiculous for them to force their "original vision" for a job that's been around since launch, right in the penultimate content update.

On the other hand, these "how would you like it if WHM/BLM/RDM/BRD/SMN/SCH/GEO was forced to melee" arguments are pretty flawed. None of those jobs have a combat skill higher than B+ (if that), and with the exception of RDM/BRD, their melee gear is pretty much limited to All Jobs accessories.

The only job it should be compared to is PUP, since that's basically the reverse situation: job that was intended to be played like SMN, yet was interpreted by the players to be more like DRG. Now it has the option to do both, and I think BST should, too. Just add some sort of penalty to back line BST (nothing too severe) and incentive to play melee BST.

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That's missing the point. Even if they all had A+ skill, It doesn't change the fact that that's not how the jobs were played throughout the history of the game and there's no good reason to change them now.

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Originally Posted by bazookatooth

Imagine how blms would feel if that were to suddenly happen..

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That would be quite silly for it to happen to a job that is 99.9% of the time as far away from the monster as possible.

Imagine if it were to happen to WHM! May as well throw another unrealistic situation.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

That would be quite silly for it to happen to a job that is 99.9% of the time as far away from the monster as possible.

Imagine if it were to happen to WHM! May as well throw another unrealistic situation.

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Ermm... now you're getting it. They took a job that always played from a distance and made it fight on the front line. I'm glad that you can see how ridiculous it is.

My biggest problem with using the terminology "front-line job" and calling BST a "front-line job" is that ....other "front-line jobs" won't be happy to receive the same buffs as Beastmasters.

We need Beastmaster Roll / Drachen Roll / Pup Roll ...I don't think other front-line DD like WAR/SAM/DRK/etc. would be comfortable giving their buffs up so that my pet can be buffed. Let's also not forget that the WHM we're expected to bring can't heal our pets.

The whole thing just doesn't make any sense and it's very clear that the folks who opted for this fix haven't played Beastmaster from 1-75, solo or in high-level content.

Beastmaster should either be given the full benefits of a front-line job (and then some, like an Ochain-like shield with sic/ready-10) ...or reverted to what it was a month ago.

The situation is just so incredibly disappointing and it is making it very hard for me to login. :(

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That would be quite silly for it to happen to a job that is 99.9% of the time as far away from the monster as possible.

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I see you're not very good at catching on to what's been happening already right in front of us