Anyone actually gotten Gravity II, yet?

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Originally Posted by saevel

Many things have been communicated in the past and either haven't happened yet or were altered. Seeing as there have been no changes on the test server, we're looking at potentially 3~6 months before any changes to enfeebling magic happens.

The Dev's didn't even acknowledge that Sab and Dia III don't work right together. Only the duration on the Dia line is extended, the effect is unaltered. I reported this as both a bug and here on this forum and nothing's been said from the Devs.

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It's not a bug... They changed it so that Dia is not affected by saboteur right after it was released--probably why they haven't responded to you.

Probably because Dia III is already kind of powerful in that it's Defense-15% on demand which can be pretty potent since you can cast it basically whenever, and doubling its potency with Saboteur would be quite powerful, though I think you can enhance its potency with Light Shot however. Or maybe Light Shot increased its duration, probably need to test it.

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Originally Posted by Camate

While this was communicated in the past, as a general direction for enfeebling magic adjustments as a whole (not limiting it to Gravity only), the development team is planning to make adjustments so it is more difficult for NMs and other high-level monsters to resist these spells.

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While I'm truly grateful for the reply, that doesn't fix the immunity problem.

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Originally Posted by Camate

While this was communicated in the past, as a general direction for enfeebling magic adjustments as a whole (not limiting it to Gravity only), the development team is planning to make adjustments so it is more difficult for NMs and other high-level monsters to resist these spells.

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That's good. There are enough Useless Useful Spells
in the single player FFs. Having at least one game where they actually are useful would be nice...

There are plenty of ways you can limit the over-use of powerful enfeebling magic without simply making every monster immune to every enfeeble spell and thereby eliminating red mage's and any other job's enfeebling capabilities from usefulness.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Does it work with Dia II? If so is the defense down with Sabo+Dia II>Dia III? Maybe it's for balance purposes?

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If you're curious, it's easy to test. I wrote out the methodology I used to test for Dia 3 in a couple threads here at least.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

While I'm truly grateful for the reply, that doesn't fix the immunity problem.

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Well they did say resist.... Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but they probably think of them as the same.

Would it be possible to get some clarification just in case? Will this adjustment to enfeebling magic affect spells which currently cannot land on notorious monsters at all, not even with Elemental Seal?

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Well they did say resist.... Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but they probably think of them as the same.

Would it be possible to get some clarification just in case? Will this adjustment to enfeebling magic affect spells which currently cannot land on notorious monsters at all, not even with Elemental Seal?

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I'm pretty sure that is the question of the hour. Well stated.

Ya the issue isn't with them landing really, they can land fine for the most part (at least the big ones) the issue with them is their effect is almost meaningless. Why with the TP spam, or certain NM's avoiding them all together because their moves are considered TP moves, the list of issues with enfeebles being useless goes on and on and on.

Then there is our merit spells, a luzly bunch they are. the difference between a Slow II 1/5 and a slow II 5/5 is all of .2 seconds on an average mobs attack rate. Hardly worth the crap ton of merits. Does anyone even have Blind II? Well outside of procing purposes (so I guess before VW did anyone even have Blind II?). The worst part of it all is the T1 versions of all of our T2 merits are all better in terms of duration/mana efficiency, and damn close in terms of effect/mana efficiency. Unless you take them to 5/5 which you can't do with every spell. That is a pretty big issue, prior to abyssea the amount of time we had to spend getting spells that are slightly upgraded versions of spells we already had, and only being able to make 2-3 be of any worth. Time sink of merits. Hours and hours of killing pink birds, and lizard men, for spells that now are essentially useless.

The other issue with enfeebling is that RDM is the highest natural enfeebler, whose only true native enfeeble is resisted by everything under the sun unless we are chilling in some pre ToAU content. All because back in the day a few people who had exceptional skill and tolerance for kiting a mob around and tickling to death for hours, and because a few BLM's and RDM's got a BRD and learned how to manaburn for EXP, while everyone else was out Arrow Burning. I can understand at the time it was a good idea...but then you went and made Colibri and removed BLM's and Nuking RDM's from the EXP scene, but also kept the restrictive nature of the Bind/Gravity Nerf.

But that is only have of it. Now many jobs are soloing content, RDM's, BST's, PUP's, SMN's, BLU's, BLM's, SCH's, PLD's, THF's, NIN's, DNC's, DRGs.(im sure I am missing a few). Now each of these jobs has a kind of different means to do it. Except RDM and its weaker nukes, and weaker DD. RDM is supposed to buff and cripple mobs in order to gain that upper hand. Why can a DNC or THF or NIN benefit from their awesome evasion, NINs enfeebles, DNC's heals, why can all those jobs tools work, and not RDM's? Our skill set is designed to buff and debuff, and we can not do either really (which is another argument entirely.)

Gravity and Bind are our distance maker spells, it allows us to make up the damage difference of T5's by being able to cast 2 quick nukes before the mob closes on us. Bind should be a spell available to all who can cast it, it is how we keep ourselves away from a mobs deadly melee strikes as nukers. (the break on DMG is fine but it needs to be able to land.) That these spells are completely removed is why you hear and see of people pinning a mob on a fence or trapping an Iron Giant on a cliff (which you fixed! and still overlooked the reason why it was done!).

What you have now is a dozen jobs all of soloing stuff, using their unique abilities, yet RDM's unique abilities work on very few targets, they are crap merits that should be scrolls, and the whole skill set of RDM "being a buff/debuff not great at anything but using these tools can make it pretty good at a lot of things" kind of non existent. Half our primary casting skill set is useless, the other half at least has 2 spells that are any good in a group, and our secondary stuff (melee/nuking/healing) is all over the place with it being bad - good - ugly.

Its not just enfeebling, you have a job that has been neglected any attention to actual issues since 2004. You keep throwing things that don't help or hinder at all. You give us Dagger Weaponskills with no Daggers, you give us New buffs we can only use on ourselves, you give us new enfeebles that don't work, you give us old nukes that work fine. So on and so forth the list goes on and on and on.

This job needs massive attention, it has for nearly 8 years, just because it was the cats ass in ToAU doesn't mean it was good, it was practically useless outside of chainspell stun, a gimmick we need a specific subjob to use. (and I guess tanking but you nerfed that too!).

Figure the shit out SE because as much as id like to see enfeebling fixed, you got a lot of shit wrong with this job, and you need to get on it.

(wow good rant sorry)

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Its not just enfeebling, you have a job that has been neglected any attention to actual issues since 2004.

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Just to add to this.

Every time we as a player base have found a unique use for this job you have nerfed it, or buffed others to penalize it. Soloing...nerfed (revived by talented people with Crimson legs.) Tanking...nerfed (even though in your how to beat AV video you had a RDM/NIN tanking the damn HNM) Cure/Buff rotation...indirect buff (BRD SMN COR can all /RDM and provide essentially the same support while at the same time providing their unique support, and in some cases great damage).

Now I am done I think, at least until the next we are addressing your concerns spiel I've read since 2004.

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Originally Posted by Helel

It's not a bug... They changed it so that Dia is not affected by saboteur right after it was released--probably why they haven't responded to you.

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Wrong.

Saboteur never worked with the Dia line. All it ever did was extend the duration and possibly increased the DoT (lol). Shortly after release Foldypaws tested its effect and found it not working, he told me about this on Vent. Later when SE fixed it's effects with Gravity / Bio I thought they also made it work with Sab. Testing posted here on this forum proved that Dia III's effect does not work with Sab as FP previously demonstrated. Thus it's NEVER worked with Sab.

Bug reported, issue mentioned several times, once it a post directed to the devs for the CR's to translate. The absolute least they could of done is come back saying that they thought about it but decided against it for "barance" reasons. At least they would be acknowledging the issue rather then just blatantly ignoring us. The fact that Gravity II was created at all shows that they devs give absolutely no thought to the RDM job. They created a spell that is worthless, doesn't even have situational use.

Why not just make enemies susceptible to all forms of Enfeebling Magic, but only if you have very high Enfeebling Magic or with Elemental Seal? Make it to where a RDM with good skill and gear is able to land them. At the moment, about any job can land enfeebles onto a mob unless it's resistant. This kind of throws RDM off to me since it is supposed to be its specialty.

I'm not saying its DD capabilities couldn't be improved also. As stated, many jobs can solo content well now. RDM can still accomplish this, but it takes much longer. Enspells could be improved to up the damage. Perhaps a merit category added for upping the damage of Enspells in the future.

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Originally Posted by Vagrua

Why not just make enemies susceptible to all forms of Enfeebling Magic, but only if you have very high Enfeebling Magic or with Elemental Seal? Make it to where a RDM with good skill and gear is able to land them. At the moment, about any job can land enfeebles onto a mob unless it's resistant. This kind of throws RDM off to me since it is supposed to be its specialty.

I'm not saying its DD capabilities couldn't be improved also. As stated, many jobs can solo content well now. RDM can still accomplish this, but it takes much longer. Enspells could be improved to up the damage. Perhaps a merit category added for upping the damage of Enspells in the future.

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To your first point, it's a function of the magic accuracy formula. Resists are not a single check but a series of checks with an ever decreasing potency / duration (depending on spell). Anyone who receives a "resist" message more then 50% of the time (assuming capped skill) means that mob has ridiculous magic resistant to that enfeebled. It's easy to check resist rates, cast a bunch of elemental spells of the same element of the enfeeble (Blizzard for example). Note your elemental magic and write down the number of full / half / quarter resists. Cast an equal amount of the enfeeble (paralyze) write down your enfeebling magic and the number of resists / lands. If the number of resists is larger then the number of elemental half resists, then the monster has special resistance to that debuff effect that goes beyond it's normal elemental resistance. You see this ~A LOT~ with Paralyze. You have no problem landing full damage Blizzard IV's on something, they land for full damage more then 75% of the time. Your Paralyzes are constantly being resisted, and when they do land you never / rarely see a proc (indicating potency reduction). The monster has a 100~150+ magic resistance to that enfeeble on top of their C or higher rated elemental resistance.

To your second point, it really depends. I do Dynamis with 1~3 other friends often. Usually I'm with my duo partner who likes to go BLU/DNC and me go RDM/DNC. We both have 90 Almace and corresponding gear. I will do half of the damage, if not slightly more do to enspells and DC dynamis mobs having high defense for their level. Together we'll clear out entire camps on our own, camps of DC's not EPs. Once you scale up to higher / harder monsters then RDM drops down in damage potential, especially as the BLU can go /WAR with DWIII and berserk and really crank up their damage. We're solidly a mediocre DD job, capable of dealing significant damage but not in the same ballpark as a SAM / WAR / MNK / DRG / DRK or the aforementioned BLU/WAR. Biggest issue we have is no gear to scale up with, while those jobs (and the BLU) keep getting better and better gear. Temper really helps our melee potential, along with a 500 enhancing magic set for 30 damage enspells that don't get resisted often and +25 to our melee stat of choice.

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Originally Posted by Vagrua

Why not just make enemies susceptible to all forms of Enfeebling Magic, but only if you have very high Enfeebling Magic or with Elemental Seal? Make it to where a RDM with good skill and gear is able to land them. At the moment, about any job can land enfeebles onto a mob unless it's resistant. This kind of throws RDM off to me since it is supposed to be its specialty.

I'm not saying its DD capabilities couldn't be improved also. As stated, many jobs can solo content well now. RDM can still accomplish this, but it takes much longer. Enspells could be improved to up the damage. Perhaps a merit category added for upping the damage of Enspells in the future.

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Accuracy and Magic Accuracy both floor at 20%, is essentially what it comes down to. My Chi Mnk/Whm in 2004 could land Silence on Suzaku for the entire duration of his Chainspell as long as I spammed it enough to get it to land initially.

This means that essentially any job will be able to land any enfeeble they want on the monster if it's not immune by sheer virtue of spamming the 20% land rate until they get it. The way the current magic system works, it's not possible to distinctly say "Okay, anyone over 400 enfeebling skill can land on this but anyone under it can't".

Boggles the mind how they came up with some of this stuff in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Camate

While this was communicated in the past, as a general direction for enfeebling magic adjustments as a whole (not limiting it to Gravity only), the development team is planning to make adjustments so it is more difficult for NMs and other high-level monsters to resist these spells.

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Hard to believe this, Camate. We heard of these proposed changes almost a year ago and to date not much of anything has changed for the better on this. Unless you call bringing a rdm to VWNM on the chance you might need their Merited spells to proc a positive change? It's frustrating to see a job that was once wanted/desired for endgame be completely over looked now because of its very limited functional use.

So...thanks for more empty promises, but I'm not holding my breath....

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Originally Posted by Camate

While this was communicated in the past, as a general direction for enfeebling magic adjustments as a whole (not limiting it to Gravity only), the development team is planning to make adjustments so it is more difficult for NMs and other high-level monsters to resist these spells.

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I was a bit perplex when reading this last night, so I didn't want to really rush in before thinking about it. But this is what I believe I'm understanding about it. Basically If I can land the spell on a current mob now, than it will take longer in the future for it to build a resistance toward's it. So does this fix the over all immunity's that were seeing most of these end game NM's have? It doesn't sound like it. So it really doesn't sound like it solve's our current issue with gravity I or II.

Gravity immunity can be done away with, if such enemies would have a [movement speed down] potency reduction of 100% instead. On mobs that build resistance over time, this number would start at 0 and increase by x% every cast, slowly reducing over time.

It can still resist, but it would mundane magic resistance.

If that is the case they should just remove the -move speed from the spell itself and replace it with damage. Considering we don't have a demi line of spells, and have 2 spells that are useless why not change the names to Demi I and Demi II, can have them do T2 Elemental damage + EVA down, and T4 elemental damage + EVA down.

Taking a nerf to spell shouldn't be something we'd have to accept tho. And if we take this stance, than were just saying it's okay to do this type of thing in the future as well. Gravity should work the way it's intend. Since the level cap increase it's not RDM setting the standard's in the solo field. There's other job out there that are just as good at it and they don't have to spend half the time RDM does to get it done. In a time in FFXI history where good drops are control by proc'ing system's, limited battle field space's and a stronger emphasis on having a THF "and soon with legion, where killing speed will determine your drop rate's" there's no reason to still be beating RDM over the head with the Nerf stick.

I do like your Idea's on Demi Mage. It would be a nice unique end game spell for RDM to have.

movement speed down is kind of redundant in todays game anyway why with most NM's possessing movement speed +. Id rather have a unique damage/enfeeble spell than one that has highly limited use. We can solo most stuff now just by getting it stuck on a fence and nuking its face off, or barring that just straight meleeing it to death /BLU in a -pdt set.

Granted my DNC and BLM both solo far better then my RDM does, but my RDM allows me to go out and be prepared for both a pin/nuke, or melee.

Ahh yes the wonderful increase movement speed. That was a wonderful addition by SE. Pretty much made run for your life "Impossible to do"

I heard automatons COULD cast Gravity, but their AI rejects it for being pointless ;D

Found some use for gravity II the other day ago.

Used it twice to proc in dynamis :D