Increase the number of meritable WS

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Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

Customization. Which was SE's modus operandi when the merit system was introduced. Although some merit categories are so unbalanced that everyone picks the same merits, the intent was to allow characters to customize themselves beyond the copy-pasta gear that everyone wears at max level.

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Customization: "To make or alter to individual or personal specifications."
Hmmm. My individual or personal specifications are not able to be met by the merit system as is where weapon skills are concerned.

Let us cap each meritable WS, with the bucketload of merit points we get doing VW, why let them go to waste?

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Customization: "To make or alter to individual or personal specifications."
Hmmm. My individual or personal specifications are not able to be met by the merit system as is where weapon skills are concerned.

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That seems to be solely due to the fact that your personal specifications appear to be "I want to have everything and everything, and no less." Having everything means zero customization, because there are no specifications to make or alter.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

... and the benefit of being forced to choose not to get some of them that you really want is?

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I'm not being forced to choose not to get some of the ones I really want, because i have all the ones I really want. All of the rest would just be fluff for me. As i've already posted numerous times in this thread (though people still seem to want to pick on me in spite of it), the limit might be too low for the average person to pick out the ones they really want, and it should be increased. however, there should still be a limit. Otherwise, it ceases to be a facet of customization, as th ere is no tailoring to personal tastes involved since you could just get everything.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

That seems to be solely due to the fact that your personal specifications appear to be "I want to have everything and everything, and no less." Having everything means zero customization, because there are no specifications to make or alter.

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I don't want all the WS. I can't even use them all. I would like to be able to get at one for every job I have to 99 though. I have 6 jobs leveled to 99 and at least one weapon type leveled to 357+ for each. I want to go out and collect 100 merit points for each job. I don't want to leech those merit points either. What's so wrong with what I want?

Three is entirely too limiting, especially as some of these are much better then their Emp counterparts. I can easily see five or six being a good amount, allows people more versatility.

Because we have one and only one real category in the merit system that choice really matters doesn't make you a special snow flake Alhanelem, in a game where you can level EVERY job and the only true limit to your capabilities is how many situations you gear for and how good those sets are and your ability to use them at the right time/place, your arguement carries no weight, if they want to go ahead and revamp the entire merit system into ability trees, ones with actual and viable choices in all paths added then we have true character customization and uniqueness.

Oh i got a good idea lets limit the max number of spells any job can learn so you have to pick and choose what kind of BLM or SCH you want to be sorry limit of two TV spells.

I think you just enjoy arguing for arguments sake which is probably not a bad thing inspires people to add their ideas into a topic i suppose. To clarify my previous paragraph was not serious, that would be a terrible idea.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I don't want anymore weapon skills. Therefore other people shouldn't have more either.

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Yes, obviously everyone would get them even if they didnt want / need them, just because they can....

By your logic, every billionaire d-bag would own every model of automobile, right down to the ford festiva. Not because they want or need one, but because they can. I have yet to see footage of George Clooney's famous Hyundai collection.

People would still only have the weapon skills they want. Even if they could have them all, only people who want them all would get them all. Ever notice how few maat's caps you see? .... "But everyone can get all the jobs to 99... where's the customization? oh noes!"

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I don't want all the WS. I can't even use them all. I would like to be able to get at one for every job I have to 99 though.

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"I want to have everything and everything, and no less."

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sorry, I don't see much difference here. you are essentially saying there should be no limit, so you can have everything- only that it should be "unlocked" over time. No, it should not be that way, because then there is no decision to be made, no customization, and no distrinction between characters as far as who is more into what jobs. The time it takes to merit a WS is trivial, there's no reason not to unlock them all if there is no limit.

I fully support a limit increase. I do not and will not support a limit removal. I've already endorsed the other thread proposing a specific limit increase, over this one just saying "GIMME."

but a billionaire db can own every model car ever made, if they want/can afford it...

they'll probably up the cap when content comes to another complete halt, to give us an artificial 'update'.

Alhanelem your entire argument against raising the cap involves straw manning stop it.

As many of the above posters mentioned simply letting players cap out all the WSes won't change much. What does it matter to anyone else if someone decides to level a few more WSes or all of them? Key answer is nothing.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

sorry, I don't see much difference here. you are essentially saying there should be no limit, so you can have everything- only that it should be "unlocked" over time. No, it should not be that way, because then there is no decision to be made, no customization, and no distrinction between characters as far as who is more into what jobs. The time it takes to merit a WS is trivial, there's no reason not to unlock them all if there is no limit.

I fully support a limit increase. I do not and will not support a limit removal. I've already endorsed the other thread proposing a specific limit increase, over this one just saying "GIMME."

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Lol at the "GIMME" thing. That's exactly what this forum is for. Acting like people are spoiled for asking for what they want in a video game is not going to validate your argument.

When I walk through PJ and every single person literally has every single piece of gear and every single generic merit and every single job level maxed out and they have all copied each others macros and gear sets, and the only thing left is for them do decide which WS to merit...
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even then your argument will still be pointless.

It's a video game guy. It has been distributed to millions of people, across the entire globe. You are not a special and unique snow flake. You will never come up with a gear selection, merit selection, macro or technique that has not already been used by 1,000 other people already. Stop with the customization and uniqueness arguments. They will never hold weight.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

sorry, I don't see much difference here. you are essentially saying there should be no limit, so you can have everything- only that it should be "unlocked" over time. No, it should not be that way, because then there is no decision to be made, no customization, and no distrinction between characters as far as who is more into what jobs. The time it takes to merit a WS is trivial, there's no reason not to unlock them all if there is no limit.

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There is a distinction between characters. There's race, appearance, the jobs we have leveled, the gear we're willing/able to obtain, and the differences between us as players. I'm not you, you're not me, and neither of us is the guy or girl over there.

There is a reason to not unlock them all if there's no limit. There is a reason not everyone has every job leveled to 99, much less geared and useable. It's called personal taste. I don't need someone to tell me I can't have them all. However, if I was the type to want to level everything, and again I AM NOT, I don't think it's right to penalize people who want to play that way after offering them just the opposite for the vast majority of the game. If the limits were there from level 1 that's fine. You can't close Pandora's Box once it's opened. You can't clamp down on freedom once people have tasted it.

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I fully support a limit increase. I do not and will not support a limit removal. I've already endorsed the other thread proposing a specific limit increase, over this one just saying "GIMME."

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I'm glad you support the increase, and I'd be willing to accept that as a compromise. I'm not this guy...

http://www.absoluteanime.com/big-o/thumbs/_roger.jpg

...but the art of negotiation isn't completely lost on me.

I look at it this way, what is my 90 masamune sam w.o shoha, what is my drg w.o stardiver, what is my dnc and thf w.o exent? I would love to ger resolution and that spiral move for my drk war pup and mnk, but thats not possible without gimping my other jobs. I know shajin spiral isnt needed because of the verethregna, but I want it for the skillchain reasons for pup lol. If I droped exent, my dnc is horrible, and I'm better off going sam or drg lol, and same with my sam not having shoha or my drg not having stardiver, then my other DD jobs just seem better and more FUN FUN FUN to play. My dark knight is useless to play because I don't have the merits to give it a decent ws.

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I don't think it's right to penalize people who want to play that way after offering them just the opposite for the vast majority of the game.

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here's the thing. Most other games, 1 character = 1 class. In these games, it's much easier to choose to specialize in one or a few of them- you have to do a ton of quests all over again, so it's a pain in the butt. In FFXI, it's a much eaiser process to play different classes. This means many people have all of them and even the fussiest specialists have at least a few because they got bored enough to try another class. So how do you seperate the people who have truly mastered one or a few jobs from the people that have every job? Other than gear, the only way is to force people to choose which jobs they want to be able to strengthen the most. Gear doesn't really count- Only a small selection of gear in the game that is wanted is especially hard to get, and it's mostly the super weapons. So what it ends up coming down to is do you have a lv90+ relic/mythic/empy for a job or not. Placing some restrictions on the merit system creates at least a small way to spec your character.

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I would love to ger resolution and that spiral move for my drk war pup and mnk, but thats not possible without gimping my other jobs.

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I would love to get resolution and that spiral move for my drk war pup and mnk, but that's not possible because I want to strengthen my other jobs more.

That's how you should be reading it. You aren't gimping jobs, you're chosing which ones you want to be better. Remember, you didn't have any of these WS at one point.

This reminds me of the rested EXP system in WoW. At first it was a penalty or the absence of a penalty. Then they reworded things, called it a bonus, and suddenly everyone thought it was a bonus or lack of a bonus (They never actually changed the system, they simply changed the "tired" state to "normal" and "normal" to "rested bonus"- the actual numbers behind the system never changed). It's all a matter of perception. I don't see choosing one weapon skill over another as choosing which job to gimp. I see it as choosing which one to make stronger. When I choose to merit STR over INT, I'm choosing to boost my DD jobs, not choosing to gimp my mage jobs. You pick the merits that favor the jobs you want to play most- that's what the merit system is for. If someone asks you "which jobs are you best at?" you should not ever be able to answer "all of them."

HOWEVER... When you consider the typical number of jobs that a person plays, the system may be too confining- that's why i support the limit increase. I would agree it's hard fro many to say just three jobs are your favorites out of 20. 5? Seems reasonable to me.

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I think you just enjoy arguing for arguments sake which is probably not a bad thing inspires people to add their ideas into a topic i suppose.

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No, i'm not arguing just for argument's sake. I'm arguing this issue because it is an issue I have feelings about it and I would prefer it to be addressed in one way more than the other.

no you've been arguing that we should specialize, which in a game about specialization is fine and dandy this isn't one of those games, just because you can level all jobs means you do, just because you can merit all ws's means you will either, example i've yet to even do the quest to unlock paladin, eventually i will however for now i do not feel like it, similarly with whm, i took it to 50 for subjob purposes and a certain level of self utility, otherwise i do not particularly enjoy the healer role.

Thats 2 mythic ws's that i could unlock should i level the jobs, hell i still haven't done some of the 500 point questable weapon skills. Honestly with capping at 30 merits and having to leave abyssea to actually apply my merits to the weapon skill i'd only be meriting weaponskills i might actually use, for me atm that'd be blade: shun and shinjin spiral, my staff skill is too low to unlock soul shatter (do i have the right name? meh) not that i melee on blm or sch anyways, nor is tp practical due to staff swaping. the rest of the merited ws's i do not have high enough skill or the right jobs to merit/make use of them.

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no you've been arguing that we should specialize, which in a game about specialization

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What game is "about" specialization? that's not a game I want to play. Specialization is just one component of a game. it's not what any particular game is "about." Speccing is only a minor part of this game, but it's what the merit system is supposed to do. It's not just "EXP at the level cap." If that's what it was, you may as well just continue to have more levels instead of "forcing" us to spend points on things.

If they didn't want any kind of specialization in this game, the merit system would never have been put in the game. even before it came out, we were all likening it to WoW's talent system.

Shut up alhan lol. This is ffxi, not another MMO. Specialization doesn't exist in FFXI, and the specialization that does exist, is made of gimps thinking that they are doing fine while everyone else is going "wtf are you doing". Why would I want to play my drk when my sam does it better because of a ws i merited. It completely makes certain jobs useless to me.

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Specialization doesn't exist in FFXI, and the specialization that does exist

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"It doesn't exist, but it does." You can fuss over how much speccing is in the game, but the fact is there is some. It's not the main focus of the advancement system as a whole, but that doesn't mean it's not there nor does it mean it shouldn't exist. Next, try expressing your thoughts without being rude.

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Why would I want to play my drk when my sam does it better because of a ws i merited.

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Because you'd rather play DRK? Am I the only person in this game who chooses their favorite jobs based on which are the most fun to play? If the job is useless to you, then don't play it. No one's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to. I've beaten pretty much everything prior to the existence of voidwatch with some of the most "lol" jobs in the game. Break out of your pigeonhole.

Even when/if I level <insert popular job here>, I'm not changing my merits. Why? Because I'd rather play the other jobs i enjoy. If you really need <popular job> and there's *no way in hell* to do it without it, then I have it if I really need it and I'd be happy to use it- at the same time, if someone else has that job, it would be better if that someone else went that job instead of me. I have my favorite jobs more fully decked out-I'm specialized in them and I can handle them better than the average person, especially one who hasn't specialized in them.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Break out of your pigeonhole.

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That's part of the problem with the merit WS restrictions....with the current state of the game, it FORCES you to pigeonhole jobs.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

That's part of the problem with the merit WS restrictions....with the current state of the game, it FORCES you to pigeonhole jobs.

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No, it doesn't. Players force eachother to pigeonhole jobs, not the merit system. If everyone had everything merited, it wouldn't matter who did what. Since that's not possible it does matter:

"Need a WAR? My friend over there had it fully merited with the best gear. Need a DRK? My friend over there has it. Need a SCH? Oh that's great, I have that and fully merited it- that's one of my choice jobs! Great, so we have everything we need! You've got SAM merited, and I know someone who decked out WHM."

That wouldn't happen if the merit system wasn't there or it had no limits. The merits distinguish the people who "just have" a particular job from the people more devoted to that job. People are playing the popular jobs because they're popular, not because the merit system forced them to.

And why does it matter if someone is capable of using more than 3-4 jobs now?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No, it doesn't. Players force eachother to pigeonhole jobs, not the merit system. If everyone had everything merited, it wouldn't matter who did what. Since that's not possible it does matter:

"Need a WAR? My friend over there had it fully merited with the best gear. Need a DRK? My friend over there has it. Need a SCH? Oh that's great, I have that and fully merited it- that's one of my choice jobs! Great, so we have everything we need! You've got SAM merited, and I know someone who decked out WHM."

That wouldn't happen if the merit system wasn't there or it had no limits. The merits distinguish the people who "just have" a particular job from the people more devoted to that job. People are playing the popular jobs because they're popular, not because the merit system forced them to.

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You may not realize it, but I think you actually just supported my last post. Again, as I stated before:

with the current state of the game, it FORCES you to pigeonhole jobs

Bolded for emphasis. The current state of the game (as in how everyone chooses to play) makes certain jobs and setups more attractive. To get in on the action, you may HAVE to choose from ONLY the popular jobs---not necessarily the jobs you prefer to play, but what others want you to play. Come as this job, with this setup, or sorry....we don't want X Y Z, we want A B C.

So with the current restrictions, you may very well be forced to nerf your favorite job's WS selection so that you can get into content on a less preferred job in order to have a shot at getting the items/events done for your preferred job. To add insult to injury, this same state of the game may well dictate that you not only have job A, B, or C available...but also have specific Gear and/or WS available, or it's again GTFO as well.

Soo....I'll restate it again:

with the current state of the game, these WS restrictions may in fact be forcing people to pigeonhole jobs.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

What game is "about" specialization? that's not a game I want to play. Specialization is just one component of a game. it's not what any particular game is "about." Speccing is only a minor part of this game, but it's what the merit system is supposed to do. It's not just "EXP at the level cap." If that's what it was, you may as well just continue to have more levels instead of "forcing" us to spend points on things.

If they didn't want any kind of specialization in this game, the merit system would never have been put in the game. even before it came out, we were all likening it to WoW's talent system.

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/sigh it wasn't about specialization, it was about increasing your power without leveling, a solution from when they originally said they would never increase the cap past 75.

oh and you can hit F100 nyzul without 2xSCH (among other things) right? i wont completely deny that you have choices but some choices in light of a particular goal are impractical VS the optimal cookie cutter.

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No, it doesn't. Players force eachother to pigeonhole jobs, not the merit system. If everyone had everything merited, it wouldn't matter who did what.

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so we could bring an alliance of 18xDRK since every one could buff heal and tank NP since they had everything merited right? /sacrasm

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Disagree, and not liked. You should have to specialize, that's what merits were originally about.

You can already merit them all if you don't mind them not being as good.

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According to my linkshell, you have to have all AM2 on BLM to proc in Voidwatch. So much for "specialization"...

I see nothing wrong with wanting to merit whatever a person wants to merit. If they want it all, and want to spend the time getting it, they should be allowed to.

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Originally Posted by Meyi

According to my linkshell, you have to have all AM2 on BLM to proc in Voidwatch. So much for "specialization"...

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Yep! Specialization flies out the window as soon as the efficiency police get their cuffs on you. We all end up meriting the same stuff anyway with few exceptions. It doesn't help that some of the "choices" are downright laughable. Aggressive Aim? Really? Yeah, I'm totally going to specialize in that!

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I see nothing wrong with wanting to merit whatever a person wants to merit. If they want it all, and want to spend the time getting it, they should be allowed to.

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Agreed. I'd rather have total freedom than be forced into decisions just so someone else can feel like a special snowflake.

Thats the whole point. I enjoy MORE than 3 jobs. I would love to play dark with some SKILL, but that involves RESOLUTION, which I DONT have room to MERIT. I'm sure alot of people would agree favoring 3 jobs out of 20 is just silly. Done talking to you, you're annoiying. Next thing you're going to do is make an argument to counter this and keep going, because that's what you do.

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To get in on the action, you may HAVE to choose from ONLY the popular jobs

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I conciously avoid whatever is currently being bandwagoned. I got through virtually every event in the game just fine. You do not HAVE to choose from ONLY the popular jobs.

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According to my linkshell, you have to have all AM2 on BLM to proc in Voidwatch. So much for "specialization"...

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Last I heard, they were planning to cut out merit abilities from the proc system. But even when you get them all, you have points left over, so you have to choose which one(s) you would like to favor using when possible.

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I see nothing wrong with wanting to merit whatever a person wants to merit. If they want it all, and want to spend the time getting it, they should be allowed to.

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I see plenty wrong with it unless the time required to do so is high enough that it's not realistically possible to get it all. Why do people hate the idea of making decisions so much?

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Agreed. I'd rather have total freedom

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If you want total freedom, go play Minecraft or something. FFXI is a highly structured game, has been a highly structured game, and will continue to be a highly structured game. FFXI is not a sandbox, you do not get total freedom.

*sigh* Current score:
FREEDOM! NO LIMITS! GIMME EVERYTHING!: 394267832465
I want to make decisions about my character!: 1

In FF Tactics, why do I only get to set one other job's action abiltiies? I want to set them all!
In WoW, why can't I pick all of the talents on all the talent trees? I want them all!
Who doesn't want everything? The "gimme" mentality around here is disturbing.

It doesn't really matter, as nearly everyone with a thought on this subject is united against me. I've said my peice, you disagree with it, time to leave it at that. It's not like SE is going to radically change the system because people want everything anyway. The system has been the current way for years. I do not see it substantially changing, other than limits increased, as has been done on a few occasions in the past.

Like I said before I'd have no issue with the current merit system if the new WS weren't head and shoulders above what you naturally gain through skillup. If you do not have the Empyrean WS or the merit WS on some weapon types you are at a huge disadvantage.

A Shoha SAM is significantly better than a SAM that still has to rely on Tachi: Gekko.
A BST with Ruinator has a significant advantage over a BST still using Rampage.
A Resolution DRK is going to blow a DRK using Spinning Slash out of the water.

In a game where minor gains are everything, these are huge improvements of a caliber that FFXI rarely achieves.

If you were actually running a real argument for a middle ground position of balance you'd bring up improving some weaponskills that are laughably bad and quite recent like Bora Axe, Cloudsplitter, Blade: Shun, Tachi: Ageha or even the retweaking weaponskills that are old like Ground Strike, Steel Cyclone or Blade: Ku.

Giving access to all weapon skills is not the same as being able to spec every ability in every ability tree of wow, FFT's skill setting is much akin to subjobing your analogy fails.

Further more up until now save for certain class restrictions for select weapon skills you could learn any weapon skill or quest any weapon skill, you speak of the game's structure well this goes against that very structure that has prevailed since the start of the game, you also speak of not being forced to merit certain skills but if you play rng sam and drk primarily but use say pup mnk every now and then because you enjoy them well SoL you merit what's best for your best jobs, not for fun, not for balance, not for being a snowflake either, or in your case just a flake =.=

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

A Shoha SAM is significantly better than a SAM that still has to rely on Tachi: Gekko.
A BST with Ruinator has a significant advantage over a BST still using Rampage.
A Resolution DRK is going to blow a DRK using Spinning Slash out of the water.

In a game where minor gains are everything, these are huge improvements of a caliber that FFXI rarely achieves.

If you were actually running a real argument for a middle ground position of balance you'd bring up improving some weaponskills that are laughably bad and quite recent like Bora Axe, Cloudsplitter, Blade: Shun, Tachi: Ageha or even the retweaking weaponskills that are old like Ground Strike, Steel Cyclone or Blade: Ku.

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Think this post is a good way to pull it all together as to why people are so at odds with the merit WS system as it is currently implemented.

I have all three of those jobs at 99, as well as 4 other DD's. I often use 4 of them specifically for events (Mostly WAR, NIN, MNK, SAM). I can only merit 3 WS--so only 3 of those jobs can be at their best, leaving the 4th in the dust. Then, there are two other jobs I like to play personally on the side (DRK, DRG), and on occasion use them in events--and I can't take them any further now than I could before.

In short, I can only advance 3 out of 6 jobs I routinely use on the DD front. Why can't I do all 6? If I merit fully for SAM (PA and GK, that leaves me only one more to work with). Prior to this I could potentially do ALL TEN OF MY JOBS TO MAXIMUM POTENTIAL (barring having to strike a balance on the stats b/c 3 of them are mages and not enough points for all skill tweaks for weapons). Yes, we had some limitations in the merit system, but it was nothing like this--it was more along the lines of are we going to focus on Mage or Melee jobs with our more general merits.

In the past, aside from having to pick and choose things like H2H meritts and such, we were all potentially on equal footing otherwise, and the only reason to pick and choose jobs was because of job specific characteristics. Now those decisions wind up eventually getting weighted towards WS options after the mandatory slots (healing, nuking, support) are filled. "If you don't have the Empy and/or merit WS options available, sorry....we don't want you on the front line."

All we are really asking for is for them to be more consistent with how it was done in the past--we're talking over 7 YEARS of freedom, and now they clamp down on everyone like this.

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Giving access to all weapon skills is not the same as being able to spec every ability in every ability tree of wow

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It's almost EXACTLY the same. The only difference between talents and merits is talents are earned as you level up while merits are earned after you level up. You're "forced" to choose between a set of skills and effects which you are not allowed enough points to fully obtain.

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Like I said before I'd have no issue with the current merit system if the new WS weren't head and shoulders above what you naturally gain through skillup. If you do not have the Empyrean WS or the merit WS on some weapon types you are a a huge disadvantage.

A Shoha SAM is significantly better than a SAM that still has to rely on Tachi: Gekko.
A BST with Ruinator has a significant advantage over a BST still using Rampage.
A Resolution DRK is going to blow a DRK using Spinning Slash out of the water.

In a game where minor gains are everything, these are huge improvements of a caliber that FFXI rarely achieves.

If you were actually running a real argument for a middle ground position of balance you'd bring up improving some weaponskills that are laughably bad and quite recent like Bora Axe, Cloudsplitter, Blade: Shun, Tachi: Ageha or even the retweaking weaponskills that are old like Ground Strike, Steel Cyclone or Blade: Ku.

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This is a perspective I can respect- and it's also the area I'd rather see improvements in.

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All we are really asking for is for them to be more consistent with how it was done in the past--we're talking over 7 YEARS of freedom, and now they clamp down on everyone like this.

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What? The merit system has been "limiting" and clamping down on everyone for all of those 7 years. This has only become an issue now because the weapon skills are shinier than most of the merit options available previously. You were forced to choose which attributes to raise, whether to raise HP or MP more, which combat skills to raise, which magic skills to raise, whether to merit enmity up or down or merit crit rate or a couple other random things. I'm not really seeing this "freedom" that's been "clamped down."

The merit system has never forced this kind of restriction where players were completely left out because they weren't fully meritted in one specific category. My BLM NEVER got cut out of a party because it wasn't fully spec'ed out--it still had it's utility. Same with other jobs. I still got asked to go on SAM to events because they wanted the skillchain flexibility and it's 2-hour.

THEY WANTED THE JOB'S FEATURES, NOT THE WS.

NOW, THEY RESTRICT B/C OF THE WS.

THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

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The merit system has never forced this kind of restriction where players were completely left out because they weren't fully meritted in one specific category. My BLM NEVER got cut out of a party because it wasn't fully spec'ed out--it still had it's utility.

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So you're getting cut out of playing BLM because you haven't merited Shattersoul? Huh? How are the weapon skill merits causing this?

(some edits later) Well, If you're complaining about the addition of the SAM WS, that's because that WS is OP, not because the merit system is defective. Going back to Sparthos' post, it wouldn't be that big of a deal if the new WS were better balanced.

I agree with your post in the sense I want to be chosen because of my job's features. This needs to be addressed by balancing the jobs, not by changing the merit system. You're still going to have your problem even if you could unlock every merit WS.

Good grief... are you really that dense? No, BLM had it's role for stuns, DOT/Enfeebles, and Magic bursting. Having 2/5 in an element vs 5/5 in an element wasn't as game breaking as not having Freeze2 at all. Now, 2/5 Shoa vs 5/5 Shoha----which SAM is gonna be asked?

It's like the guy that held us up in sky for almost an hour once because we didn't have the right skill chain options he wanted. We finally got tired of it, and our party with a BLU ran off to make our own GD chains for people to burst off of and we got our crap done.. Yes....that's right... when I built up enough TP on BLM, even I occasionally opened up Darkness chains and we got busy while one groups sat around complaining about not having the optimal setup. And all it took was me having WSNM's killed to make it happen. Something ANYONE can have in their arsenal, regardless of what is going on in their merits. That's the freedom we are talking about---having the flexibility to get things done the way we want it, not with one specific cookie cutter role we are forced to play in.

THAT is the problem. People want even MORE specific builds that are more merit WS focused, or it's GTFO. These tight restrictions are just further increasing this rigid mentality.

SE either needs to make jobs more relevant without the new merit WS in their arsenal, or make the merit WS more available to more jobs.

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Good grief... are you really that dense? No, BLM had it's role for stuns, DOT/Enfeebles, and Magic bursting. Having 2/5 in an element vs 5/5 in an element wasn't as game breaking as not having Freeze2 at all. Now, 2/5 Shoa vs 5/5 Shoha----which SAM is gonna be asked?

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Good Grief, are you really that dense? Re balancing can solve these problems. Unlocking all the WS won't solve these problems. You're not even using a very good example because BLM isn't at all dependent on weapon skills whereas they are central to SAM.

Simple balance adjustments could make the difference between merits less drastic. Have the stat mod start higher and increase less or something. (e.g. start at 60% and go up to 100% instead of 20% to 100%) Unlocking every weapon skill isn't going to make your problem of which job you get picked to go on go away. You speak of skillchain options. I can't even remember the last time I saw people planning to do skillchains. It really has no bearing on this issue at all.

Actually , the BLM reference IS relevant to your argument. YOU made the argument that the merit system was already a major issue with job selection prior to them adding the merit WS system. BLM is an easy way to point out the flaw in that argument. It was more important that Freeze2 be unlocked then it was to have capped potency. Even if it was only 1 merit, it was still useful and accepted. Whereas, 1/5 Shoha is considered pointless unless you are using it as a Skillchain opener--and that is not what people want Shoha for, they want it 5/5 for maximum damage output. Either you have it 5/5 for the frontline, or you need to come on a job with a WS that is 5/5 that they will accept.

Pure and simple. If you aren't spec'ed out on a WS now, they don't want you ON THAT JOB. So, you are left with a limited job selection based in large part by your WS merits. This was NOT the case with the merit system in the past. Now, it has become a determining factor, and like I pointed out earlier, there are some cases where you may have two WS setup for one job--if you can't use that WS on another job, then you may have just reduced your acceptable job options.

If you want to maintain your flexibility, then you have to merit soem or all crossover WS like Startdiver and such. In the end, you may not be able to use a WS on a job you would prefer to go on. Merit WS's with restricted job use, and you may freeze yourself out of invites. This was NOT the case with the past merit system and WS selection--it was either you had the WS unlocked, or you didnt' (which, had nothing to do with merits, but quests which you were free to pursue every single one if you had the job leveled and skilled).

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Unlocking every weapon skill isn't going to make your problem of which job you get picked to go on go away.

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Actually, yes it would. If you could go 5/5 on WS for at least the primary (possibly even secondary) weapon for each of your jobs, then that potentially rules that out as a limiting factor. Then we are back to Job features, gear, and stats like it has always been.

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Pure and simple. If you aren't spec'ed out on a WS now, they don't want you ON THAT JOB. So, you are left with a limited job selection based in large part by your WS merits. This was NOT the case with the merit system in the past.

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Again, this means that the weapon skills are too good, not that the merit system is flawed. This didn't happen with the group 2 merits, which added lots of new spells and abilities. If those went around for this long without threads like this coming up, then the merit point system itself is not at fault for the current situation. The weaponskills themselves are.

It's not like there Aren't any other threads complaining that one or more of the weapon skills are too good.

There's a difference between 'good' 'pretty damn useless' and a thread started by an idiot. Guess what T2 merits, some of the merit WS, and that thread are.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

There's a difference between 'good' 'pretty damn useless' and a thread started by an idiot. Guess what T2 merits, some of the merit WS, and that thread are.

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There's a difference between making a reasonable statement and dressing up nonsense to look reasonable. Guess what any other post in this thread (except possibly some of mine), and yours are.

Especially since you're basically wrong on all three counts of yours.

Okay, let me correct that by stating some of the T2 merits are pretty damn worthless (Aggressive Aim? Martyr isn't very useful, AM2 is pretty worthless, Bio 3 and Blind 2 could be deleted for how useful they are, Ambush is trash, Guardian is trash, Foe Sirvente and Adventurer's Dirge are both bad, Sange should never see more than 1 merit if that, Convergence and Diffusion past 1 are sad, Altruism Focalization Tranquility and Equanimity aren't very good either). Most of the merit WS are good or have uses. That thread was still started by an idiot.