Battle Balance Adjustment: Resistance to Enfeebling Magic

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Originally Posted by tyrantsyn

If stronger MND/INT/SKILL apply to this new hack method, a well gear RDM should be able to land enfeeble's faster than any other job. Even if another job class can land a Paralyze it may come down to getting it done with 3 cycle's or 10. If that the case RDM will have the advantage.

What RDM need's is unique spell's not native to other job classes that help's bring them into the content. Which has been discuss plenty. Hopefully those are in the works as well.

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New enfeebles will be added, to GEO though, not RDM. In the form of Amnesia, Stop etc...

I like Tyrantsyn's idea.

Have the resist hack's potency be dependent on your enfeebling skill as a primary modifier for a resist hack, and spell modifiers (INT/MND) as secondary and we're golden. That way RDM WILL be needed to break resistances quicker, since no one gets serious enfeebling gear like RDM can get. Oh, and don't forget merits to keep it at the top. Not ashamed to have Enfeebling Merits.

Some jobs can get some feasible gear for it, but they're mostly out of the way, so...

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

New enfeebles will be added, to GEO though, not RDM. In the form of Amnesia, Stop etc...

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I respect what you always say DH, and I feel your pain in the statement. More than anything I'm just trying to put some faith in the Dev team that there listen to us and not just using everything we come up with else where.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

New enfeebles will be added, to GEO though, not RDM. In the form of Amnesia, Stop etc...

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Where was this said?

After mucking about on the test server, someone answer me why anyone would waste a whole minute spamming spells to build up immunobreak, just to land one debuff, is worth wasting your time on?

First impressions for me showing that no one will still bring a RDM to any event, since by the time they land something that used to be either immune or extremely resistant, the mob will already be dead. Better off just having another DD as people already been doing in Voidwatch.

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Originally Posted by Kaisha

After mucking about on the test server, someone answer me why anyone would waste a whole minute spamming spells to build up immunobreak, just to land one debuff, is worth wasting your time on?

First impressions for me showing that no one will still bring a RDM to any event, since by the time they land something that used to be either immune or extremely resistant, the mob will already be dead. Better off just having another DD as people already been doing in Voidwatch.

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Very true indeed unfortunately T__________T

Looked at kaisha's prelim data and this change is looking pretty laughable, doesn't fix or address anything.

I agree that we'll probably have to wait until SoA to see if this change actually means anything. CoP, WoG and Abyssea all added unexpected massive game changes...

But right now this implementation just seems really really really ... dumb. Even if WHM, BLM and SCH didn't already have massive beneficial abilities that negate the need for enfeebling to become a tactic on those jobs... Even if RDM could somehow pull ahead in enfeebling over those jobs to actually become useful just for enfeebling, which I doubt like everyone else...

Even with those things, this implementation of enfeeble spam is confusing and maddening. The few times I've played RDM in groups lately I've just gotten to enjoy the relief to buff cycling from the enhancement effect duration of Empyrean +2 and cape. Now I'd have to just replace that with spamming the same enfeebling spell unill it lands?! That sounds like a terrible step backward.

Maybe the goal is to make fights where enfeebling really will be necessary and the presence of a RDM, along with other mages spamming the same enfeeble, will allow that enfeeble to land a LOT faster? So kind of like a Meteor team-cast coordination but with different mage jobs, RDM being the catalyst, and enfeebling instead of damage??? I don't know, I'm trying to think of something good about this but just can't.

The only good thing I can say about this change is that total immunity has been mostly eliminated. Gravity and even Sleep seem to be landing on all kinds of stuff...eventually...eventually ... eventually ...

...eventually...

...eventually...

...even...

...tually...

...ev...

...entu...

...ally...

Resist Hacks need to be changed somehow, unless there's something that everyone who has played with it has missed. Ideally something based on skill or much more potent hacks for the less potent enfeeble, but if that's not possible, a huge change across the board won't put anybody at risk of crippling giant monsters.

As the Resist Hack system looks now, many Notorious Monsters will be dead and barely remembered by their middle-aged grandchildren before anyone has a chance to make those things auto-attack 20~30% slower. Very few monsters rise up after two generations have passed to poke at people in mostly non-threatening ways.

Give SCH's Addle.... That is all.

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

Where was this said?

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I was just being sarcastic, though it is most likely the case.

As stated before, this will do absolutely nothing for RDM. It just lets WHM / BLM / SCH land paralyze / slow / blind for procs on a voidwatch NM, that's all.

Howdy!

I have some follow-up information regarding the enfeebling adjustments.

Immunobreaks will occur on all monsters that have a high amount of resistance. As an objective, this is for monsters where:

• You can only land spells with Elemental Seal.
• Monsters who do not have immunity, but spells will not land even when using Elemental Seal.

This has been applied to monsters of all areas on the test server.

※Immunobreaks will not occur on monsters that enfeebling effects can be applied normally. Also, their resist rates will function as they did in the past.

Since this alone cannot address when monsters have complete immunity to spells, we will be working to reduce complete immunity as much as possible, area by area, for each type of contents. Due to the fact that this work will require us to address each NM individually, it is going to take a bit of time to adjust them one by one. Our first task will be implementing this into Legion and Voidwatch.

We believe that with these adjustments the amount of cases where weaknesses cannot be triggered or enfeebling effects cannot be applied due to complete immunity will be significantly reduced.

Also, one of the aims is to make Red Mage’s enfeebling spells much more useful, and as a result of exploring this we decided to make it so that the immunobreak system is only for enfeebling magic skill.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Also, one of the aims is to make Red Mage’s enfeebling spells much more useful, and as a result of exploring this we decided to make it so that the immunobreak system is only for enfeebling magic skill.

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The issue is there is no significant difference for RDM when you compare to WHM/BLM, even more so when they lack unique spells for this category other than merit ones.

As such, this does very little for RDM.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Also, one of the aims is to make Red Mage’s enfeebling spells much more useful, and as a result of exploring this we decided to make it so that the immunobreak system is only for enfeebling magic skill.

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Unless there are also unique and effective enfeebling spells for Red Mage coming down the line, effective enough to merit casting them over and over until an Immunobreak is achieved, the Immunobreak system does very little for Red Mage.

Or the stuff in Andoulin could just melee for 2000 damage a hit, making large amounts of Slow and Paralyze useful again. I...kind of felt a dark cloud approaching as I typed that sentence...

RDM being an enefeebling specialist has at most 3 or 4 unique enfeebles.

Gravity II(Not unique really, just a more potent Gravity I, which again isn't that useful).
Paralyze II(More potent paralyze but hard to say since even when it lands, it hardly procs on hard mobs)
Slow II(Marginally better than Slow I, weaker than Elegy though)
Blind II(A few more -Accuracy than Blind I, useless since mobs have such high accuracy anyway. Other jobs get more potent Blind i.e BLU's Auroral Drape which is like 3x more potent than Blind II).

Notice how 3/4 of those enfeebles are Merit abilities. Why does RDM need level 75 merits to get an edge over White Mage or Black Mage for enfeebling abilities?Hypothetically, the equivalent would be if /WHM and /RDM gave Cure V and BLM, SCH, RDM, PLD, and any job that subs /RDM or /WHM had access to Cure V and WHM only had access to Cure VI via merit points. You see that WHM and BLM get a resoundingly large portion of Enfeebling spells whereas RDM gets a resoundingly small amount of healing and elemental skills. Whereas WHM/RDM or BLM/RDM can cast over 95% of RDM's enfeeble spells, RDM/WHM or RDM/BLM still doesnt get Cure V or Tier 5 Nukes. Our merit spells are very slightly stronger than the spells we learn at level 5, 6 or level 12 and it takes maximum merits to make any of them useful. Assuming a RDM never used merit points, RDM would have no unique enfeebles except Gravity II. By the same token, an unmeritted WHM still has Protect V/Shell V, Cure VI, Curaga V, Sacrifice, Esuna. An unmeritted BLM is hardly affected since they naturally get Tier V nukes, and -aja spells which outclass their merit spells. RDM gets no enfeebling magic that outclass their merit spells and to date are the only class that is absolutely dependent on their merit spells to be unique at 75, even though paralyze II and slow II are not really a noticably potent increase in hard fights over a WHM tossing out a Slow I or Paralyze I.

If gravity II does actually land on NMs it essentially gives melees acc +40, which is really quite good on some of the NMs like rex, bismarck, etc.

But it probably won't.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

RDM being an enefeebling specialist has at most 3 or 4 unique enfeebles.

Gravity II(Not unique really, just a more potent Gravity I, which again isn't that useful).
Paralyze II(More potent paralyze but hard to say since even when it lands, it hardly procs on hard mobs)
Slow II(Marginally better than Slow I, weaker than Elegy though)
Blind II(A few more -Accuracy than Blind I, useless since mobs have such high accuracy anyway. Other jobs get more potent Blind i.e BLU's Auroral Drape which is like 3x more potent than Blind II).

Notice how 3/4 of those enfeebles are Merit abilities. Why does RDM need level 75 merits to get an edge over White Mage or Black Mage for enfeebling abilities?Hypothetically, the equivalent would be if /WHM and /RDM gave Cure V and BLM, SCH, RDM, PLD, and any job that subs /RDM or /WHM had access to Cure V and WHM only had access to Cure VI via merit points. You see that WHM and BLM get a resoundingly large portion of Enfeebling spells whereas RDM gets a resoundingly small amount of healing and elemental skills. Whereas WHM/RDM or BLM/RDM can cast over 95% of RDM's enfeeble spells, RDM/WHM or RDM/BLM still doesnt get Cure V or Tier 5 Nukes. Our merit spells are very slightly stronger than the spells we learn at level 5, 6 or level 12 and it takes maximum merits to make any of them useful. Assuming a RDM never used merit points, RDM would have no unique enfeebles except Gravity II. By the same token, an unmeritted WHM still has Protect V/Shell V, Cure VI, Curaga V, Sacrifice, Esuna. An unmeritted BLM is hardly affected since they naturally get Tier V nukes, and -aja spells which outclass their merit spells. RDM gets no enfeebling magic that outclass their merit spells and to date are the only class that is absolutely dependent on their merit spells to be unique at 75, even though paralyze II and slow II are not really a noticably potent increase in hard fights over a WHM tossing out a Slow I or Paralyze I.

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Not to mention they also get blocked by WS additional effects that are weaker than the merited II effect. Ukko's Slow effect is weaker than Slow II, but can't be overwritten by it. Some WS effects are stronger than merited II effects on the same token though, such as paralysis proc rates on WS with add effect para. I have a hard time understanding why certain spells that were given to rdm to make it unique ended up passed on to whm or blm as well through the climb to 99 (primarily addle) being as rdm's primary role (per skill caps) is to enfeeble.

One thing that would go a very far way to increasing rdm's unique standing again is to abolish the need to merit the tier II line and give it to rdm naturally while giving rdm a totally new type of tier II merits that further enhance these effects or gives them secondary effects IE Slow II add effect could be lowered resistance to earth or wind elemental damage. I've always felt that the tier II merits of rdm were redundant being as the job should have gotten the tier II/III line naturally in the first place given their primary roles as the "enfeeble king."

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

RDM being an enefeebling specialist has at most 3 or 4 unique enfeebles.

Gravity II(Not unique really, just a more potent Gravity I, which again isn't that useful).
Paralyze II(More potent paralyze but hard to say since even when it lands, it hardly procs on hard mobs)
Slow II(Marginally better than Slow I, weaker than Elegy though)
Blind II(A few more -Accuracy than Blind I, useless since mobs have such high accuracy anyway. Other jobs get more potent Blind i.e BLU's Auroral Drape which is like 3x more potent than Blind II).

Notice how 3/4 of those enfeebles are Merit abilities. Why does RDM need level 75 merits to get an edge over White Mage or Black Mage for enfeebling abilities?Hypothetically, the equivalent would be if /WHM and /RDM gave Cure V and BLM, SCH, RDM, PLD, and any job that subs /RDM or /WHM had access to Cure V and WHM only had access to Cure VI via merit points. You see that WHM and BLM get a resoundingly large portion of Enfeebling spells whereas RDM gets a resoundingly small amount of healing and elemental skills. Whereas WHM/RDM or BLM/RDM can cast over 95% of RDM's enfeeble spells, RDM/WHM or RDM/BLM still doesnt get Cure V or Tier 5 Nukes. Our merit spells are very slightly stronger than the spells we learn at level 5, 6 or level 12 and it takes maximum merits to make any of them useful. Assuming a RDM never used merit points, RDM would have no unique enfeebles except Gravity II. By the same token, an unmeritted WHM still has Protect V/Shell V, Cure VI, Curaga V, Sacrifice, Esuna. An unmeritted BLM is hardly affected since they naturally get Tier V nukes, and -aja spells which outclass their merit spells. RDM gets no enfeebling magic that outclass their merit spells and to date are the only class that is absolutely dependent on their merit spells to be unique at 75, even though paralyze II and slow II are not really a noticably potent increase in hard fights over a WHM tossing out a Slow I or Paralyze I.

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To add to this, even if they make it so that only Red Mages can do the Immunohack thing, it isn't going to help the job anyway. Over the last several years the player base has learned that you actually don't need to enfeeble mobs to win fights- even if another mage absolutely can't land enfeebles, there is no reason to take a RDM to enfeeble a mob when you can take a BLM or DD to kill it faster.

It bears repeating, Red Mages need new, unique, and useful enfeebles that actually land on monsters. And are useful, because that point is very important. There is no reason to give anyone a spell if they if the effect is unnoticeable or if it never lands. (Of course, we know that the effects will be devastating when mobs use them on players, because when a mob can cripple or instantly murder a player, that's good game design; if a player can land a paralyze that won't proc at all on an NM that is 24 levels lower than the player, that is hideously unbalanced and is a travesty of justice that must be stopped.) It seems like every mob on the planet has an Amnesia move, it wouldn't be too unfair if Red Mage had a spell that at least slowed down how quickly a mob can gain TP to shoot out their 90 yalm radius instant death moves.

This isn't going to help Rdm's place in end-game. :/

What if... a bunch of BRDs and SMNs cast Paralyze to trigger Immunobreak and then a RDM follows up with a full potency Paralyze II?




I know, I know! Maybe the monster would lose one or two auto-attack rounds over the course of the 20 seconds the Paralysis effect lasts!!!!

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Originally Posted by Byrth

I know, I know! Maybe the monster would lose one or two auto-attack rounds over the course of the 20 seconds the Paralysis effect lasts!!!!

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Oh if only we were so lucky. NMs with those ridiculous resistances also seem to have some sort of potency reduction, even if you ES land a paralyze II in full MND gear, your lucky to see it proc once for it's entire duration. And it'll never proc on a spell, nope para can't be allowed to stop that Meteor, Firaga IV or other high damage spell.

So anyway, let's come up with some ideas for new enfeebles could possibly be added, that behave differently from existing ones.

• For instance, how about an enfeeble that blocks an enemy's ability to restore HP (along the lines of the Zombie status effect)? If this is considered too strong, then perhaps a spell that blocks an enemy's ability to merely absorb HP might work. Very situational, but this is true of many spells in existence.

• Or perhaps an enfeeble that works like the opposite of subtle blow -- Enemy hits grant bonus TP to the player struck.

• Or how about a black magic enfeeble that works like a reverse-enspell? Physical attacks that strike an enfeebled mob deal extra elemental damage -- but the spell sticks on the mob, not the weapon (thus allowing alliance members and pets to benefit from dealing enspell-like damage).

A line of stat-down enfeebles similar to but significantly more potent then what BLMs get.

INT/STR/DEX-down
Defense Down
Evasion Down
Attack Down
Accuracy Down
Magic Attack Down
Magic Defense Down
Magic Evasion Down
Magic Accuracy Down

Inhibit TP (technical term for Store TP Down)
Plague (more then something stupid like 5tp/tick)

Line of "Break" spells that reduce a targeted resistance
Fire Break (Fire Resistance Down)
Ice Break (Ice Resistance Down)
ect..

And finally a form of DT down enfeeble that lowers a monsters damage reductions (though not under zero). This would be similar to WAR's Tomahawk effect.

That would be a good start. It would allow RDM to become a strategic tool for battles, enhancing the zergers or the PLD's holding monsters, ect..

Defense Down, Evasion Down an Attack Down refer to those actual status ailments not to Bio / Dia / Gravity which are separate ailments that just happen to have additional effects. The effect downs would overwrite each other (Defense Down / Evasion Down / Accuracy Down), the stat downs would do the same (Int Down / Str Down) as would the break spells. This allows much leeway to picking the best combo for any particular situation while allowing RDM to work with jobs already present.

I've been asking for these for a long time now, maybe SE will listen. I won't get my hopes up.

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Originally Posted by saevel

A line of stat-down enfeebles similar to but significantly more potent then what BLMs get.

INT/STR/DEX-down
Defense Down
Evasion Down
Attack Down
Accuracy Down
Magic Attack Down
Magic Defense Down
Magic Evasion Down
Magic Accuracy Down

Inhibit TP (technical term for Store TP Down)
Plague (more then something stupid like 5tp/tick)

Line of "Break" spells that reduce a targeted resistance
Fire Break (Fire Resistance Down)
Ice Break (Ice Resistance Down)
ect..

And finally a form of DT down enfeeble that lowers a monsters damage reductions (though not under zero). This would be similar to WAR's Tomahawk effect.

That would be a good start. It would allow RDM to become a strategic tool for battles, enhancing the zergers or the PLD's holding monsters, ect..

Defense Down, Evasion Down an Attack Down refer to those actual status ailments not to Bio / Dia / Gravity which are separate ailments that just happen to have additional effects. The effect downs would overwrite each other (Defense Down / Evasion Down / Accuracy Down), the stat downs would do the same (Int Down / Str Down) as would the break spells. This allows much leeway to picking the best combo for any particular situation while allowing RDM to work with jobs already present.

I've been asking for these for a long time now, maybe SE will listen. I won't get my hopes up.

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SE Rep response: We are giving those to geo, silly rdm.

Don't lie, you know as soon as you finished reading his post you thought that. Just further showing how rdm will never return to the position it was at prior. The only way this would work out is if the resist-break system was tunneled into a passive trait that only rdm gets at 50+ in up to 3 tiers worth of potency. Congratulations SE on making another blanket attempt to fix something that needs to be more narrow in the form of a fine tuning.

Wow, I'm actually surprised they took the enfeebling skill requirement into consideration...but I think we need to realize a couple of things right now:

1. We need to take this as a building block to expand upon RDM's enfeebling effectiveness in the future if RDM does get new and unique spells. Let's not put RDM in the coffin just yet. Keep throwing out enfeebling ideas that will make the job useful for debuffing until they're considered, but let's make sure SE doesn't drizzle them with high resistance rates either.

Also, why shouldn't RDM need Enfeebling merits to get ahead in the immunobreak system? I have them merited even though I don't play RDM much anymore, because it tends to save my ass oftentimes in out-of-control situations on other jobs like my DRK. I mean, sure in a zerg or a balanced party that guarantees no screw-ups won't need RDM enfeebling, but in the case that some oh-s#*% moment happens, it's nice to have it as a trick up your sleeve, especially one that RDM can break through resistances with.

2. GEO Enfeebling from Luopan will stack with White/Black Magic Enfeebling. inb4peoplesayit'llbeirrelevant

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

2. GEO Enfeebling from Luopan will stack with White/Black Magic Enfeebling. inb4peoplesayit'llbeirrelevant

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Some PPL have been blind to that fact for some reason ^^

But yea, the fix is sounding good. Just new some new unique enfeeble's to top it off.

What I said had nothing to do with it not stacking with white/black enfeebles. Just that most of saveal's suggestions are already going to be in geo's bag of tricks from what was announced about the job during vanafest. Meaning they wouldn't be giving it to rdm since it would then compromise the uniqueness of geo before it was even introduced to the game. There is still a vast choice of spells that the MMO hasn't touched on that are in other FF titles, but whether or not SE can add these in a "balanced" way is another thing entirely.

When I talk about rdm's place in a group again I mean being able to not just land spells, but have a much higher potency behind them than other jobs could since blm or whm had to wear more +skill gear over +int/mnd gear to land because of significantly lower skill rating in enfeebling. Rdm now has a great deal of gear that adds to accuracy and potency on the same pieces, but the spells are nigh useless to cast due to immunities or the build of the mob that you would want to cast them on. By this I mean high amount of stp/regain to spam tp moves.

We also have pieces that augment composure to increase duration of buffs, but a good deal of our newer desirable buffs are self target only and un-accessionable (meaning we are the prime benefactors of enhanced composure duration outside of a small pool of buffs every other job can give). This leaves me confused and unsure what direction SE has for Rdm, but currently with how game plays out it isn't looking like a highly desirable job within current endgame without some re-tinkering of the rdm spell list, possible spell additions and merit adjustments that would make the spells more worth while to use. As a person who enjoyed rdm for what it was, that is a bit frustrating....more so when you see a blanket fix to the problem that.....doesn't really fix the problem at all.

Anyone find it funny that this system doesn't support Impact at all? Pretty much the best stat debuff in the game, completely unaffected by enfeebling magic.

So what was the point of the enfeebling magic update if we still can't land sleep, break, silence, gravity on NMs?

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Originally Posted by Tptn937

So what was the point of the enfeebling magic update if we still can't land sleep, break, silence, gravity on NMs?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handwaving

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Originally Posted by tyrantsyn

Some PPL have been blind to that fact for some reason ^^

But yea, the fix is sounding good. Just new some new unique enfeeble's to top it off.

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Which is why they'll balance it by not giving RDM anymore unique enfeebles.

The fact of the matter is, Geo will get unique, un-resisted enfeebles, that while yes will stack no other job will get similar ones for them to stack.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Also, one of the aims is to make Red Mage’s enfeebling spells much more useful, and as a result of exploring this we decided to make it so that the immunobreak system is only for enfeebling magic skill.

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1. Is Immunobreak available to jobs without Enfeebling Magic Skill that sub RDM?
2. Does actual enfeebling magic skill play a role in the amount of immunobreak gained for resisting?
3. Will RDM get (unique) traits to boost immunobreak chance/amount?

Okay, when I said make it enfeebling-magic based, I didn't mean the immunobreak should easily work in the low 400's, so that every fucking jack and jill mage job could fucking debuff anything worth a damn. This was to help Red Mages, remember?

There is seriously no going back to to playing Red Mage for endgame purposes if SE doesn't put any unique, useful and worthwhile spells out soon, as well as make any NMs worth using enfeebling on. OR! SE could make it tougher to immunobreak so RDMs have an incentive to have the end-all be all top number debuffing skill required to immunobreak.

I swear to god, I'm just tempted to learn how to program SE's new mechanics myself and help them get the right idea across. >.>

Please let the amount of resistance lowered through Immunobreak be dependent on high enfeebling magic skill and, to a lesser extent, INT/MND, and give Red Mage a Job Trait that increases their likelihood of causing an Immunobreak.

Furthermore, I'd like to see one or two things added to Saboteur; perhaps "If the target has suffered an Immunobreak, the magic accuracy of the next enfeebling magic spell cast will be increased drastically," and/or "If the next enfeebling magic spell is resisted, the target will suffer a severe Immunobreak."

These changes would help Red Mage truly take advantage of Immunobreak more than any other job.

Greetings!

We received some feedback that enfeebling effects such as slow and paralyze have seemingly been ineffective for certain boss monsters whose normal attacks are AoE attacks. In order to bring out the full potential of enfeebling magic effects we would like to address this phenomenon. To start with we will be making adjustments during next week’s version update so that paralyze and killer effects are elicited.

In regards to slow, we are still looking into this and need a bit more time due to the fact that the processes involving it are more complex.

so it sounds like what you're saying is that paralyze and killer effects will be able to prevent WS like tp moves from being executed... ?

So long as it applies ONLY to said monsters "whose normal attacks are AoE attacks," awesome! Keep up the good work!

Inb4 they accidentally make this affect player WS too and then don't fix it for 2 years.

Their talking about how Ironclads and other monsters don't have regular attack rounds and instead their "aoe regular attacks" are job abilities. Previously Paralyze / Slow would do jack sh!t to those monsters, now Paralyze can proc on those aoe regular attacks though they don't have a mechanism to implement slow.