[dev1107] Sange Update - Why?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wish12oz

They reply to every post I make claiming throwing is useful, and offer no proof whatsoever, so ya, I do need to respond to them.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post309446
How they can look at this and think throwing is useful is just beyond me though. It takes an extra special form of headinthesand to be able to do that.

---

Then are you not just banging your head against a brick wall?

problematic-ninjas are problematic: "we're not for it, so we will bash every post you make and ignore your replies unless we can twist it and multi-quote it to our advantage"

These forums are for feedback and suggestions, that's what we are trying to do. I just dislike that in order for the Reps/Devs to see these feedback/suggestions they have to weed through all those negative, and in most cases purely problematic post, only because some chose not to use a tactic available to the job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Then are you not just banging your head against a brick wall?

---

I am, but it's fun to bang your head into a wall sometimes, especially when you're right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bulrogg

I just dislike that in order for the Reps/Devs to see these feedback/suggestions they have to weed through all those negative, and in most cases purely problematic post.

---

Then quit posting and the DEVs won't have to read your trash. Or better yet, make useful posts instead of constantly making assertions with no proof. I provided proof throwing is garbage and refuted every single claim that throwing was useful by proving with math (what this game revolves around) that throwing was not useful. Why don't you provide some proof throwing is useful, and we can have a real discussion, since that's what you seem to want so badly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bulrogg

"we're not for it, so we will bash every post you make and ignore your replies unless we can twist it and multi-quote it to our advantage"

---

Since you're all for not ignoring stuff I post, which you do all the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wish12oz

You have yet to name ONE instance where throwing is AT ALL useful. You just stand on your high horse and claim it is, but have yet to offer ANY proof.

---

Why don't you name 1 instance where throwing is useful? You've never done this.

Your questions have been answered before, it is not my fault that you clearly have a problem with reading comprehension. You just skip over the posts you can't twist around and ignore them. It is not for me to repost what you clearly didn't fully read the first time in your attempt to bash and belittle us with your insults. This leads me to wonder if you suffer from some sort of selective mutism or are just over all hard-headed. Wait, I know the answer to that since you already said that you enjoy banging your head against a wall... all that banging has even made you delusional to think that you are correct and that your feedback and suggestions take precedent over anyone else in cases where you disagree.


We're here to make suggestions and offer feed back, not to make problematic post and discourage other members from posting which you clearly are.

Have fun with your frothing rebuttal so you can have the last word, we're off to see The Avengers.

--and cheers to SE for updating Sange!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bulrogg

Have fun with your frothing rebuttal so you can have the last word, we're off to see The Avengers.

---

Welcome to yesterday. (Last week in the EU)

Now if we could just get your ninja to 7 years ago so you'd know throwing was bad, and get you to read what people post, so you'd know nothing was ever posted proving throwing to ever be useful for anything, we'd be set.

EDIT:: You should not hide your FFXIAH info too, that way everyone can see the quality of your ninja and judge your comments for what they are, from someone who is bad at FFXI.

i think you lost all credibality Wish12 you have distasteful sportsmen ship.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vixin

you have distasteful sportsmen ship

---

http://0.tqn.com/d/cruises/1/0/L/Q/4...ports_Deck.jpg

I agree the colors are a bit garish, and I'm not sure why the only pools are wave-pools, but I don't think Wish owns one of these.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vixin

i think you lost all credibality Wish12 you have distasteful sportsmen ship.

---

Wish is still more credible to me than some slack-jawed twit who repeatedly says the same crap and provides 0 Evidence or even situations where his logic would be remotely correct. This is hypothetical of course and not directed at any 1 single poster.

Too mean? Maybe, But in a world like FFXI, its incredibly baffling some people would think throwing can be useful for NIN. Math is very strong proof, Its not just something people use to look smart or elitist despite the common rabbles attitude toward educating themselves.

I think i said this in the last Throwing thread... What it comes down too is, If you enjoy throwing on NIN? Goood for you, Go enjoy throwing, Merit sange, and Toss some Shuriken, I'm not here to judge you. But accept its terrible and useless.

The problems come from those trying to say its useful, and spreading disinformation to any NIN who would come into this thread and read that tripe. Spreading lies with no proof or evidence to support your claims and not even being able to name a single situation where Throwing would increase a NIN's Melee output is a plain waste of time and just rude to anyone coming here for real information.

At least if they accepted the fact Throwing was absolute horse-sh*t maybe it would get a meaningful update. Shoving your head in the sand and telling everyone Throwing is awesome is only hurting them more in the end. I mean, SE Thinks a D:120 Shuriken (Or w/e) is so broken it'd be akin to some Relic Shuriken, they obviously have absolutely no clue how useless their little ninja stars really are.

Which is scary considering they're the ones who made the game and have to know how Dual wield works and how throwing is completely screwed by the attack delay during and after use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Wish is still more credible to me than some slack-jawed twit who repeatedly says the same crap and provides 0 Evidence or even situations where his logic would be remotely correct. This is hypothetical of course and not directed at any 1 single poster.

Too mean? Maybe, But in a world like FFXI, its incredibly baffling some people would think throwing can be useful for NIN. Math is very strong proof, Its not just something people use to look smart or elitist despite the common rabbles attitude toward educating themselves.

I think i said this in the last Throwing thread... What it comes down too is, If you enjoy throwing on NIN? Goood for you, Go enjoy throwing, Merit sange, and Toss some Shuriken, I'm not here to judge you. But accept its terrible and useless.

The problems come from those trying to say its useful, and spreading disinformation to any NIN who would come into this thread and read that tripe. Spreading lies with no proof or evidence to support your claims and not even being able to name a single situation where Throwing would increase a NIN's Melee output is a plain waste of time and just rude to anyone coming here for real information.

At least if they accepted the fact Throwing was absolute horse-sh*t maybe it would get a meaningful update. Shoving your head in the sand and telling everyone Throwing is awesome is only hurting them more in the end. I mean, SE Thinks a D:120 Shuriken (Or w/e) is so broken it'd be akin to some Relic Shuriken, they obviously have absolutely no clue how useless their little ninja stars really are.

Which is scary considering they're the ones who made the game and have to know how Dual wield works and how throwing is completely screwed by the attack delay during and after use.

---

you are in no position to say who is wrong or right everyone pays to play remember that your not above anyone

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vixin

you are in no position to say who is wrong or right everyone pays to play remember that your not above anyone

---

And here we see the flawed basis of your entire argument. To you, it's your $12.95 and you can play however you want to. Which is entirely true, and we don't care how you play the game, that isn't something that concerns us. Our problem is the outright lies you spread when you say throwing is useful. I posted MATH that proves beyond a doubt throwing is garbage and should not be used for damage, and isn't useful for anything else either. I even went so far as to explain in great detail every single thing I did to make it very easy for anyone to understand if they read it two or three times. This is a statement of fact, and just how it is. It has nothing to do with how you play the game, its just math proving throwing isn't useful. If you want to go ahead and use it anyway, that's fine, it's not negatively impacting me in any way. I only care when you come around and start saying throwing is good, because I can prove it's not good, and you have nothing to refute that argument, so stop trying to.

EDIT:::
So in conclusion, when something comes down to math, and only math, it's easy to tell who is right or wrong. I did that math and posted it. Anyone who reads it and understands it now has every right to tell you that you're wrong, not just Karbuncle, when you come around and start saying throwing is useful. If you want to do math that opposes my findings, go right ahead, I would love to see. But until then, you have to accept that my answer is the right answer, or you need to look at my math and correct any mistakes I may have made and post the new answer, those are the only options available to you at this time.

EDIT#2:::
Just to make this even more simple.
Here's how everyone against you see's the argument in this thread.

We're saying 2+2=4, and you're screaming that it's 5 because you pay money to play this game and you want it to be 5. No matter how much money you pay, you can never change the fact that the answer is 4. No matter how much you desperately want it to be 5, it will never be 5, and anyone who understands the answer is 4 has the right to tell you it's not 5.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vixin

you are in no position to say who is wrong or right everyone pays to play remember that your not above anyone

---

Did you even read the third paragraph? I'm assuming not, Reading is hard, just like Booklearnin and Math right? Maybe i shoulda put more pictures of cats to keep those with short attention spans reading...

I said, If you enjoy playing NIN Throwing Shuriken? wonderful, Go Naruto It up all you want, You can play the game however you want, in fact, I advocate on more than one occasion that the game is suppose to be about fun. But heres the kicker, "Playing how i want" ends when you spew your misinformation on a public forum. You can't claim "I do it for fun" when you come parading around about how awesome it is, provide no proof to your claim, and continue to try and ignore any amount of evidence shown to refute your claims that Throwing is useful.

You can go RPShuriken all you want, But posting how good it is when its actually really awful, on a forum where a lot of new users would probably go first, is detrimental to the playerbase. They should know if they want to be a good NIN, throwing has 0 place, Its something fun you can do on the side, But in no ways helps the job in a meaningful positive way.

I don't have any cat pictures, so hopefully you read past the first paragraph this time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Did you even read the third paragraph? I'm assuming not, Reading is hard, just like Booklearnin and Math right? Maybe i shoulda put more pictures of cats to keep those with short attention spans reading...

I said, If you enjoy playing NIN Throwing Shuriken? wonderful, Go Naruto It up all you want, You can play the game however you want, in fact, I advocate on more than one occasion that the game is suppose to be about fun. But heres the kicker, "Playing how i want" ends when you spew your misinformation on a public forum. You can't claim "I do it for fun" when you come parading around about how awesome it is, provide no proof to your claim, and continue to try and ignore any amount of evidence shown to refute your claims that Throwing is useful.

You can go RPShuriken all you want, But posting how good it is when its actually really awful, on a forum where a lot of new users would probably go first, is detrimental to the playerbase. They should know if they want to be a good NIN, throwing has 0 place, Its something fun you can do on the side, But in no ways helps the job in a meaningful positive way.

I don't have any cat pictures, so hopefully you read past the first paragraph this time.

---

good for you and dont quote anyone if your going to be a lazy ass, i never said shurikens out dmg dual weild i said sange with high level shurikens do give good numbers and dmg out put. happy "kitty" now lol?

What good number? What for you a good number? Cause honestly 5/5 Hyoton with Futae go between 950-1250 easily and sitgly more in abyssea w/o MAB atma or specific gear beside Iga +2 set. I'm sure I can boost it up easily with few gear, and Tsurara are so cheap to make/buy... Add the fact than Hyoton: San recast is 60 sec w/o fast cast and Futae is 3 min.

In other word, beside RP, Shuriken and Sange can't even catch San spell. Add on that that San spell HAVE utility VS high resistant melee mob and those are usualy weak to magic (ninjustsu). You want good number? build a magic attack set and go with Ninjutsu instead, you wont catch melee but at least, you would do some decent number at lower cost.

Also, the "I pay to play so I can do anything" isn't a good argument to prove you're point.

I / L I K E / TO / S E E / Y O U ' R E / P R O O F

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vixin

I / L I K E / TO / S E E / Y O U ' R E / P R O O F

---

Maybe this will help. Well, unless you're asking us all to slough off this filthy flesh and become proof immaculate as we transform into glorious grain alcohol. Sucks that I can't do the latter, it sounds like more fun.

Anyway, moving on.

The "excess delay" of ranged attacks is noted here. It is also noted here although not in as straightforward a style.

This is relatively old information so the actual testing may well be in places that no longer exist, otherwise I'd try to dig it up because I'm just that bored.

Wish used the formulas for ranged and melee delay to figure out the "value" of a "super-duper" imaginary Relic Shuriken mentioned by the Development Bros in this very topic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpankWustler

Maybe this will help. Well, unless you're asking us all to slough off this filthy flesh and become proof immaculate as we transform into glorious grain alcohol[/URL].

---

look up local AA metting if you need help
U Mad Bro ?

Holy crap you F'n retarded throwing fanatics, the more you argue for the viability of throwing the more you pump SE's head full of it being fine as is and thus screw yourselves.

You want to go waste gil being sub par fine that's your prerogative, however all you keep doing is polluting the thread with misinformation that could be detrimental to other players, demanding math that has already been provided, and got all around butt hurt because you know you're wrong.

Give up and get out.

Wow. Lots of blah blah blah.

Recap: No one is arguing math. No one is saying Throwing is uber. What is being said is that some ninjas choose to use it. It is also being said that there is an interest to see it updated in hopes SE can make it useful again. But isn't that pretty much what is going on in every thread regarding updates/adjustments? So why doesn't everyone just give up and get out; in fact let SE close the forums and just go back to adjusting what they like and let us be happy with what they give us, or not.


--nice tags btw; if only I was clever enough to have thought of using them as an insult first, because that's never been done before. :rolleyes: but seriously Joe Musashi would have been a better tag than Naruto. :p

i support Bulrogg on that comment all the way /raise fist "we love you" :]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bulrogg

Recap: No one is arguing math.

---

This is true. Except, sadly, one guy. A guy who works for SE. In fact, Wish's really freaking long post about math and shuriken damage under ideal conditions was in response to that rather than anything another player posted.

It's really sad, actually.

This whole topic is basically "I don't enjoy this because it doesn't perform well." or "I enjoy this in spite of it's lacluster performance, which isn't that bad." or "I might enjoy this if it performed better." or "Don't do this whether you enjoy it or not; it performs very badly and your group has to abide by your actions."

The response from the Development Bros? "This is how a super-duper Relic Shuriken we will never make would perform," and it turns out even the shuriken of their dreams would be very disappointing. Similar to the man or woman of one's dreams in real life, which is the awful thing that I play videogames to escape!

No wonder this topic went to a dark and unhappy place after that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bulrogg

Wow. Lots of blah blah blah.

Recap: No one is arguing math. No one is saying Throwing is uber. What is being said is that some ninjas choose to use it.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vixin

i said sange with high level shurikens do give good numbers and dmg out put.

---

People are arguing that throwing is good. Now stop saying they aren't.
As for Vixin, can you prove it's useful? Show me the math behind why it gives 'good numbers and dmg out put.' And then compare that to meleeing. After you manage to do that please present your findings, until then, go away because you have added nothing of value to this thread. As you yourself put it:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vixin

I / L I K E / TO / S E E / Y O U ' R E / P R O O F

---

I've already shown why throwing is terrible, please enlighten us as to how sange is useful.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post309446

EDIT::
Seriously, everything you need to know to do the math is in the post I linked, except 1 thing, whenever you use a job ability there's a 2 second delay where meleeing stops. You have to combine this delay with the normal throwing delay that occurs to determine time required to use sange.

your cheap invest in koga shuirkns or iga for crying out loud.
this is my sange marco:<head>Zha'go's Barbut
<body>Koga chainmail +1"with augment"
<hands> Ninja tekko +1
<legs> Byakkos haidate with crit augment
<feet> i keep in movement speed shoes due to fact i usuallly pull but i use iga to get the extra shadow
<back> Terebellum mantle
earr1> mooonshade augment based on tp
earr2> clearview earring
ring1>raja ring
ring2> bellona's ring
<neck> houyi's gorget
now for you answer no i never miss sange shots since as you can see i have hefty range acc bonus and my skill is caped at lv 99 nin dmg on mobs that ranget "Very Tough" in The Boyada tree and Gustva Tunnel is usually 934-1.3k using koga shurikens as i said befor in an earlier post i had bough 3 stacks of them off a person "how they got them i dont know your gyess is good as mine". theres my proof and the tp gain is affected by stp armor it give you 34-40 tp depends if i have stp amor marcoed in at the time and yes innin works , no dmg is still the same at 4 yalms as well at 20-23.4 yalms theres my proof.

<reedit> my sub was war and i used 5/5 sange merits to test out koga body pior to the info release on range attack bonus per merit on koga body.
103 str
139 dex
90 agi
attributes with all merits and armor combined

Hearsay is not admissible, I expect math. Show me the VIT and DEF of those mobs and the damage calculations for the average Sange would do. Then repeat the process, but do it for whatever katanas you have on, and then compare the two. Don't come in here and say "I did 1200 damage to this mob." That's not going to cut it. Wanna know why? Cause I can claim anything too, watch this. "If you meleed those mobs instead of using Sange you would of done between 2,000 to 2,200 damage and gained 60 TP." See how that worked? I just made stuff up and posted it, why should it be believed at all? It's the exact same thing with your post above mine. PROVE its worth using, don't throw out random numbers and expect people to believe you.

first of all i dotn have time to figure out snaggle tooth puks , and the other vt mobs in boyada tree the grounds tomb says level range 100-103 you can do the math since your so good at it and for katanas i have kikoku and the nte one and finally i dont count the oh wow i hit 2k sange as a awalsy i only factor in the ones that i do on average so on average i do 934-1.3k you can assume more are critical hitting due to innin than the 934 which are not and second your math figures are so misleading if i use lv 40 katanas no shit they would do less than lv 71 shurikens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vixin

first of all i dotn have time to figure out snaggle tooth puks , and the other vt mobs in boyada tree the grounds tomb says level range 100-103 you can do the math since your so good at it and for katanas i have kikoku and the nte one and finally i dont count the oh wow i hit 2k sange as a awalsy i only factor in the ones that i do on average so on average i do 934-1.3k

---

You're eyeballing this. Use a parser and do it 5000 times and post the parse or do the math.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vixin

you can assume more are critical hitting due to innin than the 934 which are not and second your math figures are so misleading if i use lv 40 katanas no shit they would do less than lv 71 shurikens.

---

Lvl 40 Katanas would actually beat the "relic shuriken" the DEVs spoke of.

If you don't have time to figure it out the mob stats for those puks, then don't use them. Pick arbitrary mob stats and use that. Let's say the mob has 100 VIT, and is lvl 99 and has 400 defense. OK? Now do the math and prove sange is worth using on this mob. Hell, you can even give it the piercing bonus of +25% damage puks would get throwing shurikens at them that katanas wouldn't get because they're slashing damage, it doesn't matter, because katanas will still win.

lol no one is saying shurikens are to be used as an alterntive to dual wield you are just to headstrong to actually consider that shuriknes are good for pulling since you get futher range than provoke they are faster than a bow and gun, and the use of sange allow a decent chunk of tp and dmg to be used every 5min that is how shurikens are used. now we wait to see you with yoru dumbfound look and give another paragragh for why dual weild makes you epeen over 3 football stadiums long since there is many ways to play nin many armor options your not 100% correct but you are 100% adivocate for everything you do.

Just to shut you up cause I tire of this boring conversation and you can't figure out how to do the math anyway.
It takes 2~ seconds to cast utsusemi ni, 2~ seconds to use a job ability and in the previous post we determined the time required to make a throwing attack with shurikens is 4.59 seconds.
2+2+4.59 = 8.59 seconds, for 5(?) throwing attacks worth of damage and TP gain.
Koga shuriken is 88 damage, if the mob has 100 VIT and your base STR is 100 (close enough) it looks like you add 15 STR, so this will give you 3 fSTR, we'll just say you're using good food and berserk as well, since you got warrior on sub, this should put your attack around 900 and give you a pDIF of around 2.25
(88+3)*2.25=204.75 damage per throw, 5.5 tp per throw.
1023.75 damage per sange, 27.5 tp per sange, if all 5 hit connect


We already determined the real delay of a 210 and 201 katana to be 2.88 attacks every 2.02 seconds.
I have no idea what katanas youre claiming to be using outside of Kikoku, which I assume is 95 forever, so we'll use 95 kikoku and a generic 51 damage/201 delay lvl 99 magian katana.
so 60 and 51 base damage, the average middle ground is 55.5.
Looking at the TP set I posted, we see +21 STR. This gives us 5 fSTR. Attack value is going to be slightly less for the tp set, but should cap pDIF for 1 handed melee at 2 regardless.
(55.5+5)*2=121 damage per katana hit
121*2.88=348.48 damage and 12.96 tp every 2.02 seconds using your katanas.

So we'll take the shuriken time and dive it by the katanas time
8.59/2.02=4.2524
So if we multiple every melee value by 4.2524 we can determine melee damage and tp gain during the time it takes to use sange.
348.48*4.2524=1482.05
12.96*4.2524=55.111

So lets see here, actually using sange is:
1023 damage 27.5 tp
Meleeing with your 95 Kikoku and 99 Magian offhand is:
1482 damage 55.1 tp

LOOKS LIKE MELEEING WINS AGAIN.
I didn't even account for the hidden extra damage procs on kikoku and it's STILL WINNING.
now go away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vixin

lol no one is saying shurikens are to be used as an alterntive to dual wield you are just to headstrong to actually consider that shuriknes are good for pulling since you get futher range than provoke they are faster than a bow and gun, and the use of sange allow a decent chunk of tp and dmg to be used every 5min that is how shurikens are used.

---

running for an extra 1-2 seconds to be in range of provoke, then running back 1-2 seconds to where you would be standing if you used sange is faster than stopping for 1 second so the server registers you stopped moving, and you dont get the 'moved and interrupted aim' message, then waiting 4.59 seconds to use a throwing attack.

Since I know you can't count, thats 2-4 seconds to provoke, and 5.69 seconds for throwing. Provoke is faster.

And since standing around using sange is time you could be spending back at camp and meleeing, it comes back to the meleeing does more damage in the time it takes to use sange than using sange does.

Are you going to tell me a time when shurikens are useful yet? Cause I'm still not seeing it.

That still a lot of gear to bring to only use a job ability every 5 min...

Might as well give up wish, even with all that they will insist and persist, that's why they post about throwing and sange in 4+ other threads besides this one, for any one with half a brain they can follow what you have said, for every one else, you're bashing your head against a brick wall and making no headway.

this issue isnt that we know what does better your just to stupid to get the fact that this is a game and we just playing it for fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vixin

this issue isnt that we know what does better your just to stupid to get the fact that this is a game and we just playing it for fun.

---

Hi. Should i have wish re-quote the part where multiple people have suggested throwing to be viable and situationally useful? Or the part where I said Have fun with throwing, the game is designed for fun, But don't spread misinformation on a forum trying to insist it has any uses outside of RP'ing your favorite Anime Ninjas?

We can do Either or, Or we can do both. Up to you. Personally, I find repeating myself absolutely dashing. Because if i have to repeat myself, it just points out that the one I'm repeating too either can't read, has the memory of a goldfish, or is just "to stupid' they forget whats been said in this thread so far.

I think in the very first thread this came up, Wish himself also acknowledged that people should have fun with what they do. I don't think wish has ever argued that you should never throw if it makes you happy and you enjoy doing it. His only argument, i 'think', To date has just been that Throwing sucks. The only thing he's doing is shinning the light of reason on this thread in case some new NIN Decides to read it and gets the idea throwing is good. Which its not.

So go enjoy having throwing, If all throwing is to you is something "Fun", and in turn know how terrible it is, why do you continue to try and defend it or insult Wish when you know he's 100% correct?

again i wont agree with your comment "hes 100% correct"? what is that bs? and its not that wish is right or wrong its he bashes people gives them a 2-4 paragraph how hes elite and they are "noobs" then closes it off saying "your wrong, wrong wrong". If you want to get yrou message across just say it dont bash or troll simple as that. To save you the trouble dont post no one cares/ wantes to be treated like your our father "i keep repeating myself" maybe you should quit while yoru ahead if people are refusing to listen no?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vixin

again i wont agree with your comment "hes 100% correct"? what is that bs?

---

Then you deny the truth. Its not really hard to see. He's not arguing you can't go have fun with it. Math Doesn't have a formula for determining fun(Maybe). So he's only arguing it sucks. Which it does, and now, You're backpedaling that you only use it for fun. So neither of your ideals clash at this point.

You just seem to be arguing for attention then?

Quote:

---

and its not that wish is right or wrong its he bashes people gives them a 2-4 paragraph how hes elite and they are "noobs" then closes it off saying "your wrong, wrong wrong".

---

First off, Welcome to the Internet

Second off, Knowing how to play your job or Middle-School Level Math is not being Elite. Its called Basic human intelligence. Get some?

THird off, It is about "Right and Wrong". There are two options when playing a job, The right way, or the wrong way. Throwing on NIN Is the wrong way. You can do it for shits and giggles until you're blue in the face, Wish is only here to stop other NINs from getting the impression Throwing might be useful. It simply is not. In its current state. It could be in the future, But right now there is no uses for it.

His arguments mean nothing more, or nothing less. Simply throwing sucks. He's not saying you can't have fun and do it, He's just saying it offers nothing beneficial to the job. If you do it for fun, you should already understand this, Because if you thought it was useful, you wouldn't be doing it for fun, you'd be doing it because its useful. Or both. But you acknowledge you only do it for fun, Which acknowledges you know its not useful. So again, You and Wish's ideal should not conflict at this point.

Whats there to argue?

Quote:

---

If you want to get yrou message across just say it dont bash or troll simple as that.

---

You called him Stupid.

Quote:

---

To save you the trouble dont post no one cares/ wantes to be treated like your our father "i keep repeating myself" maybe you should quit while yoru ahead if people are refusing to listen no?

---

I don't quit when it comes to defending something i'm right about, No matter how thick-headed or idiotic my opponent may be, This applies to all my arguments, not you directly, So don't get the idea I'm specifically calling you thick-headed/idiotic. When I feel the conversation has run its course, I'll stop replying, thats about the worst I'll do.

Oh, and P.S, You obviously care a great deal considering by the tone of your posts, you're getting flustered and angry at our responses, meaning we're impacting you in a negative way, which means you care enough for you to let our responses get in your head. Try not to be too embarrass. Its only natural for people to get angry over time. Anger is after all a natural emotion every one of us experiences in our life.

But it only makes you look foolish if you deny this. Also, I'll be a dad whenever I want. don't make me get the belt on you for back-talking.

you think way to much for this game tbh lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vixin

you think way to much for this game tbh lol

---

Am i too understand that at this point in time, You're saying "Applying Things you learned in Middle School to a Video game is on too high an intellectual plain for me, As such, You are taking this game entirely too seriously by doing such"?

Its what I'm seeing. Then again, I'm not even sure if its proper english, Which i won't fault you on, as english may not be your first language and thats understandable. Though, at this point, You seem to be out of valid responses and will just continue to make 1-liners and desperately attempt for some sentence that will save-face on your part.

Don't do that, Belt time.

usually wish give me more of a figth worth joking about but yours make me feel liek you want to assert your sexxual agression on me. sorry but yeah ill just end it on that note your no fun lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vixin

usually wish give me more of a figth worth joking about but yours make me feel liek you want to assert your sexxual agression on me. sorry but yeah ill just end it on that note your no fun lol

---

So what you're saying is, You told us to get our point across without trolling, Which no one here has done, and in turn, You are now just admitting that you're only screwing with Wish to get responses out of him, which in itself is the definition of trolling?

As well as calling him stupid, you seem to have no idea what you want out of this argument, and are contradicting yourself with every post.

You really are attempting desperately to save face. I think the my paragraph about you getting angry has sent you into an "I ain't even mad" Meme spiral where now you're going to crack jokes and act like you weren't really serious this entire time.

Honestly, I'm a little amazed, I haven't seen this level of denial in months. I expected you maybe to say something like "Yah I'm angry what of it". but this? I find it Ironic you said a few posts back Wish lost his credibility when you... you just murdered yours in cold blood.

and sexual frustration, really? Is that the best you could come up with? I bet you got that from me saying I'll get the belt on you. When you think of your father spanking you you go straight to Sexuality? Hmmm... That's pretty bad.

Even when we concede to the argument, which I know I have, and only state that some ninjas choose to use it, it has to be known when we use it so we can be called wrong.

Even when we just post to make a suggestion for an adjustment, a new ability idea, or to simply ask Rep/Dev questions we're told to to stop cause we're wrong.

So here goes: We're wrong for playing a game for enjoyment. And we're wrong for asking for adjustments and improvements to aspects of the game that not everyone agrees with.

Now, what else will it take to get them to shut up about it and let us try to get a good conversation going on in hopes reps/devs can chime in and perhaps enlighten us as to what their plans/thoughts are? Or will it just revert to the "Don't waste your time". No matter where we try and hold a conversation it always gets trashed up with Naruto RP insults and bickering.

There have been some pretty neat ideas over the ninja forum, but for the most part I see them getting trashed by the same individuals. Why? Because they don't want the job to change except for maybe one direction? Well if I may take a page out if their book: If you want more damage try leveling a real DD job. NIN should remain a jack of all trades type job and be able to take on many roles in the game, except of course healer. I still can't believe someone asked for a healing -jutsu, silly Leaf village and their medical ninjas. (That's how you do a Naruto dig; bazinga):rolleyes:

--and on that note: Good night forum.square-enix.com; stay classy.

This thread really start to go nowhere...
We can resume this:

-Sange is the less efficient of Ninja merits.
-Shurikens cost a lot to make and stack of 12 are not efficient.
-Math proved than best shuriken with best setup cannot be more efficient then melee with basic cheap gear.
-Some people want some attention.
-People who play game for fun will play WHM/WAR to be DD aren't useless but just less effiecient.