Please don't nerf beastmaster

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

Not true.

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Maybe your blu isn't as good as you think it is :p

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Originally Posted by scaevola

dasva, I like you but this is nutty. "Wrong" augment? What? Does the system magically know what augment you want out of the pool and weight that augment for you?

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Um no it isn't. Read up a little or do it a bit more because you are clearly a little low on what is what in the system. Wrong augments refer to getting ones not associated with those stones. For example getting a pet augment with a tip stone. It's fairly common with nq stones and I've yet to see it with a +2.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Tell you what; you buy one duskorb +2 for 400k and I'll buy 40 NQs at 10k each, and we'll see who has the more desirable augment at the end.

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I've done both for multiple jobs for multiple augments. So I know multiple times so I'll go with my +2 or maybe +1. Also in the time you actually spend trading all those extra stones could've farmed a few more...

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Just messing around in chump E AAs for testing (obviously I got trashed), patrick's hitting Tail Blow for about 3k with no melee pet stat gear on except Kerecahtl.

My SAM fudos in full 119 with Tsurumaru and what was maybe 10 or 12 STR away from the best WS set at the time I stopped playing it (though I shelved him before alluvion armor came out) for about 4k on such targets without attack buffs.

But I guess that's okay because Patrick has to wait 10 seconds to WS, whereas my SAM, with luck, only has to wait 7 or 8.

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Sure on trash content and/or completely unbuffed bst will win. I mean until recently jugs were basically about as strong as a completely unbuffed DD and clearly needed something. Most people kind of wanted to just allow pets to be buffed as that will be somewhat easier to balance. SE decided to just buff pets and give more equipment with pet stats. Not perfect as that means pets are decently stronger in no buff about the same in low buff and then still fairly lacking in high buff situations. All that -ready is basically our full haste buff/set

Oh no 42-60k dmg in just a minute and vagary!!! How could any DD hope to ever deal that incredible amount dmg... oh wait.

http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...589a341dcc.jpg

Seriously if you think 1k dps is huge in this day and age I don't know what to tell you other than git gud and stop trying to solo with trusts

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Um no it isn't. Read up a little or do it a bit more because you are clearly a little low on what is what in the system. Wrong augments refer to getting ones not associated with those stones. For example getting a pet augment with a tip stone. It's fairly common with nq stones and I've yet to see it with a +2.

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Oh, that's what you meant. I haven't really experienced that augmenting sets for jobs I don't care about with NQs, but anecdotez.

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Oh no 42-60k dmg in just a minute and vagary!!! How could any DD hope to ever deal that incredible amount dmg... oh wait.

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I mean, yeah, I definitely think magic bursts are way more broken than BST right now* but that seems to be what The People want and we've all sort of abandoned the lie that we ever wanted this game to be challenging, so if giving me 800k for a snowdim +2 is making people feel skilled, whatever.






*I don't even care if BST gets nerfed or not, really; I'm just debating this delusion that a BST needs to spend anywhere close to 100 million gil to get to the point that people are complaining about, like an extra 5 attack per augment slot is making the heavens open wide

That pic just loaded for me, we're talking about melee DD here. BST can do better than other melee DD options and doesn't need the support that those melee would. Saevel put it best in this thread earlier on and you can re-read his post on it. Why take a WAR or a DRK that requires a BRD or additional GEO buffs (indi-haste/etc) in addition to a WHM/healer when you can just bring a BST. I don't see how you would think they would nerf THF and leave BST as it is atm.

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

Dude, just stop you are trying way too hard atm. Escha and Vagary aren't trash content and you can see the most vocal BST's doing that with ease and spamming 7~10k+ ws every 10 seconds. Anyone with a brain can see that no other DD job is going to keep up with that, especially under a situation where the NM tosses out debuffs (which is quite often.)

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I can spam 7 to 10k WSes often enough to consistently self chain. I do more damage than a BST, especially when I'm as buffed as they are for the content they do. The fact of the matter is that you are an ignorant, rude person who takes delight in other people's fun being ruined for no reason other than you don't like that their big numbers are bigger than your big numbers, or that a job excelling at what it was designed to excel at.

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

First, lol at you telling me to "git gud". Second, SE already knows whats up. I'm gonna pass along here, the work is done. BST already getting a nerf, and more to come.

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Was it as funny as I found 700-1k dps being something no other DD can obtain? Because I'm still laughing my about that one and I'm sure anyone who takes DDing seriously is as well. And that nerf is really just fixing something they didn't intend. They wanted jugs to skillchain with players or other pets easily do with themselves over and over again. But keep telling yourself that bst is so OP and SE recognizes this despite saying they just want to deal with the skillchain/MB option

Children! Your mom has a headache. Stop fighting.

And I thought you weren't going to comment anymore, Dray? lol

Dasva, stop raising his dander. lol

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

That pic just loaded for me, we're talking about melee DD here. BST can do better than other melee DD options and doesn't need the support that those melee would. Saevel put it best in this thread earlier on and you can re-read his post on it. Why take a WAR or a DRK that requires a BRD or additional GEO buffs (indi-haste/etc) in addition to a WHM/healer when you can just bring a BST. I don't see how you would think they would nerf THF and leave BST as it is atm.

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NO, Saevel's been talking about how easy it is to build a MAB set for BST and steam roll every other DD. And we've been trying repeatedly to tell him how wrong he is both about how easy it is to build and how unimportant it is even if you have it. It makes perfect sense to post screens of other magic jobs doing 10X the damage he's so upset about. BSTs require buffs to do the damage you guys are so butt hurt about too. Read the thread before you post. They need GEO and COR buffs just like melee do. Just different buffs.

You guys are really just outing yourselves as knowing nothing about how this game works.

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

It's not as funny as your desperation in attacking anyone who thinks BST should be nerfed. Have you ever had a discussion before without resorting to attacking and name calling? You also conveniently skip over the facts that were brought up multiple times.

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still not as funny as how you say anyone disagreeing with you is attacking you but you telling people they are trying to hard and lying or that they don't have half a brain with others is apparently showing everyone the "facts". Also didn't you say you were done here last page? Also git gud isn't name calling it's telling you to get better

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Originally Posted by bazookatooth

NO, Saevel's been talking about how easy it is to build a MAB set for BST and steam roll every other DD. And we've been trying repeatedly to tell him how wrong he is both about how easy it is to build and how unimportant it is even if you have it. It makes perfect sense to post screens of other magic jobs doing 10X the damage he's so upset about. BSTs require buffs to do the damage you guys are so butt hurt about too. Read the thread before you post. They need GEO and COR buffs just like melee do. Just different buffs.

You guys are really just outing yourselves as knowing nothing about how this game works.

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Yeah plus if pet mab sets on taeon are so easy you could instead just put regular mab augments on it and do this....
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...2c9ad04cb3.png


on a job I haven't actually brought to an event since soa came out btw and minimal support. Also technically rng isn't a melee but same difference bst or war can do just as good with cloudsplitter. Cor with leaden. Sam can spam ws much faster than anything. smn can do 99999 flaming crushes a couple of times a minute. Thf can still hit a good 50-60k on dmg neutral mobs if pimped enough. Nin can ws almost as fast as a sam. drk probably in a bad spot though

I was there. He's lucky I was tanking. lol

RNG and COR aren't soloing or in most cases duoing things like BST is, so I don't see the comparison. SAM spamming ws doesn't mean anything especially considering we already discussed the required jobs it needs for support (yeah BST uses support but much less than a melee DD.) SMN is locked on a 35s timer, THF is locked behind a timer and requires additional support and NIN.. are you serious? BST has too many benefits behind it and that is what makes it unfair. All that DMG without the need for additional support and can laugh at a large majority of debuffs. The ready timer needs to be nerfed imo, that would go a long way to even things out.

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Originally Posted by bazookatooth

NO, Saevel's been talking about how easy it is to build a MAB set for BST and steam roll every other DD. And we've been trying repeatedly to tell him how wrong he is both about how easy it is to build and how unimportant it is even if you have it. It makes perfect sense to post screens of other magic jobs doing 10X the damage he's so upset about. BSTs require buffs to do the damage you guys are so butt hurt about too. Read the thread before you post. They need GEO and COR buffs just like melee do. Just different buffs.

You guys are really just outing yourselves as knowing nothing about how this game works.

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Says the lvl1 THF, not gonna argue with someone behind a mule account. Last I checked melee need a healer, haste, and the GEO can't do haste and torpor/frailty or whatever the melee would need to compete with a BST in addition to those simple buffs. Debuffs also skew the favor towards BST all the while they will be outparsed anyways.

I think they should nerf it :o

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

RNG and COR aren't soloing or in most cases duoing things like BST is, so I don't see the comparison. SAM spamming ws doesn't mean anything especially considering we already discussed the required jobs it needs for support (yeah BST uses support but much less than a melee DD.) SMN is locked on a 35s timer, THF is locked behind a timer and requires additional support and NIN.. are you serious? BST has too many benefits behind it and that is what makes it unfair. All that DMG without the need for additional support and can laugh at a large majority of debuffs. The ready timer needs to be nerfed imo, that would go a long way to even things out.

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So who cares about soloing? So you admit sam is a better DD but are mad they need to take a whm? Well guess what that's the trade off of more dmg just like the trade off of not needing a healer is less dmg. yeah smn takes 3 times the recast but can do 9 times the dmg.... great argument there. Please players laugh at as many debuffs as pets do they are just different debuffs

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

Yeah a whole BST ls coming to support their favoritest job in the world. Gimmie a break, anyone can see how OP BST is atm, I'm so done with this thread!

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Please in that same set of fights tonight our nin tanks were doing 10k+ ws faster than every 10 seconds. Which incidentally was about the same dmg as the tiger pet's moves we had with us. And that was without frailty or player att buffs though the bst did have beastmasters roll. Of course once one of the nms petrified it was all over for the bst. He was out for basically the rest of the fight... meanwhile ninja kept going. Done again already? Why it's only been 2 pages since you last said you were done

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

Says the lvl1 THF, not gonna argue with someone behind a mule account. Last I checked melee need a healer, haste, and the GEO can't do haste and torpor/frailty or whatever the melee would need to compete with a BST in addition to those simple buffs. Debuffs also skew the favor towards BST all the while they will be outparsed anyways.

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Maybe they should nerf me too. Doesn't seem fair that I'm this much better than you on a lvl 1 account. It's already been demonstrated with screenshots in this thread that plenty of jobs can out parse a BST.

Don't point the finger elsewhere, we are talking about BST for now.

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Originally Posted by machini

The "pointing the finger elsewhere" is how you like to call "people refuting my central point"?

You've lost this argument. You lost it long ago. You have demonstrated time and again your ignorance, your aggressive rudeness, and your complete and total lack of emotional detachment. I don't know what BST molested you as a child, but you need to let it go.

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Here we go...

I don't know what DDs are outparsing a BST right now but it will be under a well-buffed situation, if you put a DD under the same constrictions as solo BST, the have no haste, no att/acc buffs and no heals so they're dead in a minute at the most. If you ignore the whole dying aspect, an unbuffed DD doesn't hold a candle to BST right now, who, when geared correctly solo Difficult fights that otherwise generally require a party to defeat.

How is that not broken? There would be no problem with BST becoming strong enough that they warrant a DD spot in a party, or hell even a tanking one but to be able to solo fights that should require a party is OP.

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Originally Posted by Tidis

I don't know what DDs are outparsing a BST right now but it will be under a well-buffed situation, if you put a DD under the same constrictions as solo BST, the have no haste, no att/acc buffs and no heals so they're dead in a minute at the most. If you ignore the whole dying aspect, an unbuffed DD doesn't hold a candle to BST right now, who, when geared correctly solo Difficult fights that otherwise generally require a party to defeat.

How is that not broken? There would be no problem with BST becoming strong enough that they warrant a DD spot in a party, or hell even a tanking one but to be able to solo fights that should require a party is OP.

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It gets worse when you put them together with a COR and GEO. Beast roll, Companion Roll with Fraility and / or Torpor (depending on fight and how good the GEO's -DT set is), those pets are suddenly doing monstrous damage non stop. They are completely replaceable and three to four BST's can crush anything in the game doing that. Some of those pets have insane defensive stats, and because they aren't players they can actually evade and take hits from high level targets.

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Originally Posted by Tidis

I don't know what DDs are outparsing a BST right now but it will be under a well-buffed situation, if you put a DD under the same constrictions as solo BST, the have no haste, no att/acc buffs and no heals so they're dead in a minute at the most. If you ignore the whole dying aspect, an unbuffed DD doesn't hold a candle to BST right now, who, when geared correctly solo Difficult fights that otherwise generally require a party to defeat.

How is that not broken? There would be no problem with BST becoming strong enough that they warrant a DD spot in a party, or hell even a tanking one but to be able to solo fights that should require a party is OP.

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So basically you're upset because a job that was designed to solo and has always been good at solo is better than other jobs at solo? makes sense...

Out of curiosity, what content are these beasts doing solo that other jobs can't? And do I mean solo. Because BST can't get any meaningful buffs from trusts and is certainly not out damaging another DD who has trust bard / cor / haste II. You can't solo escha. Requires 3 people just to pop. Can't solo delve. Can't solo vagary. So What's left that they can they do solo? One tier higher difficulty on a couple of the more gimicky AAs and Avatars that almost no one does any more anyways? Because if you use your google power, you'll find that other jobs can solo those too. Is that really what you call over powered?

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Originally Posted by saevel

It gets worse when you put them together with a COR and GEO. Beast roll, Companion Roll with Fraility and / or Torpor (depending on fight and how good the GEO's -DT set is), those pets are suddenly doing monstrous damage non stop. They are completely replaceable and three to four BST's can crush anything in the game doing that. Some of those pets have insane defensive stats, and because they aren't players they can actually evade and take hits from high level targets.

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You give them cor and geo buffs and 3-4 <Any DD> can beat almost anything in the game. It's been that way for most content since like oh... 2009?..

BST wasn't designed to be a solo job but keep telling yourself that, it became a solo job due to the old 30% exp penalty when using a pet, that no longer happens. Also thinking that BST is OP does not mean I or anyone, disagreeing with you is upset, it's just your way of deflecting the argument.

No job should be soloing content like Difficult merit fights except for very extreme circumstances, I'm sure many of you have seen the videos of the SCH who solos difficult/very difficult fights, that would be an extreme circumstance as he is very well geared and skilled enough to handle the various situations of the fight.

Whereas with BST you just need some decent gearsets, some job points and you're set.

It's not about only beating almost anything and you also conveniently skip over the fact they don't have to be in range of debuffs or require a specific healer or TANK because they can do both. They can also do AOE stuff down for massive damage (which only BLU can really do.) Why take 3-4 DD + Buffs + HEALER + TANK(can drop this if DD can tank) when you can take 2 BST + Buffs? See the difference ? Too many bonuses and not enough negatives. Also no, you pretty much can't take a DD like a DRK and put them in a VD fight with trusts and have them solo better than a BST or really anything as they will get creamed. BST does get meaningful buffs from trusts as well, distract, dia3, they can also melee too.

Ah look he just can't leave this thread.... despite saying he would twice.

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Originally Posted by Tidis

BST wasn't designed to be a solo job but keep telling yourself that, it became a solo job due to the old 30% exp penalty when using a pet, that no longer happens. Also thinking that BST is OP does not mean I or anyone, disagreeing with you is upset, it's just your way of deflecting the argument.

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And arguing over the terminology used to describe how you feel is your way of deflecting the argument. If it didn't bother you, you wouldn't be complaining about it on a message board. You probably wouldn't have even bothered to read it. You'd be going on with your life. But you're here.

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Originally Posted by Tidis

No job should be soloing content like Difficult merit fights except for very extreme circumstances, I'm sure many of you have seen the videos of the SCH who solos difficult/very difficult fights, that would be an extreme circumstance as he is very well geared and skilled enough to handle the various situations of the fight.

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So the implication here is that there is no way for a BST to be well geared and skilled? Go try those fights on D without spending millions in gear and R/E items and then get back to me. Hell, even the jugs they use for those solos cost hundreds of thousands on your server. Let me know next time you see a SAM saying he spend a few hundred k on food for 1 fight.

Here's an idea. If it's so easy to beat those fights on D, why don't you post a video? I mean the gear practically falls from the sky and you can get all the augments you need for a couple hundred K according to thins thread. By now, someone should have shown us all how easy it is to do just out of sheer boredom.

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Originally Posted by Tidis

Whereas with BST you just need some decent gearsets, some job points and you're set.

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I like to know what your idea of pretty decent is. Please show us what you think you can beat a D fight in so we can all have a good chuckle.

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

It's not about only beating almost anything and you also conveniently skip over the fact they don't have to be in range of debuffs or require a specific healer or TANK because they can do both. They can also do AOE shit down for massive damage (which only BLU can really do.) Why take 3-4 DD + Buffs + HEALER + TANK(can drop this if DD can tank) when you can take 2 BST + Buffs? See the difference ? Too many bonuses and not enough negatives. Also no, you pretty much can't take a DD like a DRK and put them in a VD fight with trusts and have them solo better than a BST or really anything as they will get creamed. BST does get meaningful buffs from trusts as well, distract, dia3, they can also melee too.

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And you're conveniently skipping over the part where they can't remove a large portion of those debuffs from the pet, (did you get hit with break? enjoy being useless for 5 minutes) Can only heal it about once every minute, have to use pets that are generally bad at doing damage in order to tank but they get DIstract and DIA... meanwhile DD get Haste II, Double attack and attack rolls, Marches, Mins, Mads. etc. etc. and continuous healing and buff removal on demand.

And yes, I do see the differences in that set up. One party had too many people to begin with.

Plenty of mobs petrify. If amnesia doesn't last long then neither do any debuffs that effect players since status cures exist. Doom completely stops any bst strategy. Curse is pretty backbreaking as well. As is any heavy dots. Seriously your debuff argument makes no sense at all. If anything it overall effects jugs more unless you run around without support...

Also who the heck is devastated? I'm guessing you since you mad a bst ever beat your blu dding. Me? I'm laughing my ass off that anyone thinks the little bit of dmg bst can do now is all that much. My pet ls frequently doesn't use pets because they aren't all that for dmg unless you doing AoE stuff that is too dangerous for mages. They are just the lazy/easy option. Half the time we use pets is mostly because nobody here likes playing whm not because it's better. But that doesn't stop our best geared bst from trying to come nin all the time and yep doing more dmg. Which is also nice because without tanks things get pretty hairy

Name all the mobs post Delve that constantly petrify. Status cures take time to cast, especially if you don't have a Yagrush present. Slow, plague, paralyze etc will all have worse effects on player than a pet. My debuff argument makes plenty sense, have you never gotten debuffed before in content? At this point we are going in circles, people who are all BST 4 eva vs people who feel its OP atm. At this point we need parses or proof of your NIN beating a well geared BST with all buffs equal, because I am not buying that. I wanna see gear and parse, on paper they should not be losing to a NIN at all (FYI I have access to multiple BSTs account well geared.) Final point is, 10s ready time is the issue and needs to be remedied.

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

10s ready time is the issue and needs to be remedied.

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Sorry what DDs are so bad that they have to consistently wait more than 10 seconds between weaponskills these days? And you do realize the 1 charge weaponskills don't have any decent attributes right? It's not like pets are doing double darkness skillchains.

And in order to get that 10 second ready time, the BST has to CHANGE WEAPONS. To a non-ilevel axe even! Meaning master is completely useless. Nevermind JA lock, so the ONLY damage a bst is doing in that situation is with their pet, and PETS ARE NOT BETTER THAN PLAYERS UNLESS THE PLAYERS SUCK.

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

(FYI I have access to multiple BSTs account well geared.)

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Bring it! My nin will whoop yo bst! lol

In tanking mode with just haste for shadow recast I keep up with the bsts. It's the smn's who're overpowered... x.x

Oh no... Did I just start another argument?

lol you aren't on BST!?

Nah, it doesn't do enough damage. lol

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

Name all the mobs post Delve that constantly petrify. Status cures take time to cast, especially if you don't have a Yagrush present. Slow, plague, paralyze etc will all have worse effects on player than a pet. My debuff argument makes plenty sense, have you never gotten debuffed before in content? At this point we are going in circles, people who are all BST 4 eva vs people who feel its OP atm. At this point we need parses or proof of your NIN beating a well geared BST with all buffs equal, because I am not buying that. I wanna see gear and parse, on paper they should not be losing to a NIN at all (FYI I have access to multiple BSTs account well geared.) Final point is, 10s ready time is the issue and needs to be remedied.

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Yeah no not going to look up every mob that has debuffs that wreck jugs. Unless you want list for me all the debuffs that somewhat hurt players but don't do much to jugs. No your debuff argument makes no sense because both pets and players can be effected more by certain debuffs it's just different debuffs. In some situations it's worse for players some it's worst for pets. Deal with it it can't always be better worse for pets

Sorry I can't here you over me dealing as much dmg with a single ws as our bst did in a whole minute while completely staying out of range of any moves... ironically also interrupting the skillchain I tried to do with our smn. On paper a friggin rdm should be able to do 1k dps with proper buffs. How about you provide parses and proof hmmm?

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Originally Posted by saevel

It gets worse when you put them together with a COR and GEO. Beast roll, Companion Roll with Fraility and / or Torpor (depending on fight and how good the GEO's -DT set is), those pets are suddenly doing monstrous damage non stop. They are completely replaceable and three to four BST's can crush anything in the game doing that. Some of those pets have insane defensive stats, and because they aren't players they can actually evade and take hits from high level targets.

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And any other DD when buffed with Chaos Roll, and a GEO doing Fury/Frailty also tears up. Your point being?

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Originally Posted by machini

And any other DD when buffed with Chaos Roll, and a GEO doing Fury/Frailty also tears up. Your point being?

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The difference is when the pet dies, the master just jugs another one to keep fighting. Non-pet jobs can't really do that, ya know.

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Originally Posted by Rpro

The difference is when the pet dies, the master just jugs another one to keep fighting. Non-pet jobs can't really do that, ya know.

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Magic and ranged dmg jobs can unless double weak though if magic and ranged jobs are dying that often you probably have other issues as well.

And that only works if call beast is up... which is the interestingly the same recast as normal weakness duration (done on purpose?) though arise is lower for the whms that have that. Just you can "precharge" the time with call beast. Though really drgs have it the worst... 20 min call wyvern recast on a job that stays in melee range is painful

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Originally Posted by Rpro

The difference is when the pet dies, the master just jugs another one to keep fighting. Non-pet jobs can't really do that, ya know.

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And when the NIN dies, he just Mijin Gakures himself back to full power. I'd start a thread about how unfair it is that Ninja gets all those shadows and a weakness free death every hour, but I'm actually fond of my ninja and I don't mind other people having nice things.

BST too strong. Nerf please.

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Originally Posted by dasva

Magic and ranged dmg jobs can unless double weak though if magic and ranged jobs are dying that often you probably have other issues as well.

And that only works if call beast is up... which is the interestingly the same recast as normal weakness duration (done on purpose?) though arise is lower for the whms that have that. Just you can "precharge" the time with call beast. Though really drgs have it the worst... 20 min call wyvern recast on a job that stays in melee range is painful

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Ranged can't be buffed anywhere close to what a melee can, haste is that powerful. But BST pets blow everything away, they come out with insanely high stats and powerful TP moves. SMN doesn't touch BST in the potential damage output. I would say that BST's is by far the best DD right now because it can do all that damage, hate free and with no healer support. Pets are basically DD's that can full time TP gear while also full timing WS gear while also full timing -DT gear, having zero raise weakness and can spam TP moves back to back with impunity at the start of a fight. All without a single down side.

That is what makes it broke, it's all PRO with no CON's. We did Vagery formor zone with a party consisting of BSTx5 + COR, and two GEO's inside the tank PT. It was a total joke, everything just instantly melted and we laughed the entire time. Half the pets where capable of a circular aoe, the other were that tiger with powerful single target and conal moves. Watching as one of the GEO's, it was ridiculous how easy it was compared to other setups I've done. Geo-Fraility + Geo-Torpor + Indi-wilt + Indi-refresh (or whatever) is just WTF broken in there.