Glass is half full or half empty the adjustment hammer to JA and WS would even the playing field so MA proccers have nothing to cry about it's the SE way to fix a problem...
Un-gimping magic procs in dynamis
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11-02-2012, 02:17 AMHimuraKenshyn
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11-02-2012, 02:48 AMAldersydeThat's not the vibe I get from people pointing out dnc ja timer's being so short or automaton's attachment abilities counting as ws. It sounds more like: "..but, but, dnc jas and automaton abilities are on short timers too! Why shouldn't they suck as much as magic proc?" Pointing out what's unfair (to them) is the exact same as saying they want SE to look at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yinnyth
That's exactly what people have been doing the last few pages. I'd like better rates on magic procs too. but whining about ja timers being on short timers isn't going to change SE's minds about their reasoning concerning magic proc. All it's going to do is make them look closely at dnc jas and automaton abilities and possibly get them "adjusted." Then everyone will get to suck together. -
11-02-2012, 03:04 AMYinnythThe vibe you're getting is incorrect. No one here wants procs in Dynamis to be made harder in any way. And I'm sure you don't want people to only half-read your posts then invent a false point you're trying to raise which makes you look like a petulant child because that's the vibe they got from your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldersyde
I have PUP, I have DNC. If I know I'll need JA procs, I /DNC. If I know I'll need WS procs, I'll PUP or /PUP. If I know I'll need magic procs, I'm screwed. And that's not how it should work. I should have an option for all 3, and those options should be roughly equal in effectiveness. -
11-02-2012, 03:15 AMAldersydeOf course no one wants that, but there's a possibility that's what's going to happen. This is SE were talking about here.Or have you been playing a totally different game than I have this past decade or so? Actions have unintended consequences? Who knew?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yinnyth
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11-02-2012, 03:17 AMMotentenYou are correct. I had assumed a 1 second next-spell-cast delay, but testing indicated that that was quite wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yinnyth
First, basic testing agrees with Yinnyth. I was able to consistently get 12 threnodies per minute once I got the recast timing down (with only occasional errors). So next I tried to figure out why.
FRAPS analysis of casting time.
I don't have a perfect brd gear set; missing 6% in cast time, and don't have Minstrel's Ring. End up at 40% total.
Changed subjob to /rdm for the extra fast cast to see how it would affect things. That puts me at 55% fast cast.
After adjusting to the slightly different timing, I was able to get 14 spells cast per minute.
14 spells per minute is 4.28 seconds per spell. Can figure the 0.28 is human error, in that I can't cast the next spell at the perfect recast moment, and it's a 4 second recast on a 1 second spellcasting time (after fast cast is applied). That's a 3 second casting delay.
To test this effect, I retried using Minuets. Nominal cast time is 8 seconds.
With /rdm and fast cast gear, time between start of Min4 and Min5 is 7.233 seconds. Actual cast time should have been 3.6 seconds. Difference is 3.6 seconds; with allowance for human error, we still get the 3 second delay.
Tried again with /whm and no fast cast. Time between start of Min4 and Min5 is 11.367 seconds. Subtracting the nominal cast time leaves a 3.367 second window, for 3 seconds plus human error.
Overall conclusion: Minimum delay after the completion of one spell before you can cast another is 3 seconds. Using the fastest casting spells available, plus accounting for human error, lowest realistic time per spell cast is 4 seconds, allowing for 15 spells cast per minute. -
11-02-2012, 03:18 AMMotenten
Now, as this applies to the magic proc system (ie: 3 second delay between casts), that means up to perhaps 7 spells cast per mob (30 second kill time).
Since this is a universal casting delay, blu does not get a significant advantage due to its fast-casting spells. Rdm's high fast cast mainly just opens up more spell options (ie: spells with 3 second base cast times can be brought down to the 1 second region).
Considering the limit of how it compares with JA usage: Spells can be used far more frequently than any single JA, however JAs are not limited by the universal delay effect. JAs can be stacked sequentially with just 1 second delay between each one (aside from the last), so you could do something like Box Step + Violent Flourish + Provoke in the space of 4 seconds, whereas you could only cast a single spell in that time period. On the other hand, you can keep casting spells during the period you're waiting for JA recasts to come back up.
Virually all players in Dynamis are using dnc or /dnc. Almost all jobs have a ~3-5 minute JA to add on to the Step/Flourish available from dnc. Together, the maximum average rate of JA attempts would be one attempt per ~8.25 seconds. Spells have a maximum average rate of one attempt per 4 seconds.
A naive implementation might then put the raw proc rate for magic at 10% if the raw proc rate for JAs is 20%. However one must also recognize that on the JA side, the player is free to take a large number of actions in between the JA uses, whereas the magic user does not have that luxury. If you allow for the time for the magic user to actually perform their normal job (hasting, marches, curing, etc), the proc attempt rate drops quickly.
Every spell a magic user casts deducts from their ability to cast proc spells, whereas meleeing and weaponskilling does not detract from the JA user's ability to proc (and in fact aids in killing the mob, which is almost as important as the procs). Every 4 seconds you have to run to the next mob is another proc attempt lost, whereas it would take ~10 seconds to lose a proc attempt for the JA user. The JA user only has to pay attention to the recast time on the ability in question, whereas the magic user's next cast is dependant on an invisible delay factor, which makes them far more subject to human error.
In other words, everything involved in actually using their respective abilities to proc is far more favorable to the JA user than to the magic user.
Now, let's look into per-mob proc rates. While the raw proc rate is (for example) 20% for JAs, that does not mean that every 5th JA attempt will be a proc. Mobs must eventually be killed, regardless of whether they were proc'd or not, and we can analyze the probability that any given mob will be proc'd based on the number of proc attempts.
Let's assume we have a duo: one DD, one mage. Either the DD can attempt JA procs, or the mage can attept magic procs. We'll ignore the fact that a duo of DDs increases both the kill rate and the proc attempt rate, while a pair of mages (if you were to try to increase the proc attempt rate on the magic side) would be horribly ineffective at getting good kill speed (aside from maybe blu).
If you spend ~30 seconds per mob, the DD can get 4-5 JA procs per mob. With a 20% raw proc rate and 95% hit rate (since Steps and Flourishes can miss), that gives a per-mob proc rate of 57% to 66%.
The mage may get 6-7 spells off on the same mob, if allowing for normal buffs and light curing. In order to have the same 57%-66% range of per-mob proc rates, the base proc rate for magic must be:
Overall, roughly 14%. However, as mentioned, that's assuming perfect performance. To allow for human error and the general unfavorableness of using magic procs, I'd want to bump it up to 15%.Code:7 casts 6 casts
57%: 11.5% 13%
66%: 14% 16%
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11-02-2012, 03:30 AMYinnythSo a person points out magic is harder to proc than JA or WS, hoping to get magic proc rate buffed. SE nerfs JA and WS rate as a result. Obviously that person's fault, not SE's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldersyde
You're criticizing the wrong group of people. Do you also troll through the PUP forums saying it's their fault embrava and PD are getting nerfed? Because they've complained about their 2hr not being as good as other 2hrs? -
11-02-2012, 03:38 AMMotenten
With apologies to the community reps, I do hope you can provide a complete and proper translation of that to the devs, so they can fully understand the objection. Simply saying "The NA players think magic proc rates are too low" isn't at all useful to a programmer or developer. They'll have their own models of how they believe things work, but that doesn't necessarily match the player's view of the world. It could very well be that their estimation is based on the same mistake I made, calculating the actual rate at which you can cast spells by looking at the raw spell data vs actually using it.
As an aside: I don't have a definitive parse on magic proc rates. Generally rumored value is 5%; I intend to test that in the near future. However, given the above analysis, if it is indeed 5%, I hope you can see the massive gulf between the usefulness of magic procs vs other types (even weaponskill procs). -
11-02-2012, 04:07 AMByrthThis 5% proc rate was from back when I used to kill Mage-type monsters in cities. I looked for mage monster kills and counted the number of spells on each (pre-proc). Still, the sample size was lower than I would have liked to draw a large conclusion from it. I can't find the specific sample anymore (it's somewhere in the Neo Dynamis thread) but I want to say it was approximately 80 casts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Motenten
My Weapon Skill proc rate was based on Energy Drain usage. I only used Energy Drain if the monster was unprocced, so I could count the number of Energy Drains and the number of resulting procs. Again, though, maybe only 40-50 WSs.
Also, I replied to your post on BG. -
11-02-2012, 04:25 AMSarickQuote:
Originally Posted by Dazusu
Contact an ingame GM and ask them to email a user survey about support. The reps are here to provide limited support while the actual movers and shakers are in Japan. Even if the reps report the discust they are only one voice and part of the red tape. It's their job to report the complaint but they ultimately don't make the choices. They're just messengers of choices made by higher ups.
If the support team is being filtered out then perhaps they too have red tape. Get past that red tape an contact the sources of the issues because, apparently the support teams hands are tied in most of the customer request. -
11-02-2012, 04:45 AMtyrantsynSo the player base says imbalance, the Dev's claims it is balance. And zones will continue to be dominated by thieves and Beastmaster's only spamming JA proc's because they are feasible and allow the best results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Okipuit
Honestly, whatever. If the Dev's simply can't look at the zone's and see what we're trying to tell them day after day. And insist that their percentages are right on the money than fine. The idea here is to free up the zone's during peak JA proc's. And allow the player base more options during different proc time's so that were not tripping over one another to claim mobs. If they rather keep things this way, fine.
Just consider me a dissatisfied customer when it comes to Dynamis and done leaving feedback on the subject. -
11-02-2012, 04:47 AMMotentenWhat results did you have for your weaponskill test? (couldn't find a post on that either) My parses on pup have it at ~19%, but those include both real weaponskills and puppet JAs that are counted as weaponskills. Since the rep explicitly stated that weaponskills have higher proc rates than JAs, and JAs are 20%, then that suggests that puppet JAs may have a lower proc rate to balance things out, if your test supported the idea of >20% weaponskill proc rates. On the other hand, random anecdotal posts on weaponskill procs after the change to AOE weaponskills implied they were also somewhere around 20%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
If they are in fact the same 20%, then the rep was given factually incorrect information. -
11-02-2012, 11:07 AMTrumpy
didnt read alot of the thread but My LS did some dynamis runs for a while with 2-3 parties worth of people. i would usually be blm and there would be times when they would pull a ton of mobs and me and other mages would sleep them. They would proc JA and WS mobs sometimes splitting up or soloing their own meanwhile i would keep the others slept and try to proc the magic ones. 10% of the time i actually proced magic. the rest never would. now my success isnt the point of this post, but 95% of the time I would be holding and sleepin these mages and spamming enfeebles sometimes nukes for literally 15 minutes with not a single proc. I understand the balance of the rates but i feel magic was set entirely too low. call it bad luck but this was pretty much how it always happened. I think procing WS and JA within a minute despite the recasts versus spamming magic non stop for 15 minutes and jsut finally giving up is NOT balanced.
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11-02-2012, 01:35 PMLuvbunny
So basically it's the usual tactics, disregard problems, ignore requests from player base. Maybe if we are ignored long enough, we will stop voicing our opinion. Well you all know what to do, if you are ignored for months or years, you can just stop playing lol.
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11-02-2012, 02:31 PMHashmalumThey're adult human beings--not children, the insane, or mindless automatons. They are the ones responsible for their own actions--not us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldersyde
I agree 1000% on this, but I'm afraid that this avenue of approach will get us nowhere. To my knowledge, the community reps have NEVER told us exactly what they told the devs, or what their criteria for relaying feedback is. I'm afraid that if we want the devs to see our detailed reasoning that the only workable approach is to find a friendly bilingual poster and get them to translate and post our detailed concerns on the JP forums, which the devs read directly (this also provides us with an opportunity to get lobbying support from the JP community). Unfortunately my limited Japanese just isn't up to the task, otherwise I would be translating your post even now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Motenten
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11-02-2012, 05:42 PMLuvbunny
You can try to google translate the japanese forum. Most of it are somewhat confusing translation but the gist should be all there. Seems that the japanese players have similar opinions when it come to the recent "adjustment", and as we all read, the developers still giving us the same respond, do not care, proceed as planned, player base matter not lol.
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11-02-2012, 05:57 PMSapphires
They should up the proc rate in general for single target spells and maybe even increase the proc chances depending on mp cost/cast time/tier of the magic spell being cast (Aero III has a better chance to proc than Dia for example).
As it stands right now 2 mages can spam dia on a target and be unable to proc it before a single DD kills it from just straight meleeing.
Its pretty sad when 2 carbuncles DD a magic proc mob and 2 smns spam dia nonstop and still cant proc it before it dies. Thats balance!
Anyways im done with dynamis pretty much aside from af2+2 xp trials, tired of being stuck with overcrowded JA camps and it supporting very little job diversity. -
11-02-2012, 09:04 PMByrthActually, my proc rate came out at 15%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Motenten
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11-02-2012, 11:54 PMMotentenHmm. Interesting. And that was with Energy Drain? I wonder if weaponskill proc rate chance scales with damage? Energy Drain would do 0 damage, so 15% would be the minimum rate if that were the case. I do find that using Smite or Exenterator after time changes from JA to WS has a decently high rate of proc'ing a mob. Anecdotally, I would certainly consider it better than 15%. And of course my pup parses have been consistently around 19%, pushing 20% if you factor out puppet actions after a mob has been staggered. (example sample size: 71/370)Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
And of course that also leads me back to wondering if spell damage (for the spells that do damage) matters as well. If that were the case, spamming Dia would obviously give you the lowest possible proc rate, since it does around 0 to 5 damage. I'll try to control for that when I do the test. -
11-03-2012, 12:16 AMByrth
I'd be inclined to credit low sample size more than the weapon skill choice. As I said, there were only like 40 of them or something. I generally considered proccing with Energy Drain to be a waste of time and TP so I didn't do it often. My Aeolian Edge results were almost very difficult to analyze in any automated way because I'd proc monsters and then they'd still get hit with future AEs, so I had to limit my analysis to Energy Drain.
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11-03-2012, 12:23 AMMotenten
Ah, yeah, only 40 would be a weak sampling; that's a 15% margin of error. Having slightly bad luck (6 procs instead of 8) would put it at 15% instead of 20%.
Ok, I think I know how I'll setup the test, then. Won't worry so much about the damage. -
11-03-2012, 02:22 AMPsxpert2011/thumbsdownQuote:
Originally Posted by FrankReynolds
the feature you wanted!
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To Proc or not to Proc, that is the question.
That's the system Abbysea was set up for.
...if ungimping magic procs were the term, then you mages have a bigger ego than should be. Believe there's a balance between Weapon skilling and casting magic procing because the last thing the whole community needs is blm burning every single NM in FFxi.
Just be lucky the DEV team didn't requier you guys to proc using Skill Chains... and incase your new to the game(new generation) Skill Chaining is combining two (2) Weapon SKills to create one(1) elemental Skill Chain effect, causing damage. Just because content is aging doesn't mean properties get eliminated. THis would cause anarchy and imbalance.
Besides, procing should be cake by now, no more /crying -
11-03-2012, 05:03 AMMetakingyou realize we are are talking about dynamis not abysea? also the balance between weponskills and magic has long seance been lost magic bursted or not could really hurt all but a handfull of mobs generaly the top 3% end (kirin genbu faffy) weponskills where general useless over all for dmg (they could miss and unless closing a sc did crap dmg, there is a reason we use to spam spirits within), now a days you could be the pimpest of the pimp dog blms and you wont even be considered as a source of dmg anymore, any how back to the topic at hand, yes!Quote:
Originally Posted by Psxpert2011
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11-03-2012, 06:46 AMraps1355Clearly you don't play this game nor have you tried the content within it as a player aiming to bring in as much currency as possible. You have probably looked a database cooldown list for JA and calculated an average on the spot without even looking at what players actually do. When players all use one method and only that there is clearly balance issues. Just fix it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Okipuit
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11-04-2012, 03:23 AMLuvbunny
They could easily assign certain magic only that will proc, based on the day elements if they want, like the abyssea counterpart, but limit to tier 3-4 magic only and no AM or ga spells. This way people cannot spam dia over and over. Same can be limited to blue spells as well. Magic is finite, it will run out then you have to rest mp or convert. JA is pretty much can be used over and over when the timer is up. Still, agree with most of the posters here, most people rather solo this neo dynamis or duo. They need to revamp the proc system so ALL areas will be accessible for farming and not just 3.
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11-04-2012, 05:51 AMMetaking
tier 3 and 4 magic not only is easily interruptable because of casting time, but is prohibitively expensive mana wize..... remember your trying to proc and kill mobs in less than a min
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11-05-2012, 05:06 AMMotenten
Magic proc rate test: Enfeebling magic (not including Dia) has an 8% proc rate. There's a possibility that nuke proc rates are higher.
Cast rate: I averaged, over 1 hr 45 minutes, 5.33 proc casts per minute. With experience I could probably get that up to 6 or 7, but I doubt it would go much higher. Including buffs and cures and stuff, total casting rate was 8 spells per minute out of a theoretical maximum of 15 spells per minute; I don't expect to be able to improve that to any higher than about 10 spells per minute for a long-term average.
* Should also note that I was rdm/whm (so no benefit or penalty for Light/Dark Arts from /sch on any of the spells), and only used Composure for recasting buffs, cancelling it before trying to cast any enfeebles.
Overall average per-mob proc rate: 36%
Test details. -
11-05-2012, 11:06 AMFrankReynoldsI was talking about dynamis. This thread has nothing to do with abyssea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psxpert2011
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11-05-2012, 11:36 AMDemon6324236Yeah, I heard a whoosh sound when I read it, because the point of this thread went right over his head.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankReynolds
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11-05-2012, 12:31 PMCaketime
...I like cake. >.>
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11-06-2012, 02:09 AMPhogg
As a thf, I can get off only 3 ZERO damage Energy drain weapon skill proc attempts before an EP mob dies. I can get roughly twice as many attempts off on a DC mob before it dies, assuming I do not die first. In about half the cases, these mobs will die before they are proc'd.
That is why JA procs are still vastly superior. I can't simply turn around and keep proc'ing with WSs like I can JA's, meaning unless I am not paying attention, I will proc 100% of mobs I engage using JA's, compared to roughly 50% of mobs when I use WSs. Not sure how that's even remotely close to "balanced".
In practice, 3/4's of the dynamis mobs don't even need to exist if they are not currently on JA proc time. Players are excellent at exploiting things, so if they could exploit Magic or WS procs as effectively as JA's, they would do it. Yet, 95% of people work on JA mobs any time I am in dynamis. SE is doing this very wrong, other proc options should be made as viable as JAs. -
11-06-2012, 05:58 AMAeonkDefinately agree. JA procs are nice but frankly I'm sure I'm not the only one tired of fighting with BSTs for mobs during the desired window. And thanks to the recent blinker nerf it's only gotten worse. Increasing proc options for magic and WS makes it so that just about anyone can farm dynamis if they want to, as opposed to BST/BLU/THF/DNC only. Would make it that much more lucrative for everyone, both sellers and relic makersQuote:
Originally Posted by Phogg
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11-12-2012, 01:42 AMPsxpert2011Yes, I admit I was thinking abysea and not dynamis and I've been in dynamis many, many times.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankReynolds
I've witness the WS and magic procing as it was ment to control the pwning of players coming from abysea (thinking they can own dynamis). Yes, I admit my initial post was total focus on abysea and i'm sorry but I stand firm with it.
Still: mages, ego, balance..it was initially bold out for a reason. I'll stand up to it- same argument applies.
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Quote:
Yeah, I heard a whoosh sound when I read it, because the point of this thread went right over his head.
Believe me, I get it: In refrence to the "Whooosh sound" in someones head... or probably due to lack of substance & activity. -
11-12-2012, 05:00 AMDemon6324236
In either case as people pointed out the proc rate is low even if your spamming the fastest spells, which for a job to main or sub those jobs would likely lower your kill speed. However the fastest JA proc main or sub is DNC, something which helps you fight and proc both, as well as it procs faster than magic, making it better in every way, this is why it needs changed.
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11-14-2012, 01:13 AMKincard
Re: WS procs being too slow. In theory, since you're proccing using an ability you'd use over the course of a battle anyway, you'd end up coming pretty close to coins yield because you're killing really fast to make up for the fact that you only proc a fraction of the monsters you fight. Get a couple more chances at +2 items as well since those don't seem to be affected by procs.
It works in theory only if there's an infinite number of monsters and your WS numbers are large enough to be outdoing the time you'd spend JA-ing and holding monsters at 5% HP. WS proc rate is pretty high honestly. Maybe I'll try seeing what happens if I try to bulldose through a camp maximizing my damage and only incidentally getting procs. I doubt it'll come near the bill yield of JAs, but considering it takes a lot less finesse to do it could work if I'm in a caveman mood. -
11-14-2012, 04:12 AMPhoggI have tried, its not even remotely close. Even in a competitive run, JA's will win out by a tremendous amount compared to killing WS mobs with no competition. Like I said, I can attempt 3 zero dmg WS procs as THF before an EP mob dies from my normal melee attacks just trying to get TP for energy drain. So, just to attempt 3 procs per mob I already need to vastly slow down my kill speed, and that third ws is not always there. If I were actually using a normal WS to proc, they would die after 1 WS + melee dmg. I can technically double the attempts on DC's but many times I need to use TP to cure myself because the DCs hit considerably harder, and killing them takes much longer, which again reduces your net result compared to killing EPs during JA time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kincard
As BST/dnc you can attempt 3 procs in the first 5 seconds of a battle, and continue attempts every 8 seconds or so after that, with minimal impact on your DD output. If you actually went full bulldoze mode during WS time, as you suggest, you would kill all the mobs really fast, that's for sure, and you would also proc maybe 15% of them. The ones you don't, even on thf will net you maybe 1 coin for every 5 kills. In that same amount of time you would proc and kill at least 3 mobs using JA's, and even at a conservative average of 2 coins per proc'd mob, that's 6 for JA, 1 coin for WS. One proc attempt per mob will not get it done, not even close, not in the same state, not in the same country as JA's. The system requires proc's to net a reasonable amount of coins for your effort.
There are maybe 1/5~6 mobs I need to turn for to make sure I JA proc at low HP, and the reason people do so is because getting that !! really is critical, its the difference between getting nothing, and getting up to 4 coins. So, even if I ignored those and just pushed through and did not slow my kill rate, I would still proc roughly 3~4/5 mobs with JAs. Considering on BST/dnc you can proc a mob fairly swiftly, WS >> snarl and leave to proc another mob without slowing your kill rate at all, procing 1/5 mobs with WS (at best) will net a dramatically worse result. Give it a go, it will take you all of 30 minutes in dyna to give up on it entirely and go back to using JAs. If you do an entire two hour run on only WS mobs, you will look back and wish you never wasted the time figuring out it would take 4-5 runs of dynamis in WS time to get as many coins as one run in JA time. -
11-15-2012, 05:29 AMFrankReynoldsNone of that made sense in the context of this topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psxpert2011
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11-15-2012, 07:22 PMhikothf is not a good job to WS proc dyna doesn't mean no job can do better ws procingQuote:
Originally Posted by Phogg
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11-16-2012, 07:38 AMFrankReynoldsWHat job would you say is better? And how does that change anything in his post?Quote:
Originally Posted by hiko
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11-16-2012, 10:11 PMKristalPUP. The same mechanism that is a bane in Abyssea is a boon in Dynamis.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankReynolds
It's mostly complaining about certain job/subjob combinations that already have a distinct advantage are not good at everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankReynolds
Noone is good on magic procs, not even RDM, although the math shows that you actually need slightly less then twice the proc attempts to get a proc compared to WS and JA.