Thief Treasure Hunter

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Originally Posted by Daemon

Not really, Thief was very popular for Abyssea, Shin. It was since VW thief become useless, other than Bully for proc, then again BST was needed for Pet Procs yet no one wanted BST lol.

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THF has been in this boat long before VW.

And Abyssea is Abyssea. That is not THF being on the stage, that is Abyssea allowing everyone to turn on God Mode with Atmas.

I'm truly sorry to say this, but until a DNC can crank out numbers like a WAR, it makes sense that the group looks for wars.

To turn a similar phrase on myself: Until PLD can hold hate like a monk or war, it makes sense that the group doesn't want me on the boss.

Even PLD, as much as I love it, I know when it's impractical to bring it, and I'm not inclined to bring it to such things. It is not the community that imposes this on each other.

Some of the best geared topend players I know have soft spots for jobs they love like nin, dnc, pld, rdm, blm, run, thf, drg (pld gets to supertank, and drg gets to go sometimes for Angon) and most desire that SE would bring some of those jobs into the spotlight, but until they do, players know they're impractical.

I built an Aegis and Ochain during mid-late Abyssea, I know all about building gearsets that I never got to really use.

As for DNC, PUP, NIN, and BLU's uses... All 4, properly understood, should excel at being an independent killer in new skirmish.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

THF has been in this boat long before VW.

And Abyssea is Abyssea. That is not THF being on the stage, that is Abyssea allowing everyone to turn on God Mode with Atmas.

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Well I don't know about you but people always asked me to TH zone bosses, EMP trial NMs on top of +2's.

But when you say LONG, my main is RDM and well we've been under the bed tucked in a shoe box buried in the basement over the past several years too long to remember when we actually had any purpose.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

XD Like paladin :(. Supertanking doesn't count.

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At least PLD has a use in WKs though. Nothing in Adoulin at all has called for a THF, I mean hell, when it came out they could not even be bothered to think of adding things for Steal, it took them like 2 months to even add things you could steal. Also, TH has had next to no effect on the content, the only things I think a THF would matter for is outside NMs, to help bead drops/gear drops, something no one does, and Airlixirs, which you get more of if you bring a proper DD of equal skill/gear. All in all, I have to say, PLD at least has something going for it, and its even required for an event, while THF sadly cant say the same.

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Originally Posted by Daemon

Well I don't know about you but people always asked me to TH zone bosses, EMP trial NMs on top of +2's.

But when you say LONG, my main is RDM and well we've been under the bed tucked in a shoe box buried in the basement over the past several years too long to remember when we actually had any purpose.

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That should give you a better idea then, becuase THF has been in this boat LONG before RDM was useless.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

That should give you a better idea then, becuase THF has been in this boat LONG before RDM was useless.

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Since when? Maybe you can enlighten me, Thief was always invited for exp groups back in the day. Sharkbite.

Always invited to Sky, HNM events, Abbysea, Salvage, Limbus, Dyna.. And whatever else I'm missing.

I don't even call VW a proper event because proc system made it easy. Then again who invited RDM over SCH and BLMs?

RDM became irrelevant in most events due to resist/completely resist enfeebling along with giving the majority of our unique spells to anyone subbing RDM =p.

And most mages subbed RDM making us worth less.

Other than Haste and heals as RDM, Thief was always included in events where TH, Feint, Collaberator, SATA needed to steal/direct hate.

In Abyssea THF could duo most NMs with a healer. I know I partied almost all my seals/+2s with 1 Thief as a BLM.

Definitely had one farming Emp trials.

It's different now because SoA requires more than what is being offered on the table for THF.

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Originally Posted by Daemon

Since when? Maybe you can enlighten me, Thief was always invited for exp groups back in the day. Sharkbite.

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That was like 8 years ago.

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Originally Posted by Daemon

Always invited to Sky, HNM events,

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"Come on red mage and invite my mule. He will tag it with TH. Afterwards drop him and get the bard back in".

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Originally Posted by Daemon

Abbysea,

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If all the procs are covered

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Originally Posted by Daemon

Salvage,

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"You get cells last"

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Originally Posted by Daemon

Limbus,

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I'll give you that one.

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Originally Posted by Daemon

Dyna..

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the last three years, only to solo, but even then, if you have 2 people, one should just sub thf.

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Originally Posted by Daemon

on't even call VW a proper event because proc system made it easy. Then again who invited RDM over SCH and BLMs?

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Originally Posted by Daemon

RDM became irrelevant in most events due to resist/completely resist enfeebling along with giving the majority of our unique spells to anyone subbing RDM =p.

And most mages subbed RDM making us worth less.

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Which is why I quit playing the job :/

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Originally Posted by Daemon

Other than Haste and heals as RDM, Thief was always included in events where TH, Feint, Collaberator, SATA needed to steal/direct hate.

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I did a lot of stuff on thf. I shared parses with my LSs showing me in the top 3 DDs consistently at evens where they let me go thf. They still made me go RDM most of the time because it was that much more useful and you could usually use a few at an event. Luckily I liked that job, so it was a win/win.

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Originally Posted by Daemon

In Abyssea THF could duo most NMs with a healer. I know I partied almost all my seals/+2s with 1 Thief as a BLM.

Definitely had one farming Emp trials.

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I did most of my LS abyssea runs as BLM or BLU for procs. I did all my other stuff as NIN with my alt on WHM/THF. It worked well. I only went / brought a thief when all procs were covered and nobody minded because damage isn't an issue in abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Daemon

It's different now because SoA requires more than what is being offered on the table for THF.

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True story. They made the job all gimpy based on treasure hunter and then released an entire expansion that doesn't use treasure hunter.

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Originally Posted by Daemon

Since when? Maybe you can enlighten me, Thief was always invited for exp groups back in the day. Sharkbite.

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The only time SATAWS on THF was a relevant source of damage was during leveling up when Viper Bite was a competitive WS. By the time THF gets Sharkbite, people had already moved on to SATAWS with 2 Handers, which did more damage.

Until they moved on to TP spam and abandoned SATA lines altogether because they did less damage.

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Always invited to Sky, HNM events, Abbysea, Salvage, Limbus, Dyna.. And whatever else I'm missing.

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Which is the issue we are talking about. They were not invited for any other purpose than Treasure Hunter (damage, utility or otherwise).

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I don't even call VW a proper event because proc system made it easy. Then again who invited RDM over SCH and BLMs?

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The same can be said of Abyssea, which was 100X easier than Voidwatch.

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RDM became irrelevant in most events due to resist/completely resist enfeebling along with giving the majority of our unique spells to anyone subbing RDM =p.

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RDM for a very very long period of the game was one of the most in damand jobs. This didn;t change until the level cap raise, which is relatively recent in the game's history

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Other than Haste and heals as RDM, Thief was always included in events where TH, Feint, Collaberator, SATA needed to steal/direct hate.

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You are stating a lot of utility in that sentence that Thief simply does not have. TH is the only reason people bring a THF to anything. TH is a weak passive trait and feint really isn't relevant because Accuracy is accounted for with support setups. A dd slot would not be wasted to bring a THF for feint...which is why you don;t see groups bringing them for it.

No one brings THF to SATA or manage hate or any of that.

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In Abyssea THF could duo most NMs with a healer. I know I partied almost all my seals/+2s with 1 Thief as a BLM.

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Almost any job +whm could duo anything in Abyssea. Besides which, Treasure Hunter is a secondary concern to getting your weakness triggers in order. If you have a choice between bringing BLM and TH for +2 farming for example...you bring the BLM, not the THF (or just have the BLM/THF).

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It's different now because SoA requires more than what is being offered on the table for THF

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Yeah, there really isn;t much of anything in SoA for the Thief job

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Originally Posted by Nebo

THF has been in this boat LONG before RDM was useless.

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My point was THF was included in a variety of events than RDM. Since ToAu release RDM started on the path of becoming useless when SE implemented Mage Ballad for Bard. Evokers Roll for Corsair.

Resist / Completely resist was implement before cap was raised to 99. If i remember correctly this happened during 75 era. RDM was highly popular in a sense that we could enfeeble, Refresh and Phalanx Paladin Kiting HNM and step in to Kite giving fallen party members time to recover. Because SE added Resist and Completely resist, highly used spells such as Gravity, Bind, made the concept of kiting completely useless. Therefore RDM was unable to be useful and people started giving up on playing the job because other than being a secondary healer, RDM is not a primary DD that could hold hate and completely resist made it pointless for end game.

As for THF, yes I agree that the job is only used for Treasure hunter. Shark bite example was meant to be the example of how thief was popular 8 years ago, of course no one uses that now because this example was meant to take you back during the time 6 man groups were formed for exp. this was even before level sync was implemented.

At least throughout time THF was still included as a first priority to events that wanted rare items unlike RDM too many other jobs were invited that could replace us because RDM was never good at anything else other than a secondary healer, Refresh, Enfeebling.

As level cap rised, RDM became pointless when other jobs were allowed to carry most of our trademark spells such as Dispel, Gravity, Refresh, Phalanx.

Upon releasing Scholar, RDM was no longer invited for anything because Accession allowed the ability to share Enspells, Phalanx, Refresh. Also Convert encouraged jobs to sub RDM.

As for Thief duo in Abyssea, thief has the ability to be an evasion tanker by subbing Ninja for utsusemi and having 2 evasion Magian trial daggers with gear. (Which is why I said most people I partied with were THF)

Collaborator allowed THF to keep hate when tanking mobs. Or used in party to help mages when THF was invited for TH.

Feint was still used in Abyssea. Whether or not accuracy could be accounted for through support not every party brought the proper support which still made the ability still useful.

Maybe no one invited THF primarily for Feint but it was still used.

Anyways the main point of why I brought up this discussion is yes Thief is lacking the ability to be useful at Endgame. As the job deteriorated throughout the years, Now Treasure Hunter, which was the main reason THF was invited to all events, is being left out in SoA making Thief useless.

Also as I see the Devs are implementing all this iLvL gear, I'm hoping they haven't forgotten jobs such as THF.

As for Thief Knife example in my original post, this was meant to show the DEV Team how far behind THF is falling.

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Originally Posted by Daemon

My point was THF was included in a variety of events than RDM. Since ToAu release RDM started on the path of becoming useless when SE implemented Mage Ballad for Bard. Evokers Roll for Corsair.

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RDM was one of the most sought after jobs in the ToAU era. I remember having a VERY tough time getting into PUG groups on THF in ToAU. If memory serves, that's when I leveled BRD and learned to meripo pull.

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Shark bite example was meant to be the example of how thief was popular 8 years ago, of course no one uses that now because this example was meant to take you back during the time 6 man groups were formed for exp. this was even before level sync was implemented.

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SATA Shark Bite was never popular is my point. SATA Shark Bite was inferior to...SATA Spinning Slash for example. No one invited Thieves for SATA lines in exp parties back then at those levels. They invited 2 Handed DD/THF that could SATAWS for more damage. It was very hard to get invites on THF for exp. at those levels.

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As for Thief duo in Abyssea, thief has the ability to be an evasion tanker by subbing Ninja for utsusemi and having 2 evasion Magian trial daggers with gear. (Which is why I said most people I partied with were THF)

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THF is not the only (or even the best job) that can duo tank things in Abyssea though. Evasion gear was not needed, nor was /nin (but was useful sometimes for yellow procs, not specifically shadows). Almost every DD can do what you just described with a WHM/THF and produce identical results - Better if you are a NIN needing KI procs, a MNK or WAR needing Blue Procs, a BLM needed yellow procs etc.

Treasure Hunter is third string in Abyssea

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Collaborator allowed THF to keep hate when tanking mobs. Or used in party to help mages when THF was invited for TH.

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It might be useful for helping mages if not for the short range...and long/shared cool downs. Low man tanking is about all I find Collaborator to be useful for...but SE doesn't really want THF to be tanking...I digress.

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Feint was still used in Abyssea. Whether or not accuracy could be accounted for through support not every party brought the proper support which still made the ability still useful.

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Eh, I want to say that Feint had zero use in abyssea. But an argument can be made for low skill rated weapons for procs. Even then though, it's not really worth bringing a THF for that purpose...even at low skill, with atmas and cruor buffs, feint is hardly something I would consider valuable.

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Anyways the main point of why I brought up this discussion is yes Thief is lacking the ability to be useful at Endgame. As the job deteriorated throughout the years, Now Treasure Hunter, which was the main reason THF was invited to all events, is being left out in SoA making Thief useless.

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I can agree with that. But hey, at least they separated the timers for steal/despoil (and added some useless things for us to despoil form new monsters):rolleyes:

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Also as I see the Devs are implementing all this iLvL gear, I'm hoping they haven't forgotten jobs such as THF.

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I don't think they've forgotten about the job, but it certainly feels like they don't know what to do with it.

RMTs abused all the lock picking, item stealing etc stuff that made thief really unique so they took it away.

It was once a powerful (and tactical) damage dealer at a certain level and pace of the game. That is no longer the case. There was a high reward for the skill it took to play THF well...that reward no longer exists and almost everything the job has left is laughably weak.

They say enmity this and enmity that, but they don't know how to give THF enmity abilities that are worth anything.

I think Thief players now are just like drug addicts...chasing the feeling that was there the first time they played the job, but never getting it again. The first time they closed a SATAVB distortion Skill chain Magic Burst and watched a monster explode. The first time they pulled an astral ring out of a coffer, the first time they sold a stack of gold beast coins.

Now, it's just a weak damage dealer with unreasonable restrictions that has a weak, passive random number generator enhancing trait.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

I don't think they've forgotten about the job, but it certainly feels like they don't know what to do with it.

RMTs abused all the lock picking, item stealing etc stuff that made thief really unique so they took it away.

It was once a powerful (and tactical) damage dealer at a certain level and pace of the game. That is no longer the case. There was a high reward for the skill it took to play THF well...that reward no longer exists and almost everything the job has left is laughably weak.

They say enmity this and enmity that, but they don't know how to give THF enmity abilities that are worth anything.

I think Thief players now are just like drug addicts...chasing the feeling that was there the first time they played the job, but never getting it again. The first time they closed a SATAVB distortion Skill chain Magic Burst and watched a monster explode. The first time they pulled an astral ring out of a coffer, the first time they sold a stack of gold beast coins.

Now, it's just a weak damage dealer with unreasonable restrictions that has a weak, passive random number generator enhancing trait.

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Yeah I just think SE "Could" be much more creative in adding things to thief. I mean I made a TP topic about the fact that losing TP upon switching weapons prevent new ideas.

I think as a tactical way of participating in parties would be adding various Debuff daggers. Sort of like making thief a DD version of Redmage.

Since Thief can attack very fast multiple times. Stats can be shifted to balance thief power based on the debuff of the dagger being used.

Things like Drain TP, Drain MP, Reduce INT, Reduce STR, as dagger debuffs to help the party maintain control like RDM enfeebling magic.

Even adding dagger weapons like Curse, Doom, Death, Petrification would be cool except these weapons would have to be treated as Holy Grail weapons for serious players who play Thief as a main job.

Although we don't even have a spell that allows us to petrify monsters effectively I think it would be cool to follow a different concept than Break. The concept of Petrify should be like stoneskin but stronger. The amount of damage party hits petrified mob would break Petrification.

Or adding new things like grenades, bombs, traps, things to temporarily stop a mob or boss.

Then again Rocket Launchers would be nice too.

Lots of discussions on the Thief boards about job updates. I'm not really a fan of debuff things, only because there are already so many support options that it likely wouldn't give THF any competitive advantage

I'm more for the DD increase with enmity utility these days. My current favorite is my most recent revamp suggestion found here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post449038

Aside from the fact that THF has weaker overall potential for damage, even when able to meet its positional requirements 100% and ride SATA timers as they are available...

...the greater problem with the whole "positional requirements" shtick is that no other jobs HAVE to play by those rules to do well. Yeah, SAM has overwhelm, and NIN has Innin, but not fulfilling those requirements does not cause their WS to suck immensely. So you have THF, trying to run around and play the positional game solo.

It is a hassle for groups to try to accommodate THF's positional DD nature. THF DD is too weak to create a positional strategy around. So groups invite jobs with greater DD potential that they don't have to think about.

If they REALLY wanted to bring back tanking and tactical positioning they'd make it so that certain enemies have damage resistance and the only way to break it is to keep the monster still and not constantly changing enmity targets. They could even add a system similar to stagger in FF13 which granted a damage multiplier that was increased by magic damage and sustained by physical combat.

OR they could limit the types and amount of jobs that can be in a party. You want a challenge? Ok now you HAVE to fill party slots with one of: 1 Tank (PLD/NIN/RUN) , 1 Light DD (THF/PUP/BLU/BST/DNC), 1 Heavy DD(RNG/DRK/SAM/WAR/MNK/DRG) 1 Healer (WHM/SCH/RDM) 1 Support (BRD/COR/GEO) and 1 Magic Damage (BLM/SMN/SCH).

Create a situation where the most efficient way to deal damage is to coordinate skillchains and MB, control monsters positionally, etc.....but eh, that's a different topic.

I think all the THF mains I know have long since given up that SE is going to throw the job a meaningful bone.

I really don't think the problem is so much that THF deals less damage than other DD's. It's that we don't get to participate as a result. And short of a complete overhaul of current battle mechanics, I don't believe anything other than a DD boost is going to allow THF to participate. The best utility a melee can offer is to be able to make things deader faster with dramatic increases from proper support. THF gains a lot less from proper support than other jobs.

People keep bringing up enmity.. Did I miss something or did SE say something new about enmity?

The enmity update in April had nothing to do with tanking, but that healers were just putting out way too much hate in the course of a battle. While it did temporarily make tanking feasible, at least for small groups, that was only a coincidental side-effect, delve weapons broke it the very next week.

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On topic, yeah, I hate being on thf because the mob is usually spinning, you can't effectively SA or TA. The player in front of you fidgets, or you misjudge, and that dps is lost, as well as a chance at a proc for the reason the group invited you.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

People keep bringing up enmity.. Did I miss something or did SE say something new about enmity?

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Probably because enmity manipulation is one of the roles that SE keeps trying to tell the players that they should bring a THF along for.

They just can't seem to give us anything meaningful to manipulate enmity.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

If they REALLY wanted to bring back tanking and tactical positioning they'd make it so that certain enemies have damage resistance and the only way to break it is to keep the monster still and not constantly changing enmity targets. They could even add a system similar to stagger in FF13 which granted a damage multiplier that was increased by magic damage and sustained by physical combat.

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If they did that then you'd just bring back PLD tanking with DD/THF SA+WS for hate holding, wouldn't change anything for THF.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

OR they could limit the types and amount of jobs that can be in a party. You want a challenge? Ok now you HAVE to fill party slots with one of: 1 Tank (PLD/NIN/RUN) , 1 Light DD (THF/PUP/BLU/BST/DNC), 1 Heavy DD(RNG/DRK/SAM/WAR/MNK/DRG) 1 Healer (WHM/SCH/RDM) 1 Support (BRD/COR/GEO) and 1 Magic Damage (BLM/SMN/SCH).

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PLD, BLU, WAR, WHM, BRD, SCH depending on mob weakness etc you`d maybe swap PLD for RUN and WAR for DRG or SAM but you won't ever add a THF in there unless you needed TH simple as....

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Originally Posted by Nebo

Probably because enmity manipulation is one of the roles that SE keeps trying to tell the players that they should bring a THF along for.

They just can't seem to give us anything meaningful to manipulate enmity.

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SE keep saying THF is an enmity manipulator, which job was it that was getting a new enmity SP? oh yea, thats right SCH, well played SE well played

This is another example of the stigma THF Gets, people still can't comprehend that a good THF can out DD many a folk, I'm not going to bother reposting it but you can find the link in a previous post in this thread that shows a THF no less within 1~2% below and above Oatix MNKs in Tojil runs... All the credibility is there and no amount of strawmen will change THF's potential.

The DD were good, the MNKs were good, the THF was good. Having a D:108~ Dagger really does help. THF is just screwed on weaponskills, I can say with certainty if that THF Could have used Mercy Stroke with the Delve MB Dagger, they'd of done much better in the parse.

THF isn't above and beyond a Terrible DD, Its just most if not all people play it with incredible mediocrity so you have a hard time convincing anyone of letting you in the DD Party, and its much more gear and competency controlled than ay other mindless DD job... but equally buffed and extremely well geared, a THF Will provide substantial DD potential as well as being able to contribute whatever meaning TH has.

Its not to say the job isn't in serious need of a rehaul, but a lot of our woes could be solved by more people playing the job well, which unfortunately doesn't happen because its a very very hard job to play well and its extremely gear reliant.

I'd love to see the thread if you could give me a hint as key phrases to search for.

Because honestly, take away SA, TA, because those are more frustrating than useful in zergs, and thf is a "DD" without native DD enhancement besides Triple Attack II (6% supposedly), and Assassin's Charge. The new daggers hit harder, but dagger is still, by design, a weapon that doesn't hit hard. I would say that I never see thf really competitive for damage, but it's also true that thf isn't in the DD parties so I agree it has the potential for more than it usually does.

Of course, a thf competing for damage would also likely sub war, just like all the other DDs, but in a practical environment, thf should sub dnc in lieu of a real dnc for stutter step and the benefit that gives to the group, samba, and sure, even the ability to waltz himself.

Of course, stutter step isn't as necessary anymore, right now, but new delve may bring back its usefulness.

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Originally Posted by Calatilla

If they did that then you'd just bring back PLD tanking with DD/THF SA+WS for hate holding, wouldn't change anything for THF...

..PLD, BLU, WAR, WHM, BRD, SCH depending on mob weakness etc you`d maybe swap PLD for RUN and WAR for DRG or SAM but you won't ever add a THF in there unless you needed TH.

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I agree none of those things would specifically help THF without adjustment to the job. That was more in the context of party variety and group mechanics that could be more inclusive to the various types of jobs the game has.

It was intended more of an example to illustrate that there are things they could do to change the paradigm away from Melee + Support Zerg all the things.

People do it because it's the most efficient way to do it. Change the most efficient way to do it and people will do it differently.

If they want THF to be good for enmity they could simply change Trick Attack so that it gives all of the enmity the THF has to the person in front of them rather than only the enmity for a single attack. That alone would mean a THF could rip hate off of other people with their current JAs and then throw a large chunk of enmity at a tank with Trick Attack.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

People do it because it's the most efficient way to do it. Change the most efficient way to do it and people will do it differently.

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People also do it because its the only way to get it done. If you tried to go slowish on a Tojil run, let a PLD tank and bring support jobs to allow the PLD to tank rather than zerg it, you would never reach Tojil. It would take you to long to get to him.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

I'd love to see the thread if you could give me a hint as key phrases to search for.

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Technically we have Triple Attack+11% As if you're a THF and dont merit Triple Attack you deserve your THF Badge taken away :P.

Still, First report, a tad doom and gloom, but see below for the final.

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I took my THF into Tojil run last weekend, was not happy with the results. Against Tojil, I did 13% while the SAM was 21%, MNKs were 19%, 16% and 13%(died). DRG was 15%. Mercy was doing 1.5k the first 25%, about 8k the second 25% when it's weak to piercing and 4k the rest of the time. Don't think I got chaos rolls though, though I did pop RCB and berserk. Exenterator was doing laughable damage the whole way through, doing about 1/3 to 1/2 the damage of Mercy Stroke.

Not to say that THF DD was ever amazing, but the further we're forced to go on without upgrading Mercy Stroke, the further behind we'll fall.

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Second report

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After people started leaving, I jumped my THF to the main DD party and the results weren't bad. First run had me at 14%, drg 15%, mnks 16%/16%/18%/18%. Second run had me at 17.5%, mnks at 16%/17.8%/18%/18% and one pickup mnk at 10%; my damage picked up a bit because I wasn't sharing piercing weak with the drg anymore. Third run we wiped because being a DD, main curing and being the only stunner is a bad idea. Seems alt+tab'ing can only do so much. I don't run a bot, so people died, stun resisted and we wiped.

And also, the core members of my group are all top tier players, have mostly capped gear and everyone has mega boss weapons, and know how to play their job well, so I'm not parsing against a bunch of gimps.

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Both made by the same person, a very reputable person, and a THF i look up too. I believe they've posted here before. If so, Sorry for draggin' ya into this :D

Dunno man, the guy was on stun duty, main curing, AND playing a DD job but was still able to be competitive? Just seems too good to be true.

I imagine it must seem that way, but personally I believe they're a well known and respected THF who knows their sh*t. I trust them as they have no real reason to lie. People just fail to believe the potential THF has because theres so many mediocre gimps that the mediocrity has become the norm and expected.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

People just fail to believe the potential THF has because theres so many mediocre gimps that the mediocrity has become the norm and expected.

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It was not till I read this that I fully understood how similar RDM & THF are so far as their place in this game goes, as I feel the same way for RDM.

Yep, /shame, I forgot about the merit lol.

A mandau thf competing with Oatixur mnks seems to be good to be true. I mean honestly, people wouldn't expect a mandau thf to keep pace with a Vere or Spharai Mnk.

They didn't use Mandau on the second parse as far as i know, But instead used the Megaboss Dagger/Aphotic.

Mandau was only one the first run where you can see they fell behind a strong amount.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

They didn't use Mandau on the second parse as far as i know, But instead used the Megaboss Dagger/Aphotic.

Mandau was only one the first run where you can see they fell behind a strong amount.

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my damage picked up a bit because I wasn't sharing piercing weak with the drg anymore.

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I'm sure he did fine, but in my opinion, there too many factors at play that could account for his % that have nothing to do with The THF job being a competitive DD at tojil.

It's a nice parse, but it doesn't specifically prove much.

Proves at the very least THF can perform competently if they gear right and aren't terrible. The fact he was able to even get 17.5% regardless of having 25% Piercing bonus window means its pretty decent.

I've read similar threads to this one several times so excuse me if I skip over the debate and just drop in:

They should just detect anybody who wears Thief's Knife + Asn Armlets + Raid. Poulaines for more than 30 seconds straight and autoban them.

That is all. Carry on.

Witty and cute, except that they advise players to do it.

I can understand max TH gear being necessary for a hit (it's still flawed design that a very weak weapon is part of that), but the amount of TH you have shouldn't affect the upgrade rate.

If anything, if they really feel gear should be part of that, make it part of armlets +2. "Increases the upgrade rate of treasure hunter.".

They also advise players to use Ninjas as tanks. SE puts things in their games without consulting how the players view the mechanics, or in cases like this, plain common sense. If you anything more than put on your TH gear for the initial tag and opt to spend 5x the amount of time slowly white-hitting something to death using your Thief's Knife you have a very distorted concept of opportunity cost. The testing that has been done for TH past level 2 suggests that each level comes out to being an extra pair of trousers from a monster every 100 trousers.

Even if you want to argue that that's one more than you would've gotten, think about that from a "how often/long am I playing this game" perspective- you are going on 100 runs to kill 100 hellbeasts and unless you are a obsessive person that runs 5 times a day, this means you're getting maybe 1 extra pair of trousers every year or something. The initial tag of TH7 is worth it because it only takes a couple seconds of your time and it's an increase of 4-5% over what you would've had otherwise. Spending 10 minutes hitting something hoping to go above lv8 or 9 (even getting to 9 requires like 100 rounds in TH7 gear on average) is insane. Keep in mind the evidence suggests that it's not an absolute increase of 1% otherwise it would certainly be worth it for low-drop items. Before Adoulin came along I might've accepted people meleeing in the armlets and the boots because it was the knife that really hurt your DPS, but with the massive power creep in armor stats coming too the armlets and the boots are also problems now.

The fact that some guy at the SE headquarters who probably doesn't even play the game came up with this mechanic and made it so worthless nearly makes me have an aneurysm every time I think about it. It's so stupid that the only way it would make sense to me is that they realized how obsessive their playerbase is and thought of it as a diabolical plan to artificially increase your playtime while making you think you're actually getting something done when you see those feathers fly out of your dagger.

(Yes I know I sound cranky, but srsly actively trying to increase your TH is a waste of time)

I never said a thing about white-hitting something to death. I hate people that do that at Behemoth. I especially hate people that do that single-wielding a thief's knife.

It's already achievable with the 9% belt, or a 7% belt and Ionis, but it won't be long before haste-capping with TH gear on is commonplace. I can't imagine that hands and boots being on are a huge dps loss when you're switching them for ws, as you should be.

Maybe I'd feel different if thf was being invited to things where the speed of the kill was vital, or even worth concern. Certainly, if they change the mechanics of the class, it would be time to rethink things. As for solo farming, like dynamis, I can't help but kill too fast Izi and Apho melt everything solo.

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I can't imagine that hands and boots being on are a huge dps loss when you're switching them for ws, as you should be.

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It was already a pretty big drop in DPS in old pre-Adoulin sets, in the ballpark of 5% or so (This is without losing any haste btw, I used to swap out Raiders Armlets +2 and Asn. Poulaines +2 for the TH stuff before Salvage 2 came along), basically the only time I bothered meleeing in it, like you, was in Dynamis before I had procced anything because I usually just kill them before I am able to proc them, so might as well get some chances at some extra TH. Other than that I can think of one situation where the increased THF damage doesn't matter- places where THF is taken to poke monster for TH and then run back. In these cases you can just full time the TH and maybe plant random sneak attacks and hope for the best.

If hands and feet weren't ilevel slots it wouldn't be as big a deal, but now you're losing like 40-50 base stats etc from swapping the two out, it can make a really big difference (not to mention now those slots DO have haste now). I wouldn't be surprised by a 15+% drop in DPS simply by wearing the TH stuff. THF gets a lot of its damage from TP phase.

But you are right that there's a lot of other things they could fix for the job. Personally I think they should just remove the stupid TH level up mechanic though, because players that don't know any better think it actually does something. I'll take the 10 less bills a week from Dynamis, I can handle it.

(In b4 their solution is to make AF1+2 all have TH+5 on it so THFs only ever wear that anymore, "we want you to assess the situation and see when you should be wearing full Rogue's+2 or gear 10 levels higher")

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

It's already achievable with the 9% belt, or a 7% belt and Ionis, but it won't be long before haste-capping with TH gear on is commonplace. I can't imagine that hands and boots being on are a huge dps loss when you're switching them for ws, as you should be.

Maybe I'd feel different if thf was being invited to things where the speed of the kill was vital, or even worth concern. Certainly, if they change the mechanics of the class, it would be time to rethink things. As for solo farming, like dynamis, I can't help but kill too fast Izi and Apho melt everything solo.

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I think i see your logic. You think THF is a useless job and its just not accepted in endgame, and therefor you care so little about it its difficult for you to comprehend that people who truly love the job hate the idea of TH and the failed logic of keeping said gear on and the "Im hr 4 th imma th" mindset that makes normally logical people play like mediocre retards half-a**ing their way to high levels of PlaceboHunter.

That's not to say that's your playstyle, but its the playstle of many-a-thief. Regardless, back before I.lv gear, Hands/Feet being swapped meant that you were, for an example lets say you were using EMp+2 Hands and Relic+2 Feet. Here's the differences.

Treasure Hunter Fulltime TP:

AGI+15
CHR+7
Acc+9
Eva+20
Enmity+5
TH+3.

Useful Armor:

STR+8
DEX+15
CHR+7
Triple Attack+3%
Increases Triple Attack Damage (+3%)
Accuracy+12
Attack+16
Enmity+4

Loss from Fulltime TH Gear:

STR+8
DEX+15
Triple Attack+3%
inc. Trp. Dmg +3%
Acc+3
Attack+16

Gains:

AGI+15
Evasion+20
1 Enmity

I.E Massiv Differences... Even before I.lv Gear. After Item level gear? Well use Iuitl Hands and Iuitl Feet, which will take you like an hour or less worth of effort to obtain. We'll not add Augments (Which would likely be Double Attack+2% each). But here...

Net Gains from Iuitl Gear

STR+19
DEX+47
VIT+35
AGI+28 (over raiders)
MND+34
INT+10
CHR+38
Attack+10
Evasion+53 (Over raiders)
Acc-1 (Asn+2)
m.eva+86
Haste+8

This isn't mentioning PDT-8% and Dbl Atk+4% from both pieces with perfect augments, and I'm leaving out some of the more useless stuff (Snapshot, MDB), and i'm not mentioning the gigantic DEF Gain, honestly if you don't see how this stuff would vastly, VASTLY impact your melee DPS and survivability i don't think you're looking hard enough. The DEX alone is enough to make your dDEX capped on many a thing... It has more of everything except Accuracy, which is made up for in spades through the large DEX bonuses.

Even if the haste doesn't apply because you cap it elsewhere, you're going to be losing significant amounts of DPS fulltiming TH Gear even if only during the TP phase.

Genuinely, thank you for a serious and informative reply.

It truly is tragic that the job has fallen to bits when there are players that truly love it. The same for RDM, PLD, SMN and a few others.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I think i see your logic. You think THF is a useless job and its just not accepted in endgame, and therefor you care so little about it its difficult for you to comprehend that people who truly love the job hate the idea of TH and the failed logic of keeping said gear on and the "Im hr 4 th imma th" mindset that makes normally logical people play like mediocre retards half-a**ing their way to high levels of PlaceboHunter.

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More or less, yeah. That's the case. Except no, it's not difficult for me to comprehend people wanting the job to be more. I am, after all, a paladin. Like you thieves, I still play the job to my very best but I know that the enmity set and the ws set and the different TP sets I carry, depending on whether or not I think my enemy can kill me, are mostly useless. I know that if I showed up in merely my supertanking gear and 40 or 50 free spaces, noone would notice.

In many situations, if I showed up in any gear and just twilight-zombied, noone would notice.

Still, for what meager place PLD has, I am the best pld I can be. ^^

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That's not to say that's your playstyle, but its the playstle of many-a-thief. Regardless, back before I.lv gear, Hands/Feet being swapped meant that you were, for an example lets say you were using EMp+2 Hands and Relic+2 Feet. Here's the differences.

Treasure Hunter Fulltime TP:

AGI+15
CHR+7
Acc+9
Eva+20
Enmity+5
TH+3.

Useful Armor:

STR+8
DEX+15
CHR+7
Triple Attack+3%
Increases Triple Attack Damage (+3%)
Accuracy+12
Attack+16
Enmity+4

Loss from Fulltime TH Gear:

STR+8
DEX+15
Triple Attack+3%
inc. Trp. Dmg +3%
Acc+3
Attack+16

Gains:

AGI+15
Evasion+20
1 Enmity

I.E Massiv Differences... Even before I.lv Gear. After Item level gear? Well use Iuitl Hands and Iuitl Feet, which will take you like an hour or less worth of effort to obtain. We'll not add Augments (Which would likely be Double Attack+2% each). But here...

Net Gains from Iuitl Gear

STR+19
DEX+47
VIT+35
AGI+28 (over raiders)
MND+34
INT+10
CHR+38
Attack+10
Evasion+53 (Over raiders)
Acc-1 (Asn+2)
m.eva+86
Haste+8

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Okay, and if I was thief playing in that content, I'd definitely be doing that, but nobody is a thief playing in that content. There's no reason to bring a thief to that level of content. In most the places I farm, because I don't farm in adoulin, because there's just not real money drops, Maybe I'm not capped on the potency of stats (ddex, etc), but I'm pretty close--I'm probably attack-capped, and in that situation, all I'm losing is 4 DA since the stuff usually isn't hitting me harder than drain samba can take care of.

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Even if the haste doesn't apply because you cap it elsewhere, you're going to be losing significant amounts of DPS fulltiming TH Gear even if only during the TP phase.

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In the content thieves are doing... they don't lose that much dps. The only major hit to DPS is that stupid dagger.

I am all for buffing thieves, and buffing the desire to have them there. I'm all for getting rid of that stupid dagger, but until they do either, I'm happy with my thief optimized for where it's at.

Like my paladin, I respect that some thieves want to take it to the very limit but I have no logic reason to hate on a paladin who has accepted what paladin is, and I think it's not a bad thing that some people have accepted the "value" (I don't like that word, but couldn't think of a better one) of TP'ing in TH gear. It's basically kill speed vs the quality of TH. In trivial content, neither one greatly outshines the other. Sometimes TH7, or TH9, or whatever may just be the reason the 100 piece dropped. We simply can't know why something dropped, merely that it did, or it didn't.

To me, Its not about "Accepting what Thief is". For all intents and purpose I'm rarely invited to a party on Thief to "TH and gtfo", my goal is Treasure Hunter and Damage, and most thieves fail to understand the "Damage" Part which is the issue. I propose Thief's who fulltime TH Gear for any phase (TP or otherwise) have forgotten their role in a party all together as they are more than just TH whores, they have the potential for aiding in the fight in more than just the Placebo pill Job Trait. The fact that Thieves have forgotten how to damage and not simply accept "I'm a TH" is the core reason why the job is fallen to such a dismal state. There's not an event in existence right now that would be made or broke based on a Thief being in a DD party.

So, I hate Thieves who use "Treasure Hunter" as an excuse to be gimp... Let me try to explain it best i can. Paladin is a great defensive job, Magical and Physical. Imagine an alternate universe where PLDs all have Aegis in the form of a Job trait. 50% MDT, breaks cap... Now, imagine because of this they are invited a good deal for said Job trait to tank magical enemies, but still able to easily use Ochain to tank Physically... But over time people just adopt "Aegis" as their key role, and the ability for PLDs to tank Physically heavy enemies become harder because PLDs adopt the mindset "I'm only here for Aegis" and fail to gear the job properly for its other roles, in this case, taking physical damage.

Now, imagine you are a PLD who utilize Ochain and know you can tank Physically as well as magically, but due to the incompetence of your peers over the course of time, you are not wanted for it because no one believes you are capable to any degree due to the stigma the job now holds.

Ergo you are now considered useless for something you know you are capable of because your peers have ruined the jobs image. You cannot play your job because of the incompetence, laziness and excuses for mediocrity that other of your job have spewed for years to the point it is both the logical norm and accepted status quot. Now if you can honestly say you would not grow to hate or look in disgust at the type of PLDs who put your job into the sad state it is, You're lying.

This is the situation Thief is currently in. Due to the mindset of "I'm just here for TH", the job has a stigma of being just plain awful, when in the reality of it they can perform competently and contribute at the very least a solid amount of damage to current endgame fights as well as the benefit of TH, an that a good Thief can in fact out-perform the majority of Pick up DD's, and just because the WAR has an Ukon (Or in this age, a Ixtab) does not mean he's going to win the parse in his Twilight Helm/Body 3/5 Karieyh set.

Point for Point a True 2-handed DD > THF if performing well, but Thief is actually so far down the sh*t hole that people can't even imagine a GREAT thief outparsing a sh*t DD. Even when i had 99 Mandau back when it was good, it was rare I'd get into the BRD party despite me outparsing half the DD in it with me unbuffed.

So its not that i hate Thieves for "knowing their place", its that I hate the Thieves who used "Their place" as an excuse for their poor damage, mediocrity, and over-all discrediting the entire job as a whole. I know the Potential Thief has, and while it has room to grow as a DD or in many fields, Its not nearly as bad as the stigma the job holds. This is why i hate those types of thieves and their logic of "TH onry".

Well said Karbuncle.

I wish SE would buff these jobs so that they weren't in a position where people expected one task out of them. I'm not one of the mediocre thieves you talk about (and you even said you weren't saying that I necessarily was), but I certainly don't play it at your level (and never will), but we both have capped TH, I'm sure, good ws's sets, and probably have access to the same gear (besides relic, af+1, etc) and groups would expect exactly the same from our thieves.

A real shame.

(In a real group setting, where you desire to bring your thief, I wouldn't TP in TH gear lol^^). They need updated for new skirmish freebies, but I do have non TH TP macros.

It's not ALL doom and gloom for THF DD:

The ability to dual wield two delve daggers before shark dagger is a nice change.

1 hand stat buffs and Att cap raise helped close the gap.

But there are a couple of glaring reasons THF still can't compete (as a job):

• Positionality - THF is the only DD running the "I have to be in position to use my abilities" gambit. Monsters constantly change directions. Other players constantly move, fidgit, etc.
  
• Recast Timers - 60 seconds recast time on Sneak Attack and Trick Attack is far too long. This means our WS spam gains significantly less than proper DD's that do not rely on timed abilities for respectable WS.
  
• Generally weaker WS Options - Exenterator is pretty "meh" in the DD ratrace with its super cool AGI mod :rolleyes:. REM WS are dead till updates (but even these are still tied to SATA timers).

Even at a perfect hypothetical 100% land rate of SA/TA, and perfect riding of timers each time they are up, THF DD is still weaker than other DD's that don't have to work as hard. Add in the things from my list and THF starts falling behind even more. A certain portion of your DD potential is just at the mercy (no pun intended) of your group.

The things from this list also mean that THF gains significantly less than other DD's from stacking Haste buffs. All that lead time trying to get into position, the less than perfect land rate with SATA, the timer restrictions, the generally weaker WS options, etc.

It's never been that a THF CAN'T DD. It's that it's more work for less damage payout than a more accepted DD. It's also a pain in the ass for the group to try and cater to your positional needs (they just won't).

Realistically, why would anyone take a Pick up THF to DD when there are more than enough MNK DRK WAR SAM waiting on shouts.

I think it can be saved with a tweak or two to SA/TA. I'd be more than happy to wipe the floor with 95% of the playerbase while DDing on THF.

The main problem is the mindset of the playerbase, nobody is going to invite a THF to DD over a WAR, MNK, DRK, DRG or SAM unless they're a good friend or placebohunter is needed, it doesn't matter how good you are.

Look how many threads there are of thieves saying they've out parsed real DD`s on THF, the response is always the same, "if you out parsed a DRK on THF then that DRK sucked" it's never, wow you're a good THF that knows how to DD, it's always the other DD`s suck.

This mindset is what is keeping THF out of Adoulin events more than the job itself. A lot of thieves just play the job for TH because they don't see a reason to be the very best THF on the server because it still won't get you into events.