Broken/Useless BLU magic

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Originally Posted by Sabishii

Right now, I'd rather use bloodrake to get my HP full in one spell, than a spell that'll just nullify the next melee swing, even if I use diffusion to give it to the whole party.

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I haven't used Bloodrake since they buffed Sanguine Blade (which I'm grateful for), though double darkness is a neat idea, it's rarely useful.

You know what's never useful though, Bulwark, perhaps if they changed it to a Migawari type effect.

First time posting in this forum haven't poured over the thread but my vote is for pollen to be adjusted. It could be a wonderful tool. I think OP mentioned Metallic Body in the same sense. Just those 2 spells would make blu a lot better in the solo dept. The self cure just added cost too much to set in the current 20/70 spell set system,

Just coming back from a few months break. I notice that Blu's Tourbillion and Barbed Crescent additional effects still do not work on most mobs. Right now, I'm using these spells on toads and pugils in Marjami Ravine, and I'm not getting the additional effects to land. Any idea how to fix this?

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Originally Posted by Tennotsukai

Just coming back from a few months break. I notice that Blu's Tourbillon and Barbed Crescent additional effects still do not work on most mobs. Right now, I'm using these spells on toads and pugils in Marjami Ravine, and I'm not getting the additional effects to land. Any idea how to fix this?

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Well maybe job points for the accuracy of additional effects might fix the issue or give a touch to it a bit maybe? Let me know as i'm adding 2 points to that Blu Job Point category and same to more blu points for spell's.

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Originally Posted by YosemiteYogorockBlondelle

Well maybe job points for the accuracy of additional effects might fix the issue or give a touch to it a bit maybe? Let me know as i'm adding 2 points to that Blu Job Point category and same to more blu points for spell's.

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It's highly doubtful. It's not a matter of them being slightly less accurate so much as they seem to be capped at a very low land rate so that even on too weak mobs they often wont land

It's not related to magic accuracy at all, it's proc rate. Both of those spells do physical damage with a chance of additional effect happening. SE has either purposely or by glitch made the proc rate stupidly low on these. I tested this on spiders in ToAU, the ones right outside in the thickets. As a 99 with 119 gear our magic acc is so far above the target that it's would be statistically impossible to have three to four in a row do complete resists. Instead it simply never proced and thus never did a MACC/MEVD check. Use Bilgestorm instead, -25% defense / attack / -10 acc and lasts for about 90 seconds. Torb IMHO is really just for SCing and BC is similiar to Mortal Ray, just there to make a job trait.

I think it would be nice to be able to proc a 33% def down on enemy bosses.

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Originally Posted by saevel

It's not related to magic accuracy at all, it's proc rate. Both of those spells do physical damage with a chance of additional effect happening. SE has either purposely or by glitch made the proc rate stupidly low on these. I tested this on spiders in ToAU, the ones right outside in the thickets. As a 99 with 119 gear our magic acc is so far above the target that it's would be statistically impossible to have three to four in a row do complete resists. Instead it simply never processed and thus never did a MACC/MEVD check. Use Bilgestorm instead, -25% defense / attack / -10 acc and lasts for about 90 seconds. Torb IMHO is really just for SCing and BC is similar to Mortal Ray, just there to make a job trait.

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What does Torb IMHO mean? I was wondering if you think if they added a blu processing cap up category or an if they added a category that increases the successful processing rate, of that would fix it? Knowing how the developers tend to find and implement things into the game in a round about sort of way...

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Originally Posted by saevel

It's not related to magic accuracy at all, it's proc rate. Both of those spells do physical damage with a chance of additional effect happening. SE has either purposely or by glitch made the proc rate stupidly low on these. I tested this on spiders in ToAU, the ones right outside in the thickets. As a 99 with 119 gear our magic acc is so far above the target that it's would be statistically impossible to have three to four in a row do complete resists. Instead it simply never proced and thus never did a MACC/MEVD check. Use Bilgestorm instead, -25% defense / attack / -10 acc and lasts for about 90 seconds. Torb IMHO is really just for SCing and BC is similiar to Mortal Ray, just there to make a job trait.

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Not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you trying to say that this spell only has an additional effect some of the time and then only if it does proc it still has to do the normal resist checks? Because I can't think of any other spells or ws in the game that I can think of like that nor a way to test if that was the case other than doing enough casts to get a rather solid land rate and see if it for certain goes below the 5% floor

As far as impossible not necessarily. Even now you'd probably get a lot of resist trying to cast sleep on say an imp but it is possible to land it. Meva/macc varies by mob and spell, effect, debuff and/or element. They theoretically could have just attached something like a -10,000 macc to the spell to all mobs.

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Originally Posted by dasva

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you trying to say that this spell only has an additional effect some of the time and then only if it does proc it still has to do the normal resist checks? Because I can't think of any other spells or ws in the game that I can think of like that nor a way to test if that was the case other than doing enough casts to get a rather solid land rate and see if it for certain goes below the 5% floor

As far as impossible not necessarily. Even now you'd probably get a lot of resist trying to cast sleep on say an imp but it is possible to land it. Meva/macc varies by mob and spell, effect, debuff and/or element. They theoretically could have just attached something like a -10,000 macc to the spell to all mobs.

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STOP

Blue spells are not magic like Black / White, they are TP moves and function using the same rules. Torb and BC are physical weapon skills like Tachi: Gekko / ect. They do damage but have a chance of procing an additional effect. With some TP moves that chance is damn near 100% while others is really low (Metatron Torment / Tachi: Agehia). Macc / MEvasion checks are only done AFTER the
effect procs, if the effect doesn't proc then no MACC/MEVD check happens.

MAcc/MEvd is really easy to understand, it's a direct comparison of your M.Acc minus the target M.Evasion with the result being the percentage chance of it happening. With magic there are multiple resist stages, typically two to four. If the first stage fails then it will check again for half resist, and then quarter and so on until there is no more stages to check. As a iLevel 119 player, our magic accuracy should be 600~700+ and a level 52 monster will be about 150 magic evasion. That's such a large difference that your going to have capped land rates no matter what. Yet testing 10+ and only one landed, but landed for a very long time. The chances of a capped magic accuracy missing twice is 2.5%. The chances of it missing twice in a row for five or more monsters is 0.000000000009765625%. That is in the realm of being so improbable as to be considered impossible, and for it to happen on multiple people adds even more decimal places. Now if the additional effect has a 10% or less proc rate, then those capped magic acc checks never happen on the hits that don't proc.

Now stop thinking it's like Thunder, Gravity, Slow or Frightful Roar.

It's all explained in this handy-dandy guide to additional effects:
http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Additional_Effect

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Originally Posted by saevel

STOP

Blue spells are not magic like Black / White, they are TP moves and function using the same rules. Torb and BC are physical weapon skills like Tachi: Gekko / ect. They do damage but have a chance of procing an additional effect. With some TP moves that chance is damn near 100% while others is really low (Metatron Torment / Tachi: Agehia). Macc / MEvasion checks are only done AFTER the
effect procs, if the effect doesn't proc then no MACC/MEVD check happens.

MAcc/MEvd is really easy to understand, it's a direct comparison of your M.Acc minus the target M.Evasion with the result being the percentage chance of it happening. With magic there are multiple resist stages, typically two to four. If the first stage fails then it will check again for half resist, and then quarter and so on until there is no more stages to check. As a iLevel 119 player, our magic accuracy should be 600~700+ and a level 52 monster will be about 150 magic evasion. That's such a large difference that your going to have capped land rates no matter what. Yet testing 10+ and only one landed, but landed for a very long time. The chances of a capped magic accuracy missing twice is 2.5%. The chances of it missing twice in a row for five or more monsters is 0.000000000009765625%. That is in the realm of being so improbable as to be considered impossible, and for it to happen on multiple people adds even more decimal places. Now if the additional effect has a 10% or less proc rate, then those capped magic acc checks never happen on the hits that don't proc.

Now stop thinking it's like Thunder, Gravity, Slow or Frightful Roar.

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Stop right there I know exactly how magic hit rate and proc rateworks. If you had thoroughly read what you are trying to argue with you'd have realized that your reasoning of why this must be the work of proc rate doesn't actually answer my questioning of whether that is actually been tested to be the case nor contradict the explanation I gave of why it might not actually be that.

I specifically mentioned spell AND ws. I know that's how normal additional effects work but can you name a ws that has been proven to work like that? Also you completely glare over me mentioning the fact that there macc checks aren't a simple your macc vs the mobs meva but takes into account things specific to the spell vs the mob (which btw is the reason why SE has repeatedly said they don't want to add macc into /checkparam because it's somewhat dependent on specific element and debuff type that further vary depending on the mob cast on) and continue to insist you must be capped magic hit rate. Unless there is some testing that shows conclusively this is definitely below floored land rate you don't know that isn't just a case of insane meva to that particular spell/effect. And the odds of it missing 10 times in a row at floor hit rates assuming no half or higher resist states is almost 60%. With just 2 resist states (which is most common for debuffs) floor hit rate would lead you to 10% chance total to land the effect which lines up fairly well with your 1/10 thing. For example like I mentioned before imps have a high resistance to dark in general like dark based sleeps. iirc it was tested to be about +120ish meva to dark sleep. Which is fairly easy to overcome now but is just an example of how different values can be. And if they can do that what's to say they didn't just give some -10,000?

There is also another possibility. It could be that this spell has an additional check after meva/macc that lowers it's hit rate. An example of this would be
It also could be that they flat out sleeping skeletons. Even a 119 rdm with elemental seal against lvl 10 skeletons will miss sleep 100% of the time under normal circumstances despite it not having the completely immune message. The exceptions to this are immunobreak which the limited testing I've done shows it seems to add some hitrate back depending on level and stymie which my even more limited testing seems to indict that it more or less just forces the effect into the next resist state.

Note in case you are thinking def down is def down why don't all of them work this horribly I'd like to point out Jettatura is resists a lot and even when you land it it wears off almost immediately while Absolute Terror lands easy.

Now if there has been testing on ws/blu spell additional effects like that to prove that then fine guess it definitely isn't. I just have never heard of such testing


Regardless of the exact mechanism that is being employed to cause these to not land even on really easy stuff it needs to be fixed. And given they work on the test server it's clear they can be


Also not particularly necessary to the conversation but why do you keep putting a "D" in the abbreviation for magic evasion? Also typically outside of flash/stun (which have an unknown number) debuffs just have 2 resist states. Usually just nukes that have more

In other words, let's get these spells fixed.