Attacking Monsters with an Avatar While Being AFK.

Give up Raist, they've all lost it.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

the activity was locking people out---not because they were afk, but because they had siezed control of all the camps.

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If you can't out-claim someone who's AFK, you need to find a new game to play.

In a general response, let me put it this way:

1. SE's definition of "AFK gameplay" as I understand it, is when non-active player(s) is/are performing an action(s) automatically (without direct input by a player), which result in obtaining some sort of reward, to include EXP, skill, or items.

By this meaning, if you are in a party and you go AFK, you are performing no action, therefore, you are not participating in AFK gameplay.

Now, the idea that "being AFK and earning EXP is cheating" is scary because if you have to WC and your party decides to pull another mob anyway, you have now become a cheater!

So, the first problem with this interpretation is "what measuring standard can you apply to determine what constitutes being AFK versus cheating?"

2. When a single player is AFK, the player is incapable of performing an action. This should apply to all jobs equally, however in the case of SMNs, the pet is capable of engaging a target on its own. Because a pet is not a player, the SMN is now able to earn EXP, Cruor and/or items "automatically" without actually participating in the game. This is not the case in a leech party, where at least one member of the party has to take action.

Of course, if it's OK for SMN's to "auto-kill", what happens when you have an alliance of SMN's leeching while AFK? Is this likely... probably not. But it does throw a wrench in the argument for both sides.

Ultimately, because FFXI is an MMO, there will always be competition for everything. This isn't FFI~X-2, FFXIII, or FFXIII-2, where you can run around and kill everything you see at will. Or, as a best example, FFXII, where you can auto-leech in the crypt using the "rules."

FFXI will be a player-versus-player battle for gear and NMs, and it should be. The problem here isn't that SMNs can auto-attack while AFK; the issue is that "key monsters" (which includes normal monsters needed for quests) are being claimed by AFK players, which is disrupting play for "active" players.

This is not an issue in leech parties, as they typically camp in undesired camps and fight overlooked mobs; there is no disruption.

Once there is a disruption, however, SE will look into it, just as they are now with SMN.

Moral of the story: stay under the radar.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Give up Raist, they've all lost it.

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Or do we?
Can you put forth arguments in defense of "afk SMN farming of chigoes" that can stand on their own?
All I've seen so far is diversionary tactics attempting to shift focus to other (non-)issues.

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Originally Posted by Duzell

PPL were doing it to farm wind geodes and Garudites while AFK, due to the frequent wind weather in the zone and ease of killing chigoes.

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The GM's don't care about this either way, no one reports these guys it's not a big deal. There're people farming these zones with 3rd party automated tools already while totally AFK. What makes this horrible is they take action on in game features but, if players are abusing away farming by other means it's totally ignored.

What is SE jailing these people for when they created the design issue in the first place? It's totally backward thinking on their part. They're punishing players for features that've been in the game since snm was introduced yet, they sit back and ignore everything else. This is just ironic.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

It's totally backward thinking on their part. They're punishing players for features that have been in the game.....

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There are a lot of things that have been "in the game" as a feature, or intentional design, and those designs have been manipulated.

The key word for everyone arguing about the "irony" is disruption. The SMN auto-attack feature was disrupting gameplay for others. SE is not punishing anyone for using job features as they were designed, but rather for intentionally disrupting gameplay for others by claiming key monsters while AFK.

I swear, some of you guys argue about this stuff and suggest that you've been playing FFXI your entire life, yet you're totally ignorant to the actual issues at hand, and you want to blame "big bad SE" for not letting you do whatever you want. Of course, if you can't be happy, then "damn those cheaters!" who found a way to get what they want without disrupting gameplay for others....

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Originally Posted by Sarick

The GM's don't care about this either way, no one reports these guys it's not a big deal. There're people farming these zones with 3rd party automated tools already while totally AFK. What makes this horrible is they take action on in game features but, if players are abusing away farming by other means it's totally ignored.

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They take action against the real bots as well as the smn bots. It's just that because pets auto-attack stuff, and because this has become widespread, merely TAKING action is no longer enough. They need to take action and say "Hey guys, I know it's using ingame features, but absentee play still isn't ok by our rules. So knock it off and tell us if you see someone doing this." It should go without saying that real bots are bad too. Would you feel better if they made a post saying "Oh, by the way... botting? Still bad. We'll still ban you for that."

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It's totally backward thinking on their part. They're punishing players for features that've been in the game since snm was introduced yet

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Your car (I'm assuming you have one, if I'm wrong, please just pretend along with me) could probably go 100 mph through a school zone. It's a design feature. Doesn't mean it's legal or a good idea. Kitchen cookware could be used to remove various pieces of your neighbor's body. Again, design feature but illegal and bad idea. Using nothing but ingame features, I could trick various NMs in various zones into attacking and killing hapless newbs. Against the rules, and for good reason.

If they made SMN botting impossible without using an actual bot, they'd have to prevent SMN pets from auto-defending their master. Again, BAD IDEA.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

Your car (I'm assuming you have one, if I'm wrong, please just pretend along with me) could probably go 100 mph through a school zone. It's a design feature. Doesn't mean it's legal or a good idea.

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Woah, hold on now... how else are we supposed to skill up Tarutaru evasion?

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

Your car (I'm assuming you have one, if I'm wrong, please just pretend along with me) could probably go 100 mph through a school zone. It's a design feature. Doesn't mean it's legal or a good idea. Kitchen cookware could be used to remove various pieces of your neighbor's body. Again, design feature but illegal and bad idea. Using nothing but ingame features, I could trick various NMs in various zones into attacking and killing hapless newbs. Against the rules, and for good reason.

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With the car feature you make a choice to push the peddle to the floor to exceed the speed limit. Pressing the gas peddle is a conscious choice. With the summoner you just call the pet go AFK and "THE GAME" pet decides to defend you. The game automates the attacks because the game has the pet auto attack. It's more like using cruse control on the highway. You push one button (summon pet) then sit back and let the car (pet) manage the gas peddle (aggro).

Also, pulling NM to MPK people is intent on greefing others. If you're trying to escape a NM and accidentally happen to accidentally die running etc. it's not the same.

I don't agree that they should be allowed to do this. I do think it's stupid that they ban people for this when there are other bigger issues they DO ignore. Seriously, If it's broken then SE should fix it.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

With the car feature ... pressing the gas peddle is a conscious choice. With the summoner you just ... go AFK. The game automates the attacks because the game has the pet auto attack. It's more like using cruse control on the highway ... you push one button

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So you're still missing the point. Summoning your avatar and then going AFK is a chosen act.
Pressing on the gas is a chosen act.
Pressing a button is a chosen act.

If you can't see that using "summon avatar" and going AFK doesn't fit in the same category as somone who uses an infinite-loop macro by pressing "one button" ... then this whole issue is lost on you.

Frankly, I could care less. The issue is not that the avatar is auto-attacking . The issue is that the SMN is deliberately putting himself in a position where abusing that feature allows him to auto-claim monsters without actively playing the game.

There is a difference between using a feature, and abusing it. These Summoners were abusing it, which brought forth the undesirable wrath of SE.

Again, you're using the argument that "the game allows it, so it should be ok" but the game also allows players to leech EXP, which was something Duzell pointed out earlier.

The difference is that the prior interfered with other players while the latter does not.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

With the car feature you make a choice to push the peddle to the floor to exceed the speed limit. Pressing the gas peddle is a conscious choice. With the summoner you just call the pet go AFK and "THE GAME" pet decides to defend you.

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And then you happen to go afk in the same spot day after day. You happen to get a stack of geodes in a week, and happen to sell them on the AH for a regal crapload (3.7x as large as a normal crapload (it's metric)) of gil, and happen to go back to going afk in the same spot some more. That's why this is being handled by the STF and not just the GMs. They're being more careful than they should be about this so they only get repeat offenders.

Almost no one goes afk where they'll get aggro unless they're in a HUGE hurry (house burning down), or they're botting. If you're in a HUGE hurry, you probably won't do it more than once in the same area.

If you want to stay completely safe though, follow this basic rule: If you wouldn't afk there without a pet, don't afk there with a pet. How many people get killed by going afk and getting chigoe aggro in Grauberg_S? In the last year, I'd say it's lower than 0.000000001% of the population of the game. So if you banned 100% of people who couldn't respond to a tell by a GM for 10 minutes while their pet kills chigoes, you would only wrongly ban about one millionth of a person.

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Also, pulling NM to MPK people is intent on greefing others. If you're trying to escape a NM and accidentally happen to accidentally die running etc. it's not the same.

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Also, changing your job to SMN, going out to Grauberg_S, finding an open chigoe spot, summoning your avatar and going afk at that location for 12 hours is intent on engaging in absentee play. Both are against the rules. The tricky part is proving intent.

I find it strange how you think GMs would search for intent when it comes to MPK, but would completely skip that step when it comes to botting.

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I don't agree that they should be allowed to do this. I do think it's stupid that they ban people for this when there are other bigger issues they DO ignore. Seriously, If it's broken then SE should fix it.

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"Bigger issues" is subjective, but I'm willing to listen. Which issues should the STF and GMs be focusing on?

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Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

So you're still missing the point. Summoning your avatar and then going AFK is a chosen act.
Pressing on the gas is a chosen act.
Pressing a button is a chosen act.

If you can't see that using "summon avatar" and going AFK doesn't fit in the same category as somone who uses an infinite-loop macro by pressing "one button" ... then this whole issue is lost on you.

Frankly, I could care less. The issue is not that the avatar is auto-attacking . The issue is that the SMN is deliberately putting himself in a position where abusing that feature allows him to auto-claim monsters without actively playing the game.

There is a difference between using a feature, and abusing it. These Summoners were abusing it, which brought forth the undesirable wrath of SE.

Again, you're using the argument that "the game allows it, so it should be ok" but the game also allows players to leech EXP, which was something Duzell pointed out earlier.

The difference is that the prior interfered with other players while the latter does not.

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You're the one missing the point. I already stated that I don't think it's in the best interest to not FIX this problem. I also pointed out that they have other issues that are clearly being ignored. The previous post about cars breaking laws isn't the same. These players are just standing around and gaining exp/etc while afk because a broken game feature. I did point out that others are doing the same thing using other means and no action is taken.

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"auto-claim monsters without actively playing the game".

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Their resolve is laughable when they refuse to do anything about other issues that disrupt the game. You know the ones that aren't because broken in game features. These interfere with the economy of hard working players who farm while not afk.

Judging by my quotes being butchered (partial quotes) I don't think half of what I've wrote even equals what people think I wrote.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

"Bigger issues" is subjective, but I'm willing to listen. Which issues should the STF and GMs be focusing on?

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

I find it strange how you think GMs would search for intent when it comes to MPK, but would completely skip that step when it comes to botting.

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Automated message: Thank you for your interest, we're aware this issue exist. A representative can't help you. Please visit www.uselessreportsite.com and spend your valuable time writing something no one will ever read or investigate.

Bot farming and this issue are identical except this one uses in game exploits. I'm just like the others ranting on this topic. I don't care how people play as long as they don't disrupt the game by screwing over others. If I'm busting my arse to get a few avatarites and see people automated flood farming it's no different then what these snm are doing. That's why.

Your hyperlink turns up nothing. I'm sorry, do you have some real complaint about the STF or GMs, you know... maybe something that's rampant in the game that they aren't doing enough to fix? (I'm totally setting you up for an easy one here, I'll be really disappointed if you don't get it.... but I'm also prepared for it...) Or are you just upset that they took away your breeze geode farm?

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If I'm busting my arse to get a few avatarites and see people automated flood farming it's no different then what these snm are doing.

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You realize, they aren't botting those geodes for their own trials, right? (you also realize those chigoes shouldn't be dropping __ite because they're not a high enough level...?) What's the average playtime of an FFXI player? Let's be generous and say it's 6 hours a day. 6 hours a day they get to bust their arse and sell their spoils for gil. Now let's compare that to the average bot. 24 hours a day they get to relax and do whatever they want and sell 4x the spoils for gil. Do you know what that does to the market?

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as they don't disrupt the game by screwing over others

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I'm glad you're not one of the people being screwed over by it, but that doesn't mean people AREN'T being screwed over by this very mechanic which you are ambivilent towards. What do you make your gil off of? Now imagine a bot can make 4x as much per day off it as you, and they don't even have to be at their keyboard.

IMO, GMs should hunt down absentee players as much as police hunt down counterfeiters.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

These players are just standing around and gaining exp/etc while afk because a broken game feature. I did point out that others are doing the same thing using other means and no action is taken.

Their resolve is laughable when they refuse to do anything about other issues that disrupt the game. You know the ones that aren't because broken in game features. These interfere with the economy of hard working players who farm while not afk.

Judging by my quotes being butchered (partial quotes) I don't think half of what I've wrote even equals what people think I wrote.

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Two things:

1. Your quotes are not being butchered. There's a difference between cutting out monologue to repeat only the core content of a quote (which I have done), and changing what a person said. Your message remained the same in every quotation.

2. You still don't understand. It's not farming while AFK that SE is freaking out about. It is farming specific mobs which other players need to farm, while AFK.

Again, if you look at the last 10 years of FFXI, the only time SE freaks out about this is when there is a significant impact on players (ie. interference). AFK leech parties do not do this (as of now) because no one bothers camping where they do; no one bothers fighting the mobs they do; and no one loses claim on monsters in the area they are fighting.

You may not see a difference, but SE does, and for as long as I've been playing FFXI, I can say that they've got it right on this one.

Oh, and on the touchy subject of leech parties, let me say this:

Just because someone leveled a job without doing leech parties, does not mean that person "had it harder." Unless you can recall the days where "EXP Chain #6!" was more rare than a JP party inviting an NA player, then you don't know what real EXP grinding is. Honestly, with the level cap pushed to 99, and the amount of EXP required, Abyssea became a necessity in order to allow players (both new, and old on a new job) to be able to quickly get to the meat and potatoes of the game.

I can attest to the STF never reading anything sent to them. I've reported one fella on their website on 41 Separate occasions within the span of 3 months for blatant use of Movement Tools, and he's still zipping around the world, in towns, etc etc in plain sight. Also GM'd him a couple times and got the same tired "We don't really get paid enough to care anymore" response.

Honestly just reported this guy to see if the GM's even cared anymore. Turns out they don't. So you're really wasting your time caring about 3PT uses in this game. Unless of course its inside Nyzul Isle.

Frankly I'm surprised they're devoting so much attention to this issue. I mean, I'm aware its more or less abusing game mechanics in order to obtain something more easily, But it just seems like such a small issue. But oh well...

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I can attest to the STF never reading anything sent to them. I've reported one fella on their website on 41 Separate occasions within the span of 3 months for blatant use of Movement Tools, and he's still zipping around the world, in towns, etc etc in plain sight. Also GM'd him a couple times and got the same tired "We don't really get paid enough to care anymore" response.

Honestly just reported this guy to see if the GM's even cared anymore. Turns out they don't. So you're really wasting your time caring about 3PT uses in this game. Unless of course its inside Nyzul Isle.

Frankly I'm surprised they're devoting so much attention to this issue. I mean, I'm aware its more or less abusing game mechanics in order to obtain something more easily, But it just seems like such a small issue. But oh well...

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Guys this is what I'm talking about /\ above. I don't care what you think I'm writing because "I DON'T SUPPORT" what you think I'm supporting. Geodes or not when your doing something and a group of the same player comes in like a swarm of locust then go's afk clearing a zone somethings broken. Like I said the situation is laughable that they choose to do something about an in game design issue yet they refuse to investigate RMT like activities. The delusion that anyone cares dictates how clueless some people are.

This is the cold hard reality here. I saw the players ranting about legitimate use of BST in dynamis. I'll tell you what happened beastmaster got treasure hunter nerfed. These issues wouldn't have caught the attention of the developers if people didn't complain. This is why I laugh so hard when players cheer about little things like this. The BST and SNM where a result of player complaints for legitimate in game working as intended features until the developers decided otherwise. They decided otherwise because people complained.

You see where I'm going here? The people who complained got what they wanted because they was upset about how players abused the system. The locust AFK farming players aren't helping the system in fact they're worse then the SNM problem. This is where I've been all along. I'm not defending anyone for for exploiting the design flaw. I'm saying they shouldn't punish players for doing this if they do nothing about a bigger problem. Both the SNM and the AFK farming are in essence the same except one isn't ignored.

As for the broken link, it's working as intended. It's a pun to a bad joke. I thought the url address would've been enough to make that obvious. I guessed wrong because most people arguing with me still don't know where my position is.

For the record I don't care about duel boxers and most third party tool players. I do care if people do stuff that disrupts the gamelay of others. If someone is going to farm gil legitimately fine let there be completion. It's the AFK players competing against active players that sour the milk.

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I'm saying they shouldn't punish players for doing this if they do nothing about a bigger problem.

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They don't do "nothing" about bigger problems in the game. They're just incompetent when it comes to getting results. You seem to assume they'll somehow be magically more effective at banning cheaters there than they are at banning cheaters elsewhere. How many people have been banned so far for afk chigoe killing?

"Oh, but they could be spending their resources to do a better job at getting the REAL criminals!" Everything has a point of diminishing returns. Sometimes it doesn't matter how many people you have standing around that soup pot. It doesn't make it done faster or taste better to have 500 chefs there.

The same thing could be said about cops: "Why are you catching jaywalkers when there's still unsolved murders?!" Against the law is against the law. True, most people get away with jaywalking. But if a street suddenly became absolutely crowded with people who can't seem to stay on the sidewalk, cops would have to start cracking down on jaywalking, wouldn't they?

Just because some people get away with felonies doesn't mean that cops should completely stop enforcing the law when it comes to misdemeanors.

Yinnyth you are a sage to these forums.

Also, let's avoid exaggerations: AFK alliances don't "swarm in like locusts and clear a zone" simply because they're AFK... they're in ONE spot! Locusts swarm and move and leech off of everything until nothing's left, and then move on to the next spot... the locust analogy is more accurate ToAU EXP "camps".

But of course, if "I can't do X, no one else should be able to do Y."

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

They don't do "nothing" about bigger problems in the game. They're just incompetent when it comes to getting results.

Just because some people get away with felonies doesn't mean that cops should completely stop enforcing the law when it comes to misdemeanors.

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That's not even close to right. Little is done unless enough people complain in the first place. You seriously sound like nothings wrong to begin with. It's very obvious if a reasonable effort is made to enforce policies. In this case "If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck and quacks like a duck. Guess what! You guessed it's probably a duck!"

So, don't play oblivious onlooker you know exactly whats going on here.

So, Just a quick show of hands. How many people here even knew this happened or was an issue/occurring before they announced to stop doing it?

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

So, Just a quick show of hands. How many people here even knew this happened or was an issue/occurring before they announced to stop doing it?

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I knew it was happening. I went to the grauberg chigoes for a dagger trial a few months back. Found it strange how there was a SMN at every chigoe pop location, and none of them had trial weapons on. Decided to come back after work. They were still there. Decided that mess wasn't worth my time and went to Bhaflau spiders instead.

Didn't breathe a word of it to anyone but my friend though.

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Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

But of course, if "I can't do X, no one else should be able to do Y."

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Taking refuge with sarcasm because your too afraid to say what is really on your mind? Apparently everyone must believe that wrongs aren't wrong if they're done by nice people like ourselves. After all, seeing these players AFK farming proves one important thing. They're intelligent enough to get away with it just too lazy to get up and work for it.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

So, Just a quick show of hands. How many people here even knew this happened or was an issue/occurring before they announced to stop doing it?

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I ignored it for the most part until things got strange. You see I try to be friendly to people who are camping with me in the same area. I'll usually send a tell saying "Hello" and ask what they're doing. I normally offer to team up especially, if they're doing a trial or xping a fellow. In these cases the players didn't even acknowledge my presence.

The strage part is for the AFKers farming, they would randomly attack/follow mobs I provoked and disengaged that where close to them.They would then blindly proceed to follow me if I dragging the mob across the zone. The way I see things is anyone with even tiny bit of intelligence could figure out what was going on here. Yinnyth called this incompetence. No!, it's something worse.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Taking refuge with sarcasm because your too afraid to say what is really on your mind?

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I've made it very clear what was on my mind, and have repeated it several times. Sarcasm may be your defensive mechanism, but it's my way of saying "you can't fix stupid, so you might as well blend in."

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Originally Posted by Sarick

So, don't play oblivious onlooker you know exactly whats going on here.

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No, I really don't. My best guess would be that even if someone did report the afk SMNs to the GMs, that information was lost in beaurocracy and nothing ever came of it. Instead, I'm thinking the STF managed to trace RMT funds all the way back to some afk SMN in grauberg, then noticed a ton of other SMNs doing the same thing. One thing lead to another, big public announcement, overblown community reaction.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

So, Just a quick show of hands. How many people here even knew this happened or was an issue/occurring before they announced to stop doing it?

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Never heard of it happening before SE's announcement, neither has anyone I know in game.


Judging from posts in this thread, 2 people have actually seen it happen, both on Fenrir.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Frankly I'm surprised they're devoting so much attention to this issue. I mean, I'm aware its more or less abusing game mechanics in order to obtain something more easily, But it just seems like such a small issue. But oh well...

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It's a small, but highly visible problem. And the solution is very simple as well: declare it illegal and have the player community deal with detecting the bugbuggers. Nyzul isle cheating is several degrees more severe, but it's also in a far more private setting (you don't affect others directly, for example) for a far shorter time period (30 min vs 24/7) and with a far more difficult solution (multiple ways to cheat, (very) difficult to detect, etc).

I'd seen it and heard of it happening, but never have done it myself. I still see no reason to care and I won't be playing policewoman unless SE starts cutting me a check.

So far it looks Fenrir-specific only.

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Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

I've made it very clear what was on my mind, and have repeated it several times. Sarcasm may be your defensive mechanism, but it's my way of saying "you can't fix stupid, so you might as well blend in."

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The issues I see aren't like red stop signs, they're simple guidelines. Unfortunately, any fool can make things more violent or complex than dealing with them. It in my case it takes a bit of genius, and courage to travel in the opposite direction. This is why I think people shouldn't sit around and ignore these issues. Based on the BST and SNM attention the developers gave it's very clear a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Step back and look at it this way, we can't fix everything ourselves but, nothing reduces the odds of getting things done by ignoring them.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

No, I really don't. My best guess would be that even if someone did report the afk SMNs to the GMs, that information was lost in bureaucracy and nothing ever came of it. Instead, I'm thinking the STF managed to trace RMT funds all the way back to some afk SMN in grauberg, then noticed a ton of other SMNs doing the same thing. One thing lead to another, big public announcement, overblown community reaction.

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Very nice response. You seem to think information lost in bureaucracy. This isn't entirely true, the issues that affect players are only noticed if the a small group of dedicated players can convince the developers to do something about it. The automated help desk messages and lack of immediate action support this as fact. To sum things up, when it gets the attention of the developers only then will the they make a big overblown public announcement and take an issue seriously like the SNM AFK farming.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

I'd seen it and heard of it happening, but never have done it myself. I still see no reason to care and I won't be playing policewoman unless SE starts cutting me a check.

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Like almost everyone else on this game. I assume they feel the same way until it disrupts their ability to play in a productive community. It's obvious there's no honorable reason to do otherwise unless the above conditions are met.

I like having my avatars attack whatever is attacking me. One less thing I have to cycle through and command my pet to do.

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Originally Posted by Meyi

I like having my avatars attack whatever is attacking me. One less thing I have to cycle through and command my pet to do.

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How very un-bst of you.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

How very un-bst of you.

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I had BST at 75 for a very long time, back when it was solo only and everyone still hated us. I never liked that my pets would attack whatever was attacking it rather than what I told it to/wanted it to fight.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Very nice response. You seem to think information lost in bureaucracy. This isn't entirely true, the issues that affect players are only noticed if the a small group of dedicated players can convince the developers to do something about it.

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You seem to have this all figured out, so you're the one I will ask: How small, and how dedicated? Could I get the devs to make changes to Dynamis if I had 12 people who agreed with me as long as they were dedicated enough? 24? 48? How many people would it require for me to make the changes to the game I want?

It took what...? 1000+ people refusing to update their payment method for over 2 months before SE decided to postpone the deadline? SE has an agenda. If player desires coincide with their agenda, it's more likely that desire will be granted. The further you are from that agenda, the more people you require. Even if 90% of players tell SE to make PUP 2000x stronger than any other job, they'll probably ignore the request thinking that we're all insane. But if 10% of players mention that people are cheating in Nyzul, they'll probably spend resources attempting to stop that (because it coincides with their goals for the game).

Now, what % of players do you think oppose absentee players getting banned? And how strongly do you think SE opposes absentee play? And how easy do you think it is to determine if a person is afk when killing chigoes? Monitoring Grauberg seems like a slam dunk for the STF and GMs to me.