The struggle of Supporter Jobs other then BRD

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Originally Posted by Olor

What about indi-regain? If it actually gave decent regain it might be more useful than haste since haste does have a cap... then you could have geo and bard in a party.

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I don't think Regain will ever be able to be made useful unless it's set to such a retardedly high amount that it almost sort of takes the place of a pseudo haste. Capped delay reduction, it's not out of the question to be WSing every 3-5 seconds depending on multi attacks. Considering we get tics every 3 seconds, you'd need 100 regain (or 1000, to follow SE's new way of showing it) just to keep that pace up. Stacking the two would be nearly pointless as you can't really WS any faster than that, though depending on the WS, you could benefit from WSing with 200+ TP.

I keep telling myself such a massive amount of regain is broken as hell, but I suppose since a single support job can cap magic haste, maybe another support job that can give massive regain wouldn't be so out of the question either. It'd certainly make Geo much more viable for 6 man fights. Any amount of regain that isn't something so drastic is going to end up being rather pointless though, as it wouldn't be worth using one of your two Geo spells to provide it, except as a pre-fight buff.

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Originally Posted by Kari

I wouldn't mind seeing Haste, but I also wouldn't mind them doing other buffs for physical attacks as long as they are potent and don't have drawbacks.

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I'm all for unique types of buffs to physical attacks. I only say Haste as one of them because it currently exists and is that good. The ability to speed up physical attacks and reduce magical recast simultaneously with no penalty is a very strong buff. A new type of buff would have to do at least two beneficial things without penalty to be just as strong and desirable in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

True.
But this is because it has a negative impact on TP gain.
We're getting the TPgain formula adjusted in June, they *might* make it so stuff like Blitzer's Roll becomes a viable option again.

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Bolded is precisely my point why that roll is never used, it wasn't lost on me. They could do a -Delay with no penalty but at that point, they might as well make it Haste. From what I observed of the past post regarding changes to TP. The change is only revealing the currently hidden number (300 to 3000). I interpreted that as things will change down the road, because gear, spells and abilities be accurately judged. That down this will also result in new additions. For example: Something adding +125 TP where before all you would see right now is 12%. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me and quote your source for reference.

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Originally Posted by Olor

Actually there is also diffusioned blu spells, but your point still sticks! What about indi-regain? If it actually gave decent regain it might be more useful than haste since haste does have a cap... then you could have geo and bard in a party.

He says it boosts spells like Bard's instruments. Can infer from that. If +10 acts the same as it would on a bard instrument mythic GEO's refresh would actually be very nice - maybe worthwhile to stick one in a mage party of an alliance (ha ha ha that assumes mages would be useful for content!)

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I forgot about Diffusion + Blue Magic Haste. That's another ability I personally think should be shorter in recast or Blue Magic buff duration longer myself. Camate did say they are working on adding +potency to other equipment. Hopefully that means eventually Geomancer gets to the point of where Bard is. Example: How Gjallarhorn is the obvious best +potency piece overall, but the difference without it is not that massive on some songs with +potency instruments.

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To summarize, I'm not against alternative boosts to physical attacks besides Haste. However the utility would have to be massive to be competitive with Haste in the majority of newer content which is lower manned and space may be limited. Haste is very desirable and effective in the majority of strategies and situations. In my opinion, it would easier to balance jobs in the same category by having them share the strongest buffs, including Haste, to be more interchangeable to support lowman content.

"Supportive" type job identity can defined in a variety of ways: Gameplay, types of crowd control, types of damage dealt, types of recovery, prevention, and what they can bring individually to larger scale alliance (7 player +) fights that stack with each other.

The potency of GEO spells is not the problem, it's the quantity. 2 spells is NOT ENOUGH. That's really all there is to it. If the devs just gave GEO four spells (2 geo- 2 indi-) instead of two and stopped trying to fix the job's horrible design with more horrible ideas, GEO could be both useful and unique.

With 3 spells you could stack -Def/+Att, and still give the casters Refresh. With 4, you could do 2 Indi debuffs, 1 Geo debuff (e.g. -Def/+Att/-Eva), and put Geo-Refresh on casters. You wouldn't need capped haste as badly because the dps boost would be able to hold its own, or it can be tweaked so that it is equal in dps to double Marches.

BRD is the buffer standard now. It seems like SE is balancing GEO around COR/SMN when they should really be balancing COR/GEO/SMN around BRD.

I completely agree that 2 simultaneous effects is the biggest issue with Geomancer. It severely limits the job's utility in exchange for potency. Support jobs are normally desirable (in parties not alliances) for their wide range of utility versus potency. Just being potent in 1 to 2 specific things at a time, makes the job a very niche role and hence very hard to be competitive in small groups. Where you have to enhance the front line, enhance the back line, and enfeeble and/or crowd control the enemy.

I'm only a 33 Geo at the moment, but:

1) Geomancer can have two Colures out at a time.
2) It should be rewarded to keep loupans out longer, especially if they are receiving/have received Damage taken bonuses.
3) The current lack of the job is Haste; there are two types of jobs, Front line and Back line.

If I were to do something to Geomancy, I'd

1) Increase the buff duration post colure. Currently there is a small window of time after a colure expires where the buff/debuff seems to persist.
I would increase this window to better allow recasting.

2) I would add a separate passive bonus to Geo-colures and Indi-colures, repspectively. I'd make Indi-colures add to spell cast time reduction and Geo-colures add to melee haste (I may have the terminology wrong, forgive me). These bonuses wouldn't be static, though. They would have a cap, but would increase in potency the longer they are out until that cap.

This would add desirable passive bonuses for Frontline/Backline jobs without giving true haste.

Ok let me get this out of the way, I am not an expert in anyway. I am how ever in a combat related job and I understand what everyone is saying. Now before I get started I just want to say everyone is right. As well if I begin to go insane and speak gibberish I hope one of you out there can translate what I am about to say on my understanding of Support jobs like Geo......Let's do this.


Geomancer as a support is great as it allows the person to move from the front line to the back and supporting both at the same time. The problem I am seeing is that in combat a Geomancer should be laying down supressing fire ( debuffs ) on the enemy while buffing the front line and helping the rear flanks. Now this allows the Geomancer the flexibility to move within the battle space with ease to get the full battle situation awareness. Really common sense. 3 spells to cast is all a Geo needs. But how can a job like Geo do his job with out the proper kit? That's like giving a infantier a blanket and a 2x4 with a rusty nail hanging out for battle and telling him / her to "Help win the battle" (For realzies?!). Geo is a middle man like the Brd or Cor, He needs proper kit. Jerkins (Brd's and COR's get these over this guy, the heck?!) , Bows even a polearm or sword would be ideal to add to the Geos arsenal. I am not saying they are dishing physical damage with a Warrior or Dark Knight but what I am saying is that Geo has the middle ground in terms of situational battle space awareness and should have that flexablility to do such if the situation is needed. Yes Geo is a support mage by definition but as a Geo in the "Poop" of things, these things in my humble opinion need to happen.

- Able to cast 3 spells over the 2;
- Able to equipt items like JERKINS, bows or polearms and swords.
- Maybe even make me smarter nevermind.

GEO can equip hammers not that I agree that GEO should melee.

They are a buff/offensive caster class. GEO spells cost so much mp though that it's difficult or risky to cast any offensive spells.

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Originally Posted by Ultimoore

But how can a job like Geo do his job with out the proper kit?

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Geo honestly has everything it needs and then some. All it needs is the willingness of pugs to substitute it in, which you still don't find very often sans situations where +MAcc and the like are needed.

I'm not going to look for the post, but I remember you posting about "JERKINS" before. Besides being a different armor class, I don't understand a desire for them.

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Originally Posted by Malithar

I'm not going to look for the post, but I remember you posting about "JERKINS" before. Besides being a different armor class, I don't understand a desire for them.

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That is a perfectly valid ummm.... what's the word i'm looking for? Anyways, I know it appears that I am trying to make the class seem like it should be a melee but that's not what I am trying to say. I have a very hard time trying to properly get out what I'm thinking. Jerkins in my thinking process are armor type that... fit to the "ideals" of what a Geomancer is, Flexible. One min I fight a Gigas laying down some magic everything from Debuffs and attack spells to fighting a magic based creature and my "rod" weapon skills do more damage to it than my attack spells. Jerkins have not only elemental ups but also add say for the Northern jerkin -6 Fire +5 Ice +4 Wind and +6 Attack. But also has great Def as well giving me that flexability on the battle field . I know alot of you don't understand what I'm saying but as a support job I need that flexability to help where I can.

When I make a party with my Fellow and Ego's. I call ego's in and out like its going out of style. Like how people change gear for certain spells or abilities. Geo effectiveness in terms of magic I have little to no complaints I just feel Geo gets shafted in terms of kit due to his/her ability to cast magic. Geo after lv 58 (I think) never get to see a Hammer again. Why? they get to use one for the other 50 some lvls. Same with Doublets, makes no sense to me. I could also see a Geo using a Bow but that slot is taken up by the bell ( which I love having ). I am just throwing these Idea's out there really bounce them off each other and see what we can come up with. But I love hearing feedback. I don't know if that really answered it but I hope it did. Let me know If I am not explaining something properly please.

Welcome to the world of Red Mage; you want to be a versatile melee/mage but you're really not.

You may be thinking of the FF Tactics Geomancer, which was indeed a melee class, wielding light armor (iirc) and hammers/axes/swords. However, they were far, far weaker in their magic capabilities, limited to whatever terrain they or the enemy was standing on, meaning that the majority of their spells literally could not be cast. This is taking to the more magic side of Geomancer, which we see in a lot of other titles; FF3 and FF5 both accent a magic-based geomancer who uses bells as their primary weapon, and while early in 3 you could use a Geomancer in the frontline wielding double bells for good damage, it drops off severely in favor of their Geomancy ability, giving them powerful effects like Shadowflare and such.

Geomancer is a mage, pure and simple; while all mages have some potential to melee (SMN alongside their avatar, the advent of the WHM/NIN, SCHs and BLMs getting TP with nukes while meleeing, etc), the fact of the matter is that they are not built to do so in moderate to high tier content. Frontlines usually only have their physical attacks going for them, with only some (BLU, PLD, DRK) having some magic functions. Of those, BLU is the one who can mix magic and melee best; PLD and DRK have, for the most part, supplementary spells, i.e. Flash/Reprisal/Cures etc for PLD, and Absorbs/Endark/Drains etc for DRK. Mages, on the other hand, have a wide range of versatile abilities in varying tiers so that they can control their enmity generation, their power, and the general flow of battle depending on their choice of spells.

For a GEO, they have incredibly potent buffs, and even if they only have two, they can change a game. Me being GEO in my Incursion group with Indi-haste up as one of my buffs means that with one March my DDs cap, and our WHM can worry about erases, healing, etc without having to keep up a haste cycle. This makes their job incredibly more easy. Combined with Fury or Frailty on all but the boss of the area, my DDs kill stuff even faster, making our runs more successful. You could ask, "well since you're in the frontline with Indi-Haste, why don't you melee?" Truth be told, I used to. A lot. But that was a lower levels, 123-125. At that point, my acc tanked, even with food and better accuracy gear (Ouryu body eludes me yet though...). Additionally, my role became a ton more focused on stunning between buff casts, to mitigate damage to the party, so I constantly have to switch between my club for Refresh and my staff for either recast (Apa II) or accuracy once resist builds (Twebuliij). I can't keep up TP even if I could hit, because I have to stun every 10-15 seconds or so.

Unlike BLU and RDM, who are very confused as to their job identity and sit on the fence due to a mix of SE decisions and community expectations (BLU leaning towards melee with some spell use, while RDM tends to be preferred as a buffer/caster), GEO has a very set-in-stone role. They are a pure caster, which means they use cloth-type armor and are not intended to melee. I do wonder why they were put on hammers/mauls early on to be taken off later, but then again there's not a lot of those in endgame either.

Geomancer has never been a "mage pure and simple". Geomancer has always been a Mixed class type. Yes their attack is not comparable to a melee type class but they do more damage melee wise over your average mage. eg: Wiki Final Fantasy jobs.

Even stat growths on both FF3 and FF5 gave Geomancer very even stat with AGI and INT just having a lead over the other stats (shown here). I see the same thing in this game. If the Dev team say made a series of rods that are Geomancer specific Handbell similar to Hammers for WHM, maybe giving slightly more damage on the Handbells followed with some jerkins it would help with Indi-Haste on the frontline. This would allow Geomancers to to have that ability to not be as squishy.