Melee while casting?

'SE' and 'easy solution' shouldn't be in the same sentance imo :/

Wow we are still talking about whether or not it can be done. There hasn't been any real discussion on melee solutions during casting in like 3 pages. Thanks for going off topic again GG and turning another RDM thread into a quagmire that isn't even focused on what we were talking about.

About to head out the door, but just a couple of things to comment on,

Firstly, I'm fairly sure that the actual spell casting time calculations and such are handled server-side at the start of the cast rather than client side or in real time. The cast time bar is just a graphical doodad which fills up at a rate specified by the spell's cast time in the .DATs (which is why it never adjusts based on fast cast, and instead you just see spells go off at 50% cast time) in the form of ([1/Cast time]*Pixel size of bar) pixels/second

This would also explain why you see the kind of lag that you do when spells are interrupted. Rather than sending a "Stop casting spell" command to the server in real time, I believe the server simply flips a boolean for "SpellInterrupted" to true whenever an attack/stun would interrupt casting. This boolean is then only checked when the game actually processes the end of the cast, at the same time that the server checks to ensure that the player's ending position is the same as the starting position.

You can see evidence of this in the way the server handles player movement while casting. As long as you end the cast in the same place that you start it, the cast will go through. This means that the client is most likely not sending any information to the server about casting status in real time, as then any movement would stop the casting of a spell.

This is also visible in the way the server handles gear swaps during casting. Casting time is calculated at the beginning of the spell, and potency is calculated at the end of the spell. Taking Fast Cast off in the middle of a spell won't change the rate at which you cast the rest of the spell.

These sorts of things are where I derive my server casting model from. Looking at that model, I'm not sure where I would inject a command to do anything about melee attacks. Overflow/queue errors can also become an issue in high-haste/low-delay scenarios. It's interesting to talk about (certainly much more interesting than normal red mage melee talk, I agree), I just think it would be extremely awkward to try and implement without redoing the system.

Edit: Mana. Shut up. This discussion is significantly more productive than half of the other threads in this forum combined. Rather than sitting off in fairy land where pissing and moaning equates to results, we're discussing how this might actually be implemented or jury-rigged into existence if they actually decided to take a look at it. I'd appreciate it if you kept your nose out of it if you aren't going to contribute in a meaningful way.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Wow we are still talking about whether or not it can be done. There hasn't been any real discussion on melee solutions during casting in like 3 pages. Thanks for going off topic again GG and turning another RDM thread into a quagmire that isn't even focused on what we were talking about.

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Well, if it can't be done then what's the point of discussing it? But since our discussion is going a bit off-topic, how about this to contribute:

Enhancing Spell:
RDM 45) Subtle Sword- Self-only, potent Subtle Blow effect.
RDM 70) Boost-ACC- Does this exist yet? If not, it would help.
RDM exclusive, self-enhancing spells like Temper are the road to melee RDM...sorry, but it's the most realistic way to make it happen.

*How powerful are En-Spells right now? This should be the road to RDM melee, so a boost is in order if they don't make it worthwhile (worthwhile is just enough to not be wasting your time).


Job Trait:
RDM 30) Manablade- Attacks occasionally regenerate MP while wielding a sword.
This would activate around 10% and the amount gained would scale with levels (ex. Manablade II at 70).

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

The cast time bar is just a graphical doodad which fills up at a rate specified by the spell's cast time in the .DATs (which is why it never adjusts based on fast cast, and instead you just see spells go off at 50% cast time) in the form of ([1/Cast time]*Pixel size of bar) pixels/second.

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I had no idea about this. It's interesting and disappointing at the same time!

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

This would also explain why you see the kind of lag that you do when spells are interrupted. Rather than sending a "Stop casting spell" command to the server in real time, I believe the server simply flips a boolean for "SpellInterrupted" to true whenever an attack/stun would interrupt casting. This boolean is then only checked when the game actually processes the end of the cast, at the same time that the server checks to ensure that the player's ending position is the same as the starting position.

You can see evidence of this in the way the server handles player movement while casting. As long as you end the cast in the same place that you start it, the cast will go through. This means that the client is most likely not sending any information to the server about casting status in real time, as then any movement would stop the casting of a spell.

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Apparently you have dug around in the workings of the game a lot more than I have (not at all), so I'm gonna change my original (very computer sciencey, out-of-the-ass estimation) assumption that there's a 35% chance of them being able to do this to around 10% and closer to your estimate, lol. I had no idea that the game calculates an interrupt this way (now that I think about it, they do tend to happen closer to perceived cast-time...I just didn't know that's how it worked), and I definitely agree that this makes it seem like no, they are not keeping track of casting time continuously (the the start, stop work-around would probably not be able to be applied). Super interesting stuff though, thanks for explaining. I like the Internet sometimes.

It will be a sad day when people like Guardian and Byrth and stuff stop posting. No one else takes the time to explain things, and when people finally do make them quit these forums from sever headdesk, these forums will become like an untended garden (ie full of weeds)

And the topic was about meleeing while casting, not about rdm melee options. Not a single post was off topic.

If you are now magically making the tread about rdm melee fixes, it doesnt need any. However, that "Manablade" idea above sounds actually pretty good!

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Originally Posted by Selzak

Guess I caught your arguments out of context because you were being irritated at the people you were replying to. That's a legitimate assumption (still, I just really think it's more guesswork than a given). Tossing a like for wrongly calling you out (my bad) and moving along now...

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We never said it was impossible, merely that currently the server side event engine isn't set up for it. Only one action is allowed to be active at any point in time. They could change that but it would require an overhaul of the servers event engine, something you do not do without lots and lots of time and effort. This isn't like changing something client side where the worst you gotta worry about is a PC crashing or people moving where they shouldn't be. If you screw something up in the event engine the server itself would crash, meaning lost data / loot / fights. Could be scrambled world database's forcing you to revert to the last backup. It also could mean really bad things randomly happening, like getting 10K gil at the end of a fight, except the action never completes and that it keeps giving you gil until your character becomes corrupted. Or the monster casts a spell and it keeps processing until you die, and possibly more until the server crash's.

As for the technical aspects, there is no magic in real life. We system engineers do what we do because certain design's tend to work better then other design's. Action based event engines have proven to be the most efficient method of resolving tens of thousands of independent actions per second by thousands of actors (technical name for players and monsters in a virtual world). Other methods tend to be crushed after 30ish players as their are simply too many things going on for the server's processors and memory to handle while being coherent, things will start lagging and your actions will be delayed a few seconds. That and if the client had ~any~ say whatsoever in what was going on, then you'd see TPP that would instantly win you every fight and get all the drops you wanted.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Edit: Mana. Shut up. This discussion is significantly more productive than half of the other threads in this forum combined. Rather than sitting off in fairy land where pissing and moaning equates to results, we're discussing how this might actually be implemented or jury-rigged into existence if they actually decided to take a look at it. I'd appreciate it if you kept your nose out of it if you aren't going to contribute in a meaningful way.

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Nice opinions as usual. Thanks for having opinions, expressing them while on the internet, believing you are actually capable of being right, and assume everyone that doesn't agree or think like you is wrong. I'm sorry you are rude and incapable of seeing that you are talking in nothing but opinions, but what i really don't understand is why you are on the RDM forums and posting about RDMs when you even admit you don't play it anymore. You don't even suggest ideas, you just sit on other people's discussions and act like you are a moderator or someone that is actually paid to be here. Stop being so condescending and actually suggest something or is being negative and getting in the way all you can do?

The obvious answers is obvious. You just build a condition on top of casting just like the devs did with Zanshin. If you don't realize why that is simple and would work you just don't really get programming. It's simple as pie and easy enough to implement that people could actually do it. The Devs are more than capable of doing this. The question is will they do it and is there anything that anyone can come up with other than gaining additional attacks that would benefit RDM more?

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Originally Posted by Selzak

Job Trait:
RDM 30) Manablade- Attacks occasionally regenerate MP while wielding a sword.
This would activate around 10% and the amount gained would scale with levels (ex. Manablade II at 70).

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Thank you, that is wonderful. If I had more mp to use while meleeing, I would be a happier RDM, especially outside of aby.

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Originally Posted by Selzak

Enhancing Spell:
RDM 45) Subtle Sword- Self-only, potent Subtle Blow effect.
RDM 70) Boost-ACC- Does this exist yet? If not, it would help.
RDM exclusive, self-enhancing spells like Temper are the road to melee RDM...sorry, but it's the most realistic way to make it happen.

*How powerful are En-Spells right now? This should be the road to RDM melee, so a boost is in order if they don't make it worthwhile (worthwhile is just enough to not be wasting your time).

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Enspell damage is still in bad shape. SE doesn't comment if we are actually getting Tier IIIs or merit upgrades at any point.

I would prefer if they consolidated subtle blow and acc+ on Temper. I don't care if I have to merit for it, it would be worth it for the convenience of just casting 1 spell.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

The Devs are more than capable of doing this.

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After surveying an internet's worth of images of people laughing, I've decided on this one.

http://disinfo-drop.s3.amazonaws.com/Joker.jpg

I feel it best conveys the underlying bitterness within the humor of the phrase "The Devs are more than capable of doing this." I am confident they could set out to make a Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwich and end up constructing two very sticky and biodegradable hats instead.

Although, you raise an interesting possibility with the mention of something like Zanshin. While it's not very probable the Development Bros could make it possible to melee while casting, a job trait that makes a character attempt one (or more) auto-attack round(s) if engaged when a spell is cast would probably be much easier to implement.

ITT: I don't know anything about programming. Kay.

Alright. I won't talk about any of my programming skills. But, let's have you stop talking about throwing conditions into a system that you don't understand. I'll give you a pseudo-code model that I believe is accurate, or extremely close to the one FFXI uses to process spell casting. You tell me where you'll "throw a condition", and what that condition is, and we'll see how this goes.

Kay? Kay.

Step 1: Client sends packet to server saying "Hey bitches, I'm firin' mah lazer"

>Server processes spell start request, confirms IsValidTarget, and checks player stats and spell stats to determine Casting Time, and records StartTime and StartPosition

>Spell Animation is told to start on the Client

>Server starts the conditional statement: (When CurrentTime = StartTime + CastingTime) and does nothing in the interim. No packets are sent to or from the Client in this time.

>Conditional statement is met. Server requests final stats from the Client. IsValidTarget and IsSpellInterrupted are checked. CurrentPosition is compared to StartPosition.

>If all of these checks pass, Player stats are read from the server and relevant effect calculations are run against Target stats. Effect is applied to relevant Objects.

>If any condition does not pass, player fails Spell Casting.

>Return.

You see, the biggest issue with trying to get the client to do something during casting is the fact that the client and server don't actually communicate while casting. Position data is updated in a separate module, so you can still move of course, but the combat module isn't actually receiving or sending any data to you.

Keep in mind that you're also limited from excessively increasing server traffic, as this could have profoundly negative effects especially for users living in a non-ideal DNS range (eg, about half of the EU, Australia, etc). The current system is built the way it is to minimize the dependence on constant communication in order to make a more pleasant/streamlined experience for all users.

Good luck.

Wow nice and bitter as usual GG. I'm not trying to upset you, I just wanted you to realize you are leaving discussions open only to yourself.

This is an actual discussion and I thank you for it. Instead of you saying I see nothing but problems and no one can fix them, you say these are the problem and I don't see a fix for what we are talking about. For me, the fix is we adjust the way in which something would be implemented but keep the same idea. You can shoot down what I say next and I won't care, so long we keep moving on to the next generations of ideas.

If it would really cause that much additional server traffic than instead of having to do a conditional you just cause casting on RDMs to add a buff that gives them a guaranteed Double Attack on their next auto attack. We are still getting around the ungodly delay that gets in the way of more Hybrid play and it doesn't need a conditional check. It also adds a level unique tactics that adds synergy to a job that is trying to be a caster and a melee at the same time. There is no reason you wouldn't cast a spell before doing CDC or Mercy Stroke, because it would be pure profit.

As far as implementing it, you could add it as a 2nd functionality to Temper if you didn't want RDMs to learn it until later. If not, then make it a job trait and share it with DRK (*cough* give us OA in return). If you wanted there to be an upgrade to this trait, then either make it apply to the next 2 auto attacks or grant a Triple Attack instead of a Double attack. Additional double attacks are more suited to multi-hit WS while Triple attack is more suited towards single hit WSs, like relic WSs.

I'm not going to undersell how powerful this would be, but honestly RDM needs something to get them back in the game as a legitimate piece. We are all aware that the delay between actions is one of biggest downfalls of hybrid play. At least if we are dealing with it in some way, hybrid jobs won't always have to suffer for it.

Fire Away Sir.

Fire away at what? A charge-based system is what I introduced to this thread as an alternative to breaking the combat mechanics in the first place, except I brought up Spontaneity charges instead of DA charges (which would be a lot easier to handle).

You made a point of going on in multiple posts about how I obviously don't know anything about programming. I gave you an existing model. I asked you to add to that existing model in a way that would do what you want to do without breaking or completely rewriting that model. Instead of saying "Well they can do it", show me how they could do it because I'm honestly curious what you think you can come up with.

I am still interested in seeing what you can come up with, despite your deflection. You've spent half this thread telling me that I don't know how to program and that this is easy, so please demonstrate your skill for me. Simply saying "A conditional" doesn't mean anything.

I also think you're really stretching what this would do for the job if you think adding melee proficiency will affect how viable Red Mage is in Endgame. I'll tell you right now, buffs to melee won't do a damn thing for the job as a whole in Endgame. The one ancillary benefit to the Spontaneity-charge system I mentioned earlier is that if would affect both melee RDMs and caster RDMs.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Wow nice and bitter as usual GG. I'm not trying to upset you, I just wanted you to realize you are leaving discussions open only to yourself.

This is an actual discussion and I thank you for it. Instead of you saying I see nothing but problems and no one can fix them, you say these are the problem and I don't see a fix for what we are talking about. For me, the fix is we adjust the way in which something would be implemented but keep the same idea. You can shoot down what I say next and I won't care, so long we keep moving on to the next generations of ideas.

If it would really cause that much additional server traffic than instead of having to do a conditional you just cause casting on RDMs to add a buff that gives them a guaranteed Double Attack on their next auto attack. We are still getting around the ungodly delay that gets in the way of more Hybrid play and it doesn't need a conditional check. It also adds a level unique tactics that adds synergy to a job that is trying to be a caster and a melee at the same time. There is no reason you wouldn't cast a spell before doing CDC or Mercy Stroke, because it would be pure profit.

As far as implementing it, you could add it as a 2nd functionality to Temper if you didn't want RDMs to learn it until later. If not, then make it a job trait and share it with DRK (*cough* give us OA in return). If you wanted there to be an upgrade to this trait, then either make it apply to the next 2 auto attacks or grant a Triple Attack instead of a Double attack. Additional double attacks are more suited to multi-hit WS while Triple attack is more suited towards single hit WSs, like relic WSs.

I'm not going to undersell how powerful this would be, but honestly RDM needs something to get them back in the game as a legitimate piece. We are all aware that the delay between actions is one of biggest downfalls of hybrid play. At least if we are dealing with it in some way, hybrid jobs won't always have to suffer for it.

Fire Away Sir.

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Actually there wouldn't be nearly as big a conflict between attack vs casting if spells cast faster. Currently this is the only game I know where most spells take as long as they do to cast. Buffing and enhancing spells should be near instant cast, with healing in the 1~3 second range and nukes in the 5s range. But because everything takes forever you end up with this long ass time your sitting there doing nothing but watching a magical bar fill up.

Mana, and anyone else still arguing at this point;
1) Melee while casting, as proposed, is impossible in every sense of the word. If it was possible through ghetto coding and such, it still will not happen, so it stays as impossible
2) If your original goal was to give RDM different melee options, please start another thread, as this thread is specifically about the concept of meleeing while casting.
^ That topic is closed, answered, done.

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Originally Posted by Shadowsong

Mana, and anyone else still arguing at this point;
1) Melee while casting, as proposed, is impossible in every sense of the word. If it was possible through ghetto coding and such, it still will not happen, so it stays as impossible
2) If your original goal was to give RDM different melee options, please start another thread, as this thread is specifically about the concept of meleeing while casting.
^ That topic is closed, answered, done.

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Yeah, I'm going to ignore that. We'll decide when we are done. So long as GG and I feel like going back and forth I'm not going to stop a discussion.

@GG You do get how Zanshin was added after the original game engine was created, right? It was added as a secondary stage to accuracy checks. I'm not saying that you have to change the original code to get what you want. You just have to build on existing examples. Just like the Zanshin system, the steps system for DNC was added after the fact. The game is more than capable of adding charges or temporary buffs that only persist for a single or even multiple attacks.

I understand we are all extremely cynical of SE, because their track record is horrible. But their track record also does include them adding systems on top of their existing game engine.

I don't personally care if RDM grows as a mage or a melee or both. It just needs to grow out of it's current state. If it grows as a hybrid it needs systems that work with both of it's sides. To attack and cast at the same time doesn't have to be the goal. The only goal has to be for RDM to get stronger.

So long as we can agree at least on this then we can keep going.

You call what you and GG are having a discussion?
The thread: Can we melee while casting?
Answer: No
Discussion? The "discussion" I've seen for about NINE pages is that 2+2 cant obviously mean 4 because come on guys, I know what I'm talking about, I'm kinda a big deal

You think people are going to come in here for RDM discussion? No, people are going to look at the thread title, decide you just don't know how programming works, see 10 pages of arguing that red=blue, and then promptly forget the thread and regain 5 IQ points.

Edit: Please stop bringing up Zanshin,

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

I understand we are all extremely cynical of SE, because their track record is horrible. But their track record also does include them adding systems on top of their existing game engine.

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^This right here is the source of your misunderstanding. The game engine has NEVER changed in the history of the ga...... ya know what? Nevermind. Keep posting, this is going full circle and is becoming funny again.

All i see now when i come to this thread is some theorizing of how to make magic and melee play together better, which is good, then i see shadowsong every couple of posts going "LET IT DIE!" and raging out, then ending each post with some way to make it seem theyre somehow entertained by this despite their repeated posts about ending it filled with agitation. If its so "funny" then enjoy it, if you dont like that a reasonable idea may come from the nitpicking, well theres plenty buttons to help you on the page, like the ignore, back, and xlose buttons.

Even if we let this die, these posts will still sit in a lump on the bottom of the forum, gathering dust so if we need to cover some related ideas to make melee/casting more friendly, as far as i see it, this is as good a place as any. Welcome to the rdm forums, the derail starts here.

well i suppose that is true greatguardian rarely seems to agree with anybody on any thread from what i've see or rather bothered to check and read.

If I agree with someone, I typically like their posts or talk to them on other forums/via PM on other forums where it's easier to discuss whatever it is I agree with them on.

Zanshin is not an example that affects the way this works.

Steps are not an example that affects the way this works.

These are toolkit-level changes, which I described a few pages ago with my awesome MSPaint pyramid. You can definitely make toolkit changes. You just can't touch anything that might be infrastructure or Engine level without going beyond the scope of the resources we're allotting as "possible".

Please stop treating the Development Bros like religious figures. We can't just have faith that they can magically make 2 + 2 = 5 if we ask them to often enough. This isn't how the world works.

I have given you the model that the Developers are likely working with. You have a significantly broader access to methodology than they do, because there are likely even more infrastructure-specific checks on what they can/can't do in place in their actual server client. This is your topic. You're the one talking about how little the rest of us know about programming. Show me what you would do with this model to make it do what you want.

That is absolutely the only thing worth discussing in regards to the original post. If you want to talk about random RDMelee crap, go bump one of the billion other threads in this subforum about it. This thread is about melee while casting. If you think you know more about coding than I do, which is quite possible as there's always someone better out there, show me what the hell you'd do because I am legitimately curious as to what possible solution you could offer.

Yes. This is a challenge. Yes. I'm not letting this die. Why? Because this is actually interesting to me, and instead of dancing around the issue over and over I want to see what other people can come up with. I want to see people being creative within the bounds of reality. That is far more interesting than splashing around the kiddie pool musing about Summoners riding giant Bahamuts into the Qufim sunset.

See this is why I don't care if GG and I agree. He is reasonable and he actually cares about this. Also his sarcasm is delightful.

I apologize in advance that I bring up Zanshin and things like Steps often, but I want to make sure we are on the same page. The point is these are the kinds of toolkit fixes that we can actually expect to get from SE, right? We don't disagree on that at all.

We are aware of the kinds of additional systems that can be build on top of the existing codes. Zanshin is a representation of IF/THEN statements. I'm pretty sure I don't have to explain what these are because they are relatively self explanatory. We know that an action from a player can set off a chain of events that we can call secondary actions aka not actually actions for the sake of whether or not FFXI server will allow us to do more than 1 action at a time. It can also be regulated by conditions so that an action can always set off these chain of events or it has to satisfy specific conditions in order for the secondary actions to occur.

An example of an IF/THEN that doesn't have any conditions is Occult Acumen. You cast a spell. When the spell uses your MP you are given a percentage of it as TP. So long as you have Occult Acumen, this will occur every time (100%) you cast a spell and spend MP on it. If you fail to cast a spell or you don't have enough MP to cast because something removed your MP during the casting of the spell, then you don't get the TP.

In contrast, Zanshin only occurs when a player misses an attack. Furthermore, Zanshin has a conditional 'Zanshin' test you have to pass to see if Zanshin is going to proc. Zanshin only occurs at a set rate (X%), but that rate can be modified by equipment, merits, and job abilities (atmas as well). The server does a calculation to see if Zanshin will go off. If it does, then you make your Zanshin attack. Furthermore, you can make Zanshin act like it doesn't have a condition if you get your Zanshin rate to 100%. If you equip Nanatsusaya, then the server is still going to do the calculation, but it is always going to come up as true because you rigged the calculation with controllable factors.

The other thing I can observe that the Dev team uses is Arrays. Arrays are just ways that you can store information for other functions to use. The most obvious example is Steps. When you do a step, you get a step counter. If you are DNC main, you get 2 steps, if you are /DNC you get 1. Server is more than capable of keeping track of how many steps you currently have and also to make sure that you never have more than 5 of them. From this we can have a system in place that keeps track of specific kinds of actions and can tally them for use in other fuctions i.e. Flourishes. Afflatus Solace is another example of an array. The more damage you cure, the higher damage multiplier you gain for Holy. You also gain additional affects while under Afflatus Solace that is not related to it's array function, meaning that SE can make robust and multifaceted job abilities and traits, if they so choose. Look at how Zanshin is is affected by Hasso and Seigan if you need further proof of the complexity that can be added.

While none of this should be mind blowing for anyone, it should hopefully help you understand what I understand. The devs still have a working tool kit that can easily provide us with the sort of functions that would satisfy a large variety of requests. They choose not to give us things, they are not incompetent nor incapable of doing what we would want. The dreaded 'Balance' that is coming our way, might actually turn into a good thing.

The tools they have at their disposal are basic but powerful tools that can be used in a wide variety of applications. They are more than capable of creating code that can 'simulate' the effects of what it would be like to be able to cast and attack at the same time, at least from a numbers stand point even if they didn't go back and fiddle with the game's original engine code. They can also setup new systems, just like they did for DNC, SCH, WHM, NIN, and SAM more recently.

The mantra for all programmers is KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. The most efficient and clean way to fix a problem in programming is always the best. If you have 2 different ways to accomplish your objective, so long as both meet the same objectives you have, you use the one that takes the least amount of time and will require the least amount of debugging later. The point of programming is to solve problems quickly and efficiently. The only reason you pick more complicated coding is because you are looking to your future problems/expectations and your more complicated code is better suited to your future problem or will reduce the amount of work you will have to do later.

The point I make is that all of the things we want represented can be easily so long as you know how to use simple tools effectively. I can already see that they can use 2 very powerful, but basic functions on other jobs. I know what you can do with only those 2 functions and there is plenty that CAN be done based on what they have already done to other jobs.

To answer the question about reworking the engine so that a RDM can actually melee while casting. Can it be done? Almost 100% certain that it can. Is there a more SIMPLE solution that would use significantly fewer man(or woman)hours of programming? Extremely probable. Most fixes ARE patch fixes in programming. GG is not wrong in his sentiment that changing base code wouldn't happen, but for the sake of being a facetious asshole on the internet, if we talking about whether or not they could actually do it, I'm still sure that they could.

The other solution is that they get rid of the delay on magic. I'm not say this would happen, but once upon a time I used a Scythe on my DRK and would disengage/re-engage mobs because it drastically lowered the amount of time i spent between swings. This was exploitative at best and wasn't what the devs had intended, so they fixed it by giving actions a delay to prevent abuse. The only problem is that delay causes abuse to jobs that have any interest in doing more than 1 thing in rapid succession. For most DPS, this is not a problem because they almost exclusively auto attack > WS. For jobs like DRK or RDM that wish to do both at the same time, this is an absolute hindrance and partially explains why neither job has ever fared particularly well since both jobs were designed around more hybrid play. If the dev team wants to see if they can reduce the delay on ONLY magic, then I would be interested in if they could actually accomplish this. I'm not actually saying they can. I just know that they added delay after the fact and it's at least marginally possible that they can be selective about what they apply it to and what they do not. It will all come down to what they can actually do and if this fits into the 'balance' that we are all 'looking forward to'.

I'll suggest actual things when I get back from work to hopefully give you a better idea about what is possible with just the 2 functions I listed. A buffing system for either double attack or spontaneity is well within the scope of this.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

The other thing I can observe that the Dev team uses is Arrays. Arrays are just ways that you can store information for other functions to use. The most obvious example is Steps. When you do a step, you get a step counter. If you are DNC main, you get 2 steps, if you are /DNC you get 1. Server is more than capable of keeping track of how many steps you currently have and also to make sure that you never have more than 5 of them. From this we can have a system in place that keeps track of specific kinds of actions and can tally them for use in other fuctions i.e. Flourishes. Afflatus Solace is another example of an array. The more damage you cure, the higher damage multiplier you gain for Holy. You also gain additional affects while under Afflatus Solace that is not related to it's array function, meaning that SE can make robust and multifaceted job abilities and traits, if they so choose. Look at how Zanshin is is affected by Hasso and Seigan if you need further proof of the complexity that can be added.

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All I got from this was that you don't know what Arrays are.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

All I got from this was that you don't know what Arrays are.

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Or how the server processes what we call "additional attacks".

Just so we're clear, Zanshin hits are not a second attack round or a second action. They're not even a subaction. The attack round is the action. Just because you "swing" more than once in that round does not mean there are multiple rounds going on.

Zanshin is just Double Attack with a check for a missed swing in the round.

None of that entire paragraph on Arrays made any sense at all, either. I'm sure SE uses plenty of various data structures in their code, but that doesn't really mean anything to us. Likewise, none of the examples you brought up have anything to do with Arrays... There is a sequence of checks and stats that are run whenever an action is performed successfully. Steps are just a buff. They're checked at the same time requisite MP is checked for spells.

You say "Look at Hasso and Seigan to see how complex this can be", but neither of these abilities are complex in the slightest - no, not even when combined with Zanshin. Not from a gameplay perspective, and not from a coding perspective either. No one is saying SE can't work within the bounds of their own engine. I'm saying that they can't work outside it. If you haven't gleaned from any of the posts in this thread why Zanshin and MeleeCasting are extremely different beasts that fall on completely different sides of that line, I don't know what else to tell you.

I didn't ask you to define If statements. I didn't ask you to .... attempt? to define Arrays either. For the sake of discussion, assume that the audience knows all of this. I asked how you would apply these concepts to actually do something meaningful to the existing structure.

I am not discussing alternatives. I am not discussing concepts. We've been done with concepts for a while.

I have given you a concrete model to work with.

Apply something to it.

Don't explain it to the class.

Apply. Something.

I'm not being facetious. I'm not being sarcastic. I'm telling you that dancing around the issue and talking about concepts is not going to cut it. Anyone can talk concepts.

You need to produce something concrete. I have absolutely no interest in continuing a conversation about fluff - which is sad, because this conversation would have potential if there was even a single speck of concrete alternative input on the actual topic.

Since it is possible to do a large amount of damage and elicit various effects when you stop your melee attacks and cast magic, if we were to allow melee attacks to continue throughout spell-casting, the resulting damage output would be significantly higher than that of melee jobs. Furthermore, the balance of long casting times for powerful magic spells would fall apart. Due to these reasons, we will not be changing this.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

Since it is possible to do a large amount of damage and elicit various effects when you stop your melee attacks and cast magic, if we were to allow melee attacks to continue throughout spell-casting, the resulting damage output would be significantly higher than that of melee jobs. Furthermore, the balance of long casting times for powerful magic spells would fall apart. Due to these reasons, we will not be changing this.

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My only issue with the system is the delay added to your attacks that occurs when using abilities (Maybe i'm wrong here, but it also seems to apply after you finish casting a spell?)

Casting spells seems to slow you down for more than just the casting time of the spell.

Meleeing through a spellcast is silly though. Isn't this part of the reason Occult Acumen was added? To slightly offset the disadvantage of the time spent casting a spell by giving you some TP? I think the trait could be a bit more potent, but that's all that really could be done here.

(edit: I suppose that's a pointless observation when talking about RDM, but perhaps they could be granted the trait)

Mages that cast powerful magics have pitiful melee, and if they're meleeing and nuking at the same time they will eventually run out of MP or get killed by AoEs. This would not have been a bad idea, but it honestly wouldn't have helped RDMs as much as they think.

Its nice to finally have SE come out and say what I've been saying in the DRK forum forever. Melee while casting won't ever happen now move on with your life. However I think it would be more benefitial if these responses would come faster and that our ideas would actually be acknowledged instead of out right ignored.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

My only issue with the system is the delay added to your attacks that occurs when using abilities (Maybe i'm wrong here, but it also seems to apply after you finish casting a spell?)

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^
This is a valid complaint,
I think Byrth has a thread going on it right now

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Stuff

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#mymindisfulloffuck

No one is denying you dont THINK you know what you are talking about. It's apparent you have some interest in this, and you are passionate about it. But please, practice the open mindedness you preach to others to adopt.
We are trying to educate, though after 10 pages it looks more clubbing a baby seal

honestly maybe I am the only one, but on my ninja, in general I find the time I spend casting spells like store TP makes me lose more TP than I gain...

I'm surprised this nonsense even merited a CR response...

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in general I find the time I spend casting spells like store TP makes me lose more TP than I gain...

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You either cast it before a fight for an extra edge on your damage, or you use it in conjunction with Yurin and Myoshu to lessen TP feed. Why is everyone always so confused about this spell?

only thing I would like to see, is your weapons not disappearing when you're casting!

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Originally Posted by Shadowsong

I contribute nothing to actual discussions.

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Agreed. If you want to get childish about this, at least I contribute. What do you do?

Got another response about a subject I care about. I'm happy. I don't like the answer, but hey, at least it's better than the piss and vinegar I usually have to listen to.

Sorry you guys don't know how to use arrays to achieve a variety of functions. I won't talk about things you don't know anymore. I'm clearly not a credible source because you say so.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

Lyltia is awesome

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Holy crap its Lyltia, sup man

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Sorry you guys don't know how to use arrays to achieve a variety of functions. I won't talk about things you don't know anymore. I'm clearly not a credible source because you say so.

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Everyone on the internet is uncredible until proven otherwise. You have not proven otherwise. I suppose I have to repeat myself. No one is denying you THINK you know what you are talking about.
Usually when I am confronted with a chance to learn about a topic, especially one I find interesting and already have a base knowledge, I tend to pay attention to those smarter than me.

Can you at least see this from our perspective? To us, you are sounding exactly like you are condemning us for sounding like. What would YOU say to someone who was saying to you "2+2=5" and was utterly convinced that it was truth?

This is becoming harder and harder not to pull the RL card.
Do you not even second guess yourself among almost UNANIMOUS opposition?

And contribute to what? After post #2 on the first page when someone stated the desired action was impossible, the thread became a joke.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

but it honestly wouldn't have helped RDMs as much as they think.

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I think it's to the point that they will keep asking for everything until SE stops always saying "RDM buff... simple answer No"

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Holy crap its Lyltia, sup man

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Staying up til 4:30 AM, getting 6 Wings from 5 Bukhis, firing my THF.

ITT: When asked to pretend everyone understands programming and just talk in programming jargon, someone decides that it's not worth trying to explain programming to people who "don't know what arrays are".

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...271930cc87.jpg

I can definately see "Official Forums IV: You guys don't know what arrays are"

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Originally Posted by Shadowsong

Stop pulling the RL card please, it degrades the entire thread. People obviously wouldnt be poasting if they had no programming experience at all (as misguided as some of the posts are). However what I am noticing is some people are confusing vanilla, classroom programming to high end MMO game engines.

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This is what is generally referred to as "having no experience".