[dev1047] Thoughts/Feedback on "Legion"

Legion.. Last Stand... whatever they want to call it, kinda seems/smells like old school Dynamis. Rent a zone for said time frame farm farm farm.

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Originally Posted by Camate

The reward system for Legion is separated into the lotting system and trading for legion points. Trading for legion points is more similar to the individual reward system that you bring up.

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Think Camate should clear this part up before some one blows this up to something its not.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Think Camate should clear this part up before some one blows this up to something its not.

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What is there to clear up?

You get items from mobs that drop in the pool, then you get legion points that you can spend on items for yourself. It's pretty clear to me.

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Originally Posted by Fusionx

What is there to clear up?

You get items from mobs that drop in the pool, then you get legion points that you can spend on items for yourself. It's pretty clear to me.

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Have you not read what some here take out of context.

It'll likely work just like Einherjar with all boss mobs instead of trash pulls, which respawn until your time runs out, and those boss mobs can decent grade or high grade loot while you can trade in your credits for items similar to ampoule items. I'm personally looking forward to it, Einherjar was one of the best events ever put into FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

It'll likely work just like Einherjar with all boss mobs instead of trash pulls, which respawn until your time runs out, and those boss mobs can decent grade or high grade loot while you can trade in your credits for items similar to ampoule items. I'm personally looking forward to it, Einherjar was one of the best events ever put into FFXI.

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Think the problem is some people have never done Einherjar, and this is just Einherjar 2.0

You may not get a certain item drop from a mob your first run, but you'll be earning points to spend on other cool items. most of the ones from Einherjar were rings, wouldn't surprise me if Legion items were just better versions of them. Earing, rings, and afew other odd items maybe a weapon or two.

the items you got from Einherjar points weren't the best piece of gear, but they were still pretty good. and all it takes is afew runs to get them.

Here is a question I haven't seen asked yet. Will there be a cool down period between runs? Like with old Dynamis or current Einherjar. And if so, how long will that cool down period be?

I hope they add another DD earring, lot of jobs are stuck using weird stuff.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

There's nothing wrong with individual rewards, and there's nothing wrong with the drop rates, the problem lies in the distribution of the loot that drops. You could get 3 bodies in one run, but if all three of those bodies go to the same person...

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And that's precisely it. Until SE learns to quit dodging that issue, individual drops will be a bad idea.

i hope dis brings back old linkshells where we all cater to our leaders. i feel dat brought about the sense of community, tanaka-sans new vision for legion should b one where we all work together to complete members items one at a time.

No, that's a horrible idea... Simply because only 1 person will be seeing progression while the others are grumbling and scheming on how to be the next person to be focused on(especially if it's going to need to have a huge amount of players).

Einherjar was wonderful and it should be similar to that. If not, we're all going to be terribly disappointed

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

People on the test server (using smaller than the minimum required group, like 5 people or so) have reported being able to kill some of the monsters.

Mind you, these are NM-like mobs. It's not like you're fighting a jillion trash mobs as in dynamis or something. It's not going to be a walk in the park if you go with a small gorup, because you'll be in big trouble if you link/aggro mobs. But I imagine people will be able to do well enough with a less-than-full alliance.

Camate; i think the most number of people anyone wants to do anything with anymore is one alliance. This should be built for 6-18 people, not 18-36. nyzul Isle is for 3-6; i think the former is considered "large group" and the latter "small group" by player standards.

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This assumption is wrong. There are people who want to do events with more than one alliance. In any event, I believe it was stated the difficulty scales depending on whether you enter with one alliance or two. So essentially, it IS built for 6-18 people, and also built for 18-36 if you have that.

Howdy!

Based on all the feedback we have been receiving I just wanted to address some of the issues regarding preparation for this content and the required number of players.
　
Changes to the steps leading up to the battle

Currently, players will be automatically transported to the battlefield to begin the battle 5 minutes after the Legion pass is issued. However, in order to avoid players being forced to begin the battle before they are fully prepared, we will adjust this feature so that players are only transported to the battlefield once they have chosen to begin the battle. This change will be reflected during the next test server update.
　
　
Number of participants and battle difficulty

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It was said that “based on your circumstance, please try this battle with either 18 or 36 players.”
This suggests that you can only select from 2 difficulty levels.

As such, it will be difficult to succeed unless there are exactly 18 or 36 players.

My point is that if there are 19 players, the 18 player option is unavailable, so the 36 player option must be chosen. However, it would be difficult to complete content with difficulty set for 36 players with only 19 players.

I would like the difficulty set for each number of participating players between 18 and 36, for example if there are 19 players participating, the difficulty should be set for 19 players.

If there are only 2 difficulty levels, I am afraid that the content can only be enjoyed with exactly 18 or 36 players, which would make it difficult to casually gather players to try this content.

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The biggest difference between selecting 18 players or 36 players is the difference in the number of Legion passes issued. The strength of the monsters is adjusted based on the number of players participating, but the number and types of monsters that appear are unaffected.

The point of legion is not to “complete” the battle, but to see how many monsters can be defeated in the given time. As such, the difference caused by changing the number of participating players is that the number of monsters defeated (≒number of loot items) will change. There will be no inconvenience in game-play due to a lack of participating players.

With that said, there is a significant difference in battle capabilities between 10 players and 30 players, which is why we decided to prepare 2 versions of the battle. As a result, having fewer players is not a disadvantage and having many players is not an advantage.

We would like to continue to answer your questions and suggestions, so please continue to give your feedback.

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This assumption is wrong. There are people who want to do events with more than one alliance. In any event, I believe it was stated the difficulty scales depending on whether you enter with one alliance or two. So essentially, it IS built for 6-18 people, and also built for 18-36 if you have that.

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Really? I don't know anybody who's excited about the idea of needing at least a full alliance to get anything good from this.
The assumption is accurate. Just replace the implied "all" with "most" if it makes you happy.

Also, the difficulty only scales up over 18 people. It doesn't scale down below 18 people. You enter with 6, it's still designed for 18.

there needs to be a third option for 12 or somthing less than 18 people because I fear it will be difficult to participate in this with

Also of concern is that a "Kill as much stuff as fast as you can" event is going to exclude all but the most top tier DDs and support classes for them. Just how well do you have to perform to be rewarded in a worthwhile way?

plz keep in mind Tanaka-san's vision for this event, Alhanelem. we hope to have this event where big ls will participate and work for the leader or designated member one at a time. this is the true spirit of ffxi and tanaka-sans vision

^
I don't think this is going to end well.

I already like this troll.

Guys impersonating a SE employee, why hasn't he been banned.

finally, an event that's like old Dynamis! armies of players, difficult opponents, no stupid !! proc systems, and (apparently) desireable rewards! I be happy as a clam. You even fixed the stupidest issue of Old Dynamis... that only 1 group could go to the zone, but without making people fight over mobs.

Now the only issue i'll have is the same one I always did in Old Dynamis. As a Bard I always had to scream about Target control to the alliance, they would ignore it and I got to ask a whm for a raise, seeing as how I'm usually the main sleeper (ain't much resists light-based sleep). Least getting XP now is such a joke I can afford the deaths.

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Originally Posted by Camate

The point of legion is not to “complete” the battle, but to see how many monsters can be defeated in the given time. As such, the difference caused by changing the number of participating players is that the number of monsters defeated (≒number of loot items) will change. There will be no inconvenience in game-play due to a lack of participating players.

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So its more like The Swarm.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Guys impersonating a SE employee, why hasn't he been banned.

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i'm sry u must b confused? maybe my comment stating "we", i mean't we, the players ^^. I am just a big fan of Tanaka-san, plz don't confuse this

What i want to know is how Many groups can go in Legion at the same time, and how often you can do it.

Is Legion update going to be like alot of the others, where everyone rushs to try it and it gets overwhelmed, kicking groups out or causing massive connection problems. making them close Legion down after 1 hour to fix everything.

is it only going to be 1 group per room and 1/2 the server is going to be waiting outside spamming the NPC for 10 hours trying to get inside.

once per day after jp midnight? every 3 days like dynamis used to be and Limbus still is. or as long as you have gil you have a way inside

I am glad to FINALLY see something with an Einherjar-esque reward-system (Therion Ichor).
There should be more things that reward everyone no matter what, and what's most important, equally (hoping so any ways).

I don't think I will be participating in Legion (as named at the time of typing, formerly The Last Stand) due to the amount of player-characters required, and the high entry cost.
Obviously it is not that high for a group of 18-36 characters, but as many others, I doubt it will be easy to gather such groups unless there is something that everyone can reasonably get out of it.
The cost is no doubt to help prevent players from doing this 'too much', and there will likely be a time limit on re-entry because of 'congestion', and I'm sure 'time-sink' is a part of it, too, to keep players playing longer and so forth.

Many will say it's as lazy as 'new' content can get.
It may bee, but if they do this right, it might be fun (like so many other things could be, but... right).
I may try it for fun with a few friends, if we're able to enter, but I don't see myself really spending time with anything like this these days...

Good luck, I guess~

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Really? I don't know anybody who's excited about the idea of needing at least a full alliance to get anything good from this.
The assumption is accurate. Just replace the implied "all" with "most" if it makes you happy.

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Perhaps you don't know anybody personally, but people in this thread have already expressed their excitement. So now you know.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Also, the difficulty only scales up over 18 people. It doesn't scale down below 18 people. You enter with 6, it's still designed for 18.

there needs to be a third option for 12 or somthing less than 18 people because I fear it will be difficult to participate in this with

Also of concern is that a "Kill as much stuff as fast as you can" event is going to exclude all but the most top tier DDs and support classes for them. Just how well do you have to perform to be rewarded in a worthwhile way?

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It doesn't scale down below 18, but people on the test server have already reported being able to clear mobs with much fewer than 18. And since this is point system content, I imagine an ally of 12 can still walk out with some Legion points for their efforts. Time will tell.

Starting to sound like Horde mode from GOW or Zombie's from COD. I guess that could be really cool if it's done right.

I have hopes that I know will be shattered by SE and the Fuktards who think they should "Tweek" this Idea. A Serious group of players go in, and Kill as many mobs as they can, and Get great rewards that Not everyone can. They Spam this event as often as they can until everyone gets there Items and They move on.
Sadly this probably will not be the case, since SE likes to modify decent plans to Give everyone a random chance to get something so even if you happen to clear the whole event, you may get only a Log or ingot that NPC's for 1-5k GL all

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Originally Posted by Manicora

I have hopes that I know will be shattered by SE and the Fuktards who think they should "Tweek" this Idea. A Serious group of players go in, and Kill as many mobs as they can, and Get great rewards that Not everyone can. They Spam this event as often as they can until everyone gets there Items and They move on.
Sadly this probably will not be the case, since SE likes to modify decent plans to Give everyone a random chance to get something so even if you happen to clear the whole event, you may get only a Log or ingot that NPC's for 1-5k GL all

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thats why there is a Point system. each kill gives you X amount of points, you then spend those on the items you want.

if you did einherjar you'd see exactly where this is going, the mobs will drop maybe 2-3 gear sets (Einherjar had abj.) but most of the stuff was from the point system.

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Perhaps you don't know anybody personally, but people in this thread have already expressed their excitement.

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People in this thread have also expressed their disdain and/or concern, so I fail to see your point. pointing out that one or more people in this thread like the idea of the event before having participated in it is not a scientific means of gauging interest. I'd wager a majority (meaning at least 51%) of FFXI players don't even read these forums, much less post.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

People in this thread have also expressed their disdain and/or concern, so I fail to see your point. pointing out that one or more people in this thread like the idea of the event before having participated in it is not a scientific means of gauging interest. I'd wager a majority (meaning at least 51%) of FFXI players don't even read these forums, much less post.

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only 2 or 3 people in my LS would read the forum, want to say 8 didn't know about them. rest don't go cause they thiink that either the info is not worth learning, or they think its pointless cause no one's voice gets heard

I have returned yet again to share some additional responses to feedback in regards to the new Legion content.

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Are there essentially only 2 (for 18 or 36 players) difficulty levels?
Does this mean that it would be very difficult to attempt the battle for 36 players with only 19 players?
Would it be possible to set the battle for 18 players at the easiest setting and gradually increase the difficulty for each additional player participating? I think that would be more enjoyable for the players.

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I think it would be best to set the lowest difficulty setting for the minimum possible number of participating players and gradually increase the difficulty for each additional player participating.

I understand that adjusting the balance would probably be difficult, but it would be great if difficulty settings for 6, 12, 18, 24, 30 and 36 players can be prepared.

In order to prevent all players from participating in this content with a 6 player party, a bonus that increases with the number of players participating can be implemented.

A special point system can be implemented, in which more bonus points are awarded when more players are participating.

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The difficulty for the 36 player version will not be twice as difficult as the 18 player version. The difference will not be large enough to cause a significant disadvantage.

In terms of efficiency, it would definitely be more efficient to participate with exactly 18 or 36 players, but it is still possible to participate in this content with fewer players, although efficiency would be sacrificed. In other words, it is not necessary to gather 36 players, and the difficulty settings will be set so that it is still possible to complete this content with 19 players.
　
Differences in battle strength will not affect the strength of the monsters, but instead will affect the number of monsters the party is able to defeat.

The fact that legion content is not based on completion/fail basis is the biggest difference from usual battlefields. If the enemies’ strength is changed linearly with the number of players participating, parties of 19 or 36 players would be able to defeat the same number of monsters. This would greatly alter the foundation of this content, including how loot is distributed.

Finally, the minimum number of players necessary to participate in this content is intentionally set lower than the number of players necessary to effectively participate in this content. This is because we do not want to set system limitations so that players are unable to creatively take on a very difficult challenge. I think it would be fun for players to attempt challenges such as trying to defeat only one monster with a very small party.

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I apologize if this question has been asked before.

What will happen to the items in the loot pool once 30 minutes are up?
If the loot is placed at the entrance after the battle, as was the case with Limbus, the loot will remain in the loot pool, which gives players about 5 minutes to distribute the loot.
From what I can tell, it seems like players will be sent out to Sauromugue after the battle.

Actually, I was trying to test this out while soloing and failed miserably. I got demolished by turtles, snakes and wyrms... lol

This content is a continuous battle against monsters, so I’m sure there will be occasions where a monster is defeated right before time is up. I would be very disappointed if these efforts are for naught, so I would like to know how the time limit and loot distribution will actually work.

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There is no need to worry. In order for players to be able to enjoy the battle right until the end, we will prepare time, which is separate from the time limit, for players to distribute loot. To be specific, once the time limit is up, players will be transferred to the lobby area, where they will have 5 minutes to lot on loot.

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Since it seems like items are distributed through the lotting system, is this a good representation of the loot system in legion?

Less players
Pros: Less lotting competition (If 6 players are going after 1 item, there is a 16% chance of obtaining the item)
Cons: Less monsters defeated (less item drops), More responsibility for players during the battle
More players
Pros: More monsters defeated (more item drops), Less responsibility for players during the battle
Cons: More lotting competition (If 36 players are going after 1 item, there is a 2% chance of obtaining the item)

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With regard to loot, players can obtain loot either through trading Legion points or through the lotting system. If a lot of monsters are defeated by many players, there will be more loot dropped, which means there are more chances to obtain loot. Even if a player fails to obtain an item through lotting, that player accumulates Legion points with each run, which will allow the player to possibly trade for the item. With more players, there certainly is more competition when lotting on an item, but considering that there are more loot items dropped, the probability of obtaining an item will not drop as severely as you mentioned.

This is really looking like from the description the event I have been waiting for. With the loot and point system should make it a lot of fun and can work towards the items I want. Now I just hope the gear, items that are dropped are worthwhile.

How are legion points handled though? More monsters killed means more points? Also how does the difficulty affect the points obtained? This would be a pretty big selling point of whether or not to go with 18, 19 or 36 people (19 because of less competition of drops, but possible higher legion points awarded per kill.)

If I'm understanding this correctly, every participant in the battle zone gets Legion Points on a per-kill basis.

I doubt the amount of points per kill are changed based on the number of people present, as this would create a static relation between the number of players present and the amount of points accrued per run. 36 member groups will likely obtain more points per person than 18 member groups because they will kill more monsters. This encourages large group play for points while still maintaining an equitable distribution of items in the actual treasure pool.

Legion is golden. As long as the implementation is solid, I don't see how they can go wrong with this event.

Based on Camate's responses, it seems that the # of monsters killed = amount of legion points you get. It doesn't seem to be divided among the number of people at the event, so a 36 person run would grant you more legion points than an 18 person run. As he already pointed out as well, the difficult of the monsters does not change. The only thing that changes is the amount of monsters.

The treasure system sounds great actually, giving both a random chance at loot while offering players the ability to get that loot over a longer period of time through points - pretty much what players have been asking for a while now.

Thanks for all the news this week Camate.

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Originally Posted by Camate

I have returned yet again to share some additional responses to feedback in regards to the new Legion content.




The difficulty for the 36 player version will not be twice as difficult as the 18 player version. The difference will not be large enough to cause a significant disadvantage.

In terms of efficiency, it would definitely be more efficient to participate with exactly 18 or 36 players, but it is still possible to participate in this content with fewer players, although efficiency would be sacrificed. In other words, it is not necessary to gather 36 players, and the difficulty settings will be set so that it is still possible to complete this content with 19 players.
　
Differences in battle strength will not affect the strength of the monsters, but instead will affect the number of monsters the party is able to defeat.

The fact that legion content is not based on completion/fail basis is the biggest difference from usual battlefields. If the enemies’ strength is changed linearly with the number of players participating, parties of 19 or 36 players would be able to defeat the same number of monsters. This would greatly alter the foundation of this content, including how loot is distributed.

Finally, the minimum number of players necessary to participate in this content is intentionally set lower than the number of players necessary to effectively participate in this content. This is because we do not want to set system limitations so that players are unable to creatively take on a very difficult challenge. I think it would be fun for players to attempt challenges such as trying to defeat only one monster with a very small party.


There is no need to worry. In order for players to be able to enjoy the battle right until the end, we will prepare time, which is separate from the time limit, for players to distribute loot. To be specific, once the time limit is up, players will be transferred to the lobby area, where they will have 5 minutes to lot on loot.



With regard to loot, players can obtain loot either through trading Legion points or through the lotting system. If a lot of monsters are defeated by many players, there will be more loot dropped, which means there are more chances to obtain loot. Even if a player fails to obtain an item through lotting, that player accumulates Legion points with each run, which will allow the player to possibly trade for the item. With more players, there certainly is more competition when lotting on an item, but considering that there are more loot items dropped, the probability of obtaining an item will not drop as severely as you mentioned.

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Why is the Dev Team so in love with large-group activities? I don't even know 36 other people who play this game anymore, and I don't want to recruit a bunch of people into a linkshell or quit my LS which has been my home for nearly 7 years just so I can join a large LS where the Leader and his friends will magically have the points to have sole lotting rights to every piece of gear. This game it too old to support large-group events anymore.

still want points handled a bit more like Campaign/Balista XP, on a contribution basis. i.e. no work=no points. As I've said numerous times I HATE leeches. If all a player is gonna do is take up space while I have to do their job AND mine in a pt/alliance then I should be getting their reward as well as mine. Otherwise, looks VERY good.

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Originally Posted by Zubis

The treasure system sounds great actually, giving both a random chance at loot while offering players the ability to get that loot over a longer period of time through points - pretty much what players have been asking for a while now.

Thanks for all the news this week Camate.

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Well I'm going to hold my opinion on loot until I see what the point buys are vs the drops. If the drops are nice but the point buys are like Assault, then yeah it'll end up being crap. But if the point buys are actually good gear, then I'll be cheering.

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Originally Posted by Camate

With regard to loot, players can obtain loot either through trading Legion points or through the lotting system. If a lot of monsters are defeated by many players, there will be more loot dropped, which means there are more chances to obtain loot. Even if a player fails to obtain an item through lotting, that player accumulates Legion points with each run, which will allow the player to possibly trade for the item. With more players, there certainly is more competition when lotting on an item, but considering that there are more loot items dropped, the probability of obtaining an item will not drop as severely as you mentioned.

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Wait are you telling us every Item that drops can be bought with points too? Please tell me there are atleast some items that are only drops or points

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If I'm understanding this correctly, every participant in the battle zone gets Legion Points on a per-kill basis.

I doubt the amount of points per kill are changed based on the number of people present, as this would create a static relation between the number of players present and the amount of points accrued per run. 36 member groups will likely obtain more points per person than 18 member groups because they will kill more monsters. This encourages large group play for points while still maintaining an equitable distribution of items in the actual treasure pool.

Legion is golden. As long as the implementation is solid, I don't see how they can go wrong with this event.

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When I see the loot I'll review it. Also, whats the cooldown?

It wouldn't be the first time SE implements something that sounds good on paper that then fails because the loot is so situational that the base doesn't take to the system.