Empyrean weapon needed adjustments

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

I can confirm first hand ODD cant proc on Jumps but Neither can Gungirs hidden effect. I can also confirm first hand the empyrean ODD will proc on any hit of a double attack or triple attack.

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MY ls leader had crazy jump damage, how do you explain the hidden not working on jump?

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The OP even says Relics are over powered?!?!

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I never said relics were overpowered.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

MY ls leader had crazy jump damage, how do you explain the hidden not working on jump?

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Triple attack and crit proc on all 3. Jumps can crit.

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Originally Posted by Alderin

Attainability (From easiest to hardest)
Empyrean > Mythic > Relic.

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Empyrean > Relic > Mythic*

There is a ton of other work involved in finishing a mythic even if you buy all the alexandrites. Mythics however were supposed to be about utility and not raw damage. SE failed to realize when designing them that for DDs Raw Damage trumps utility every time. Then on top of that they didn't even make the utility that great on most of the weapons.

Boost Relic damage. MEGA-BOOST Mythic utility and every reasonable person will be happy.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Triple attack and crit proc on all 3. Jumps can crit.

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Wasn't talking in abysssea era, i know that can happen

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Boost Relic damage. MEGA-BOOST Mythic utility and every reasonable person will be happy.

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YES! ^

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Originally Posted by Rambus

MY ls leader had crazy jump damage, how do you explain the hidden not working on jump?

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A triple crit spirit or soul jump will do 2000-2500 damage in abyssea.

Edit: Be more specific. How much damage are you talking about and on what mobs.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

Wasn't talking in abysssea era, i know that can happen



YES! ^

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Yes, but outside of abyssea, you have a what? 24% crit rate and 1% triple attack (homam body) vs inside abyssea 15%+ triple attack rate w/ 54-74% crit rate (depending on atmas). As well as being much closer to, if not, capped fstr which you certainly weren't getting before, etc etc.

75 great birds , 1.2k ish if i remember right.

no tripple attack

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Empyrean > Relic > Mythic*

There is a ton of other work involved in finishing a mythic even if you buy all the alexandrites. Mythics however were supposed to be about utility and not raw damage. SE failed to realize when designing them that for DDs Raw Damage trumps utility every time. Then on top of that they didn't even make the utility that great on most of the weapons.

Boost Relic damage. MEGA-BOOST Mythic utility and every reasonable person will be happy.

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Ah right, shows how much I know about Mythic weapons then. Will edit with the correction.

All in all, as a non-relic owner, you relic owners have a +1 on my vote. You guys have been majorly gipped since Empyreans were released.

could be wrong i guess so the only thing you can get this ODD or hidden effect is on barrage?

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Originally Posted by Alderin

Ah right, shows how much I know about Mythic weapons then. Will edit with the correction.

All in all, as a non-relic owner, you relic owners have a +1 on my vote. You guys have been majorly gipped since Empyreans were released.

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Riiiiight because going from 1st to 2nd place (third minimum) and still utterly owning the crap out of everything else in the game is "majorly gipped"

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

WRONG.

Mythics are way more difficult to get than relics.

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Dude, chill. I stand corrected.

Man your signature is hypnotising >_> couldnt think of a decent response to have a whinge to you because of it.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

Is this a joke thread?

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This forum continues to amaze me, I'm agreeing with Rambus again. Nobody agreeing with the OP has any idea how these weapons stack up to relics or mythics. Seriously, with all due respect, anyone thinking Empyreans need a boost should actually look into how much they blow the other weapons away.

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Originally Posted by Alderin

Dude, chill. I stand corrected.

Man your signature is hypnotising >_> couldnt think of a decent response to have a whinge to you because of it.

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It's probably the panty shot

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Originally Posted by Rambus

75 great birds , 1.2k ish if i remember right.

no tripple attack

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I've done 1.5k with V fork @ 75 so this was probably just a double crit. We would have seen SSs of 2.2k~ jumps with Gungnir @ 75 if the hidden effect could proc on jumps and afaik none of those exist.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

This forum continues to amaze me, I'm agreeing with Rambus again. Nobody agreeing with the OP has any idea how these weapons stack up to relics or mythics. Seriously, with all due respect, anyone thinking Empyreans need a boost should actually look into how much they blow the other weapons away.

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I assure you, I know exactly how all 3 work.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Riiiiight because going from 1st to 2nd place (third minimum) and still utterly owning the crap out of everything else in the game is "majorly gipped"

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Could say the same for the relic owners. Especially when all these overnight weapons are overpowered compared to the weapons that people took years to create?

I don't understand your logic. You want to BOOST something that is already the best in the game, and easiest to get? I understand where SE is going with things but don't you think Relic owners should get more then a pat on the back for spending the crazy amount of time / gil that is required?

I am not saying to reduce Empyreans - I am saying to BOOST Relics and Mythics compared to Empyreans. Order of power should still be Relic > Mythic > Empyrean.

I believe your suggestion is flawed. Empyreans do not need boosting at all.

The end.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Riiiiight because going from 1st to 2nd place (third minimum) and still utterly owning the crap out of everything else in the game is "majorly gipped"

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From your posts I can tell you don't have a relic. You can't appreciate the effort it takes to get one. Having a weapon you can duo/trio in a week outclass your months or even years of work is MAJORLY messed up.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

I've done 1.5k with V fork @ 75 so this was probably just a double crit. We would have seen SSs of 2.2k~ jumps with Gungnir @ 75 if the hidden effect could proc on jumps and afaik none of those exist.

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1.5k ? dang maybe i was not using food or something I never got that high even on a tripple attack, lest it seemed that way based on tp back.

I do macro homan body in my jumps, though I did not adjust my drg in the 90 era yet.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

I never said relics were overpowered.

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Let me rephrase then. You make it sound like the Additional effects somehow out classes Emp weapons that don't need an additional effect to out damage a relic weapon. It was actually the guy below you that made it sound like Relics were overpowered with his statement about Emp weapons living in Relics shadows (which isn't even remotely true).

Having seen the big difference between Relic GK and Emp GK I can tell you there is very very little SE could add to an Emp weapon without nerfing something else. Right now Emp weapons are unbalanced and what you're asking only makes the weapons stupidly unbalanced. Don't mean to jump your case....but like a lot of relic owners I'm getting tired of people saying Relics are "fine" the way they are right now.

You may not understand my logic, but I certainly do not understand yours. You keep wanting to go in order of difficulty and yet you keep putting relics ahead of mythics, when mythics are much more difficult to obtain.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

It's probably the panty shot

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Nah it's simply how ridiculously stupid it is.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

Let me rephrase then. You make it sound like the Additional effects somehow out classes Emp weapons that don't need an additional effect to out damage a relic weapon. It was actually the guy below you that made it sound like Relics were overpowered with his statement about Emp weapons living in Relics shadows (which isn't even remotely true).

Haven't seen the big difference between Relic GK and Emp GK I can tell you there is very very little SE could add to an Emp weapon without nerfing something else. Right now Emp weapons are unbalanced and what you're asking only makes the weapons stupidly unbalanced. Don't mean to jump your case....but like a lot of relic owners I'm getting tired of people saying Relics are "fine" the way they are right now.

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I never said I thought or even implied that relics/mythics outclassed emps because of their additional effects. I simply said that relics/mythics have a rather large amount of uniqueness to them where as empies are pretty bland and aside form the ws, all the same.

All I want is some uniqueness to be added to the weapons.

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Originally Posted by Alderin

Nah it's simply how ridiculously stupid it is.

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Oh man, someone doesn't like my sig. I must take it down right away!

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

You may not understand my logic, but I certainly do not understand yours. You keep wanting to go in order of difficulty and yet you keep putting relics ahead of mythics, when mythics are much more difficult to obtain.

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Only 1 person suggested relics > mythics > emps that I saw. Mythics have always been about utility but SE failed to give them enough utility for the amount of work they require. All 3 of them should be tied for best weapon for different reasons.

As it stand now it's unarguably:

Emp > Relic > Mythic

in all but maybe 2 cases.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

A level 90 empyreal is only attainable to a small amount of harcore players just like relic and mythics, so no.

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um... yes and no... I did as anyone can do .... 85-90 with shout groups ... 6 man dragua for my 90 verethagna... this is not the case with apademak.... but the "jormy" would be the same as dragua easy fights just takes a little longer... Chloris was way more of a pain to farm but easy kill ... and lol @ camping f'n Amun against 3 other ls's every day ... which i also did with alot of shout groups so i didnt have to make my ls do the weapon for me ;p... while i am a veteran player... my group was surely not

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

You may not understand my logic, but I certainly do not understand yours. You keep wanting to go in order of difficulty and yet you keep putting relics ahead of mythics, when mythics are much more difficult to obtain.

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SE did not program their intent correctly, they wanted mythics to be quest based, 30 000 money and gil spent for ein is not quest based.

all they did was make it 50 000 to 30 000, when they did that i did submit suggestions it still was not enough change.

relics where bad ( some of them anyway) since day 1, all mythics but WHM club, SMN staff, COR gun was bad since day 1, now with emp gun cor mythic is bad

all the rest of the weapons are really got to be subpar when magin trials first came out, and that has not changed.

so it takes these OP emps for people to really speak out on them

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Only 1 person suggested relics > mythics > emps that I saw. Mythics have always been about utility but SE failed to give them enough utility for the amount of work they require. All 3 of them should be tied for best weapon for different reasons.

As it stand now it's unarguably:

Emp > Relic > Mythic

in all but maybe 2 cases.

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The person I was talking to with what you quoted was the person who said relics were the hardest to get.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

You may not understand my logic, but I certainly do not understand yours. You keep wanting to go in order of difficulty and yet you keep putting relics ahead of mythics, when mythics are much more difficult to obtain.

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My logic is simple.

Empyrean weapons do not need to be boosted.

Relics AND Mythics do. Forget about attainability order if that's messing with your small brain.

Empyreans = New, easy to get, & currently the strongest weapons in the game.
Mythic & Relic = Old (which means people have had them long before Abyssea and have missed out on any decent updates), take a long arse time to obtain, and are currently weak compared to the new kid on the block.

Empyrean = Fine where it is
Relic & Mythic = Need a boost.

Did I simplify it for you at all?

/ragequit

Yes, pump up Empyrean weapons! They're awesome, relic weapons are weak. Sell all your ancient currency away. >.>"

Each weapon is unique on the fact they have a variety of WS TP Mod differences and overall strikes. While some are only 1hit, some are up to 4 hit. All relic are 1 hit regardless of animation and have no WS TP mod scaling. Currently there isn't much that could be added/changed to this without having to give up something else in exchange is the primary problem.

Additionally, something you said later in the topic, it isn't up to SE to come up with all the ideas to change something. If you want something to be added to the weapon you need to give constructive feedback, not just demand a change otherwise the same mentality comes to play that you are seeing from some of us. The weapons are powerful in the state they currently have...to ask for more is to make them even more powerful without any alternative to offset the addition of the add effects.

What I would like is club to be more useful for parties. In abyssea whm is, naturally, doing its job in the backline so what use does it have of club and how could it be actually useful? I am thinking something to maybe get tp going since whm, for sure, does not get tp naturally in party.
Would it be useful to have a tp gain feature? The reason being, of course, that for procs whm wouldnt be out there meleeing, overly long, to get tp instead of doing their regular job.
If instead of tp gain what else would be useful?
What I see is that while meleeing whm regular jobs are neglected. Perhaps something to help with that?
Honestly I am fishing for ideas and any useful ones would be appreciated.

I point to this if you want to know my views on mythics and what needs changing:

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Originally Posted by Rambus

yeah 14-16k would hurt since its your 4th dang /confort.

I would love the order to be relic>mythic emp. but a lot of fixing needs to achive that

casting damage needs a relic ( mages are not melee lol claustrum)




relics are easer to fix then mythics in my opion, relics just need the WS stronger ( at 75 most of the ws was weak anyway)

problems of mythics:
mythics need a level 3 skillchain protperty

mythics like brd dagger, rdm sword, BLM staff needs more use then being macros.

PLD sword needs to pad PLD's damage a bit

SCH staff needs to be upgraded from useless

RNG mythic needs to be upgraded from useless ( hint trueflight is not a good ws)

DRK needs relic and mythic to be upreagred form useless. ( effect of ws and ws damage is bad for both)

COR gun: WS needs fixing

MNK mythic ( dont know pad ws to out do emp i guess/ better after effect)

THF ( affter effect/ WS issue)

SAM: different enchancement, maybe hasso, seigan, change affer effects, better ws

NIN: augement Yonin/Innin, better ws, better after effect

DRG: ( this looks decent actally, maybe better after effect, increase drakesbane damage when used by ryunohige)

BLU, PUP, DNC pretty much the same, better ws and after effect.

some other ways of changing relics/ mythics, allow a quest to gain acess to emp ws and let emp ws trigger the aftermaths

some mythic ws are bad I don't know if they are worth changing but giving them acess to the emp ws.
If SE wants mythics to be stuck on thier mythic ws , the mythic ws under mythic weapon needs to be a lot better, and granted a level 3 property.

some mythics have good ws like drakesbane so might be easier to fix.

like to see mythics fixed so its more of every 20 emps i see, i see 5 relics and 1 mythic

and that mythic tends to be SMN staff or WHM club.

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Originally Posted by Alderin

My logic is simple.

Empyrean weapons do not need to be boosted.

Relics AND Mythics do. Forget about attainability order if that's messing with your small brain.

Empyreans = New, easy to get, & currently the strongest weapons in the game.
Mythic & Relic = Old (which means people have had them long before Abyssea and have missed out on any decent updates), take a long arse time to obtain, and are currently weak compared to the new kid on the block.

Empyrean = Fine where it is
Relic & Mythic = Need a boost.

Did I simplify it for you at all?

/ragequit

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There's no need to get mad

Relics are just that, old. Make empyrean better and make the relic/mythic easier to obtain.

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Originally Posted by Vivik

Relics are just that, old. Make empyrean better and make the relic/mythic easier to obtain.

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You're right... screw everyone who devoted 100x the effort to their weapons because they did it first when it was harder to obtain..... Worst. suggestion. ever.

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Originally Posted by Vivik

Relics are just that, old. Make empyrean better and make the relic/mythic easier to obtain.

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Yeah, you're the troll. No need to make them better when currently they are the "best" in the DD department. Like I said earlier, you can't have something new without sacrificing something else. You want more for your weapon...then I expect your weapons damage potential to get nerfed to offset the addition.

Just because something is old doesn't mean it should be obsolete, hence the reason SE is trying to keep relic/mythic in the race.

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Originally Posted by Vivik

Relics are just that, old. Make empyrean better and make the relic/mythic easier to obtain.

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I am sure the many people that put their blood, sweat and tears into their relics would agree with you.

Instead of spending a week to get the best weapon in the game, let's spend months / years on getting a mediocre weapon that does half the WS damage with average aftermath effects.

You think the many owners of relics would agree with that?

I will mention once more - I am not a relic / mythic owner, however I believe they should get more then a pat on the back for their work.

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Originally Posted by Vivik

Relics are just that, old. Make empyrean better and make the relic/mythic easier to obtain.

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they are making relic easier to obtain (free dyna entry every day)

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Are you basing this on DNC? I thought we were talking about THF. DNC isn't a strictly DD job and shouldn't be doing anywhere near the damage a true DD is doing. If you are on THF your rudras are going to be on par with or better than Ukko's outside of abyssea. You have to expect discrepancies between different classes of jobs. Atmas have made us forget that we aren't all true DD classes.

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It depends how often you assume they can SA/TA Rudra's, but DNC out-DDs THF in many situations thanks to Haste Samba and our choice of 30-48% Dual Wield. If the THF can't reliably SA/TA Rudra's, then they should be using Dancing Edge outside Abyssea, same as Dancer.

Whether by accident or design, Dancer is a pretty formidable DD. It's probably not top tier, but it's much stronger than I expected when I was leveling it. Since then it has been nothing but Buff Buff Buff for the job's DD capabilities.