Warping Directly To BCNM Circles

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Originally Posted by Ladycandygem

Imagine you were playing Call of Duty

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Ewww, no. Games like Call of Duty are about instant gratification, MMO's are not.

I support the OP a 100%. Why this havent been implemeted years ago I have no idea.

The conserns about RMTs taking over the AH because of this warp-method is retarded IMO. SE shouldnt design a game around RMTs and hold back the gameexperience for many. They should find better ways to deal with RMTs instead...
In my experience people dont wanna do BCNMs and Avatar fights cos it is so far away. Some even never finish the lvl 20 avatar fights, just to be able to warp to the Cloister of Trials. The fact is that people want this and have been wanting it for years... not that you should have anything you want, but come on... you get 8 different warps inside 1 zone in abyssea >_>

Lastly, make it a challenging quest to be able to warp to the BCNM. Example: When you to have finished all the 4 cloudy orb BCNMs, you can warp to those locations if you need to do a cloudy orb BCNM. When you have finished all the sky orbs-bcnms you can warp to them if you need to do a sky orb BCNM and so on... Dont just give away the warp like the Abyssea warps, make people work for it!
And this way people will do new BCNMs, KSNMs etc because 'they wanna catch them all!'.

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You make it seem like BCNM warps alone will condemn the rest of the game.

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I totally admit it's a slippery slope, but it's a pretty probable one because they occasionally do make travel easier. But even after they do, people always ask for them to make it even easier.

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But I guess you; if you could would remove Chocobos, Teleport and Warp Scrolls too right? Confluxes, Horst and all of his compansions and anything remotely close to making travel easier on a player who has little time.

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No, aboslutely not. I don't consider these to be too easy/lazy. Chocobos still have you moving through an area, and they can't go everywhere. Teleports require a certain job, have a cast time, and don't go to a wide range of places. Confluxes are limited to different spots within an area, and they have a cost. I'm not totally thrilled with them only because I think they are the cause of people suggesting we get instant teleports to everywhere else as well. People complained a lot less about stuff like this just a few years ago. The easier it gets, the easier people want it.

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Most games let you teleport to each battlefield

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List them? Most of the ones I've played either don't or their game world is too small for it, or their gameworld is too disjointed and requires teleports because there's no other way.
The last time I played WoW, you still had to travel to dungeons, other continents, etc. The only thing you can jump straight to are the PvP areas.
DDO, almost the entire game is situated within one big city or directly connected to it;
MapleStory has hardly any convenient travel unless you pay money for it (The game probably most in need of better travel) FFXIB has instant travel between certain fixed points, but you can't just teleport to where the battles are, you still have to do some walking.

There are BCNMs in a lot of different places. Consider how many warps are necessary. Consider the Summoner mini quests and how some people don't even use them for their intended purpose but as a means of free travel to hard to reach places. When you consider the location of the various BC areas, I think these would be abused to travel to these areas for reasons other than doing BCNMs, which is the main reason I don't like them. I suppose if you initiated the fight right at Shami and got warped into the arena itself so it couldn't be abused, it might work.

What slippery slope? Like building things players want into a game? Yeah. that would be terrible. RMTs aren't doing BCNMs. There is nothing to "abuse" in these areas. Warps are not easy mode. In a game where people insist that a vast portion of the population still plays on shitty PS2 graphics, looking at scenery is hardly an excuse.

TL;DR: Yes, BCNM teleports is easy mode.

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What slippery slope? Like building things players want into a game?

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Not everything some people want should make it into a game. It's what I call easy buttoning. People ask for something to make the game easier. They get it. Then they figure they got that, so they can ask to make the game even easier. Once all transportation easiness is provided, then they can start making the fights themselves easier and easier, until we start asking for the fights to start out beat the moment you enter them, because all that tedious monster killing takes too much time. Eventually, the game will just play itself so we don't have to.



Yes, that's ridiculous and over the top. But the point I'm trying to make is- I don't like it when most things get easy buttoned. When the game starts feeling more like work than a game, that's when it's time to move on. I don't mind some shortcuts here and there, e.g. making some of these lesser traveled areas faster to access (example: make the boat thing between zeruhn and palborough mines a two-way path), especially where imbalances exist (e.g. Horlais Peak is disproportionately more time consuming to reach compared to the other two). But I don't think we should be getting teleported straight to the BCs. At an extreme minimum, if there is a teleport you should have to use an orb and complete a battle at a given BCNM area once before you can jump there.

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There is nothing to "abuse" in these areas.

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Yes, there is, as it makes certain places that are *supposed* to be remote much closer at hand. People already use the shiva mini-battle to get to fei'yin for other purposes instead of to actually fight shiva (whether it be low or high or the carby prep fight), which people who actually did the quest can't do- I consider that an abuse of a function for something other than what was intended. Some of the zilart mission BCs require navigating a maze or meeting certain conditions to be able to reach, being able to teleport to these would let you skip all that stuff that they intended for you to be put through- you could go there and do the mission instead of the BCNM. People say they want these for quick access to BCNM fights- even if that's all they really want, it can still be used for whatever you want to do in those places.

You know what, in the mist of just running around doing random stuff and being like... not lazy and completing some Add-on missions, it dawned at me that this whole thing is completely stupid. Allow me to explain.

So far, thanks to Voidwatch, you can warp to some locations that other wise would have never been traveled too because traveling through certain areas suck. It's understandable. Now Voidwatch is going to be entering it's third chapter, but it's not the last one. What if... by some whacky chance, the third or forth chapter have Voidwatch rifts in Beastmen territory. Voidwatch officers will be obligated to warp you to the entrances of these places. Seems like a win for people wanting a faster way to BCNM locations since it does lower some travel time. ...Provided you do actually complete these voidwatch chapters to obtain the ability to warp to these areas.

I don't know, Adding Warps to BCNM's is a Slippery slop.

Sure, first its warping to BCNMs, Next its Warping to Different Regions in the game for little to no cost (oh wait, Outpost Warps? Voidwatch Warps?)

Next thing you know GMs and RMT are having sex orgies in Whitegate with Colibri while spawning gil, ruining the economy, and Dupping Voidwatch Drops. You never know where it'll stop. Think of the Anarchy that will surely follow if we get BCNM warps.

RMT Will also surely reactivate their accounts to mass farm BCNM orbs now that they don't have to walk to the fighting areas.

So obviously this is a hideous idea.

Clearly this broom of tedium being shoved cleanly into our bowels is well worth it considering the alternatives of an Anarchist RMT and GM infested Vanadiel where Colibri Rape and Same sex marriages are allowed.







... If you haven't guessed by now I'm being completely sarcastic and have nothing but positive things to say about the OP.

Oh and not everyone does VW, I don't/haven't; so I don't even have the warps.

If the BCNMs were in areas in which there are mobs to actually fight through to get to the BCNM, I would say "No, no warping." simply because it would be akin to working towards a goal, i.e. fighting through hoards of monsters to fight and kill a boss. You know, dungeon crawling.

But let's be honest, to most of the BCNMs are nothing but low level fodder that you occasionally hit, nuke or otherwise murder along the way because the others in your group are lagging behind and it doesn't really matter if you reach the end 5 minutes early or 5 seconds early. Beyond that, all that's left is to enjoy the scenery and it's not as breathtaking the 50th time around. A lot of it wasn't breathtaking the first time around either.

Even if players are using it for a quick jump from town to the area, who really cares? They'd get there anyway. Mobs along the way are practically ambiance, they're part of the background at this point.

Just give a cost for the warp, but let it be free for people who are using it for BCNM access. Say trade an orb to the NPC and it says "Shami found another sucker for his magic rock disposal? Where you dumping that off?" returns orb and warps the player.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

TL;DR: Yes, BCNM teleports is easy mode.
Yes, that's ridiculous and over the top. But the point I'm trying to make is- I don't like it when most things get easy buttoned. When the game starts feeling more like work than a game, that's when it's time to move on.

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Why would I quit when they could just add a warp? Why would anybody quit over this? There is a difference between removing minor nuisances, and breaking the game. Only certain parts feel like work. the rest is fun. Making the game more fun and less work is a good thing no matter what derogatory term you apply to it. And BTW, easy button actually sounds positive despite what your trying to do with the term. I like easy button. That's why I play FFXI, not rugby.

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Yes, there is, as it makes certain places that are *supposed* to be remote much closer at hand. People already use the shiva mini-battle to get to fei'yin for other purposes instead of to actually fight shiva (whether it be low or high or the carby prep fight), which people who actually did the quest can't do- I consider that an abuse of a function for something other than what was intended. Some of the zilart mission BCs require navigating a maze or meeting certain conditions to be able to reach, being able to teleport to these would let you skip all that stuff that they intended for you to be put through- you could go there and do the mission instead of the BCNM. People say they want these for quick access to BCNM fights- even if that's all they really want, it can still be used for whatever you want to do in those places.

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This is all just silly. You don't know what they intended, nor do you have authority to say. You speak a lot as if you built the game. You didn't. There is no maze. Everyone has been there a thousand times. the graphics in these areas are pretty crappy. The mobs are low level and of no concern for anyone going to the BCNM. When they created this stuff, there was a need to create artificial difficulty in order to keep the content from being over done. They have added massive amounts of content since then, and no longer have that need.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

When the game starts feeling more like work than a game, that's when it's time to move on.

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You DO realize, that walking 15 minutes to a BCNM is the work, while the actual battle is the "fun", right? You sound like you're a little confused, sir.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Some of the zilart mission BCs require navigating a maze or meeting certain conditions to be able to reach, being able to teleport to these would let you skip all that stuff that they intended for you to be put through- you could go there and do the mission instead of the BCNM.

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Okay, then just make it a requirement that you must have already visited the BCNM at least once before you can warp there. That's how every single warp that already exists in the game works. Problem solved. People still have to "solve the maze."

I actually found it quite funny that this was one of the points you were trying to make, because it doesn't matter anyways. A majority of people already use the wikis(you know, like ffxiclopedia and gamerescape) to avoid having to do any of the brainwork themselves.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

This is all just silly. You don't know what they intended, nor do you have authority to say. You speak a lot as if you built the game. You didn't.

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Don't mind him. This seems to be a recurring theme with him.

Alhanelem seems to have some secret insight as to what the developers think, do, have done, and will do. (I've heard some rumors involving tinfoil hats and telepaths.)

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Originally Posted by Komori

Oh and not everyone does VW, I don't/haven't; so I don't even have the warps.

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Then I guess I can only assume the lot asking for these means of transportation haven't dwelved into voidwatch either to utilize the vw warping. As it stands, it covers a wide array of areas.


But that explains why no one has really commented on the abundance of easy travel via VW alone.

I never see anyone doing shouts for T1 VW....

I don't mean to be "that guy", but wouldn't this be abused as a way to shortcut around the world, and cheapen the actual teleport scrolls and outposts? I mean, there's the Lv20 Summoner trials, but those both require a tuning fork which consumes inventory space instead of being a key item like the normal ones, AND also forces you to play on Summoner.. and that's because it's pretty much neccessary for the job. How would you plan on restricting such a BCNM warp function so it isn't used to get around everywhere instantly?

P.S. While I am happy that there ARE quicker ways to get around in XI since I've returned to Vana'diel, I think SE has reached a happy medium with the choices. If they make too many teleports, it'll both cheapen the actual spells that do that, as well as result in the same problems Ultima Online and World of Warcraft have; absolutely nobody travelling anywhere, just instant-warping to the destination. "A million players and nobody's around.."..

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Originally Posted by Soranika

You know what, in the mist of just running around doing random stuff and being like... not lazy and completing some Add-on missions, it dawned at me that this whole thing is completely stupid. Allow me to explain.

So far, thanks to Voidwatch, you can warp to some locations that other wise would have never been traveled too because traveling through certain areas suck. It's understandable. Now Voidwatch is going to be entering it's third chapter, but it's not the last one. What if... by some whacky chance, the third or forth chapter have Voidwatch rifts in Beastmen territory. Voidwatch officers will be obligated to warp you to the entrances of these places. Seems like a win for people wanting a faster way to BCNM locations since it does lower some travel time. ...Provided you do actually complete these voidwatch chapters to obtain the ability to warp to these areas.

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Here is the thing about VW npc's, they are just like every other warp npc in this game: they cannot warp you to areas you have not been to so I don't see what your problem is with a bcnm warp Ahlanehem if they all work the same way.

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Why would I quit when they could just add a warp?

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Hmm.

Step 1. Eliminate everything that feels like "work." That is, eliminate all travel times, all grinding, all tedious activities that get in the way of the parts you consider "not work."
Step 2. Play that "not work" content unobstructed for a while.
Step 3. "Not work" content starts to feel like work. Return to step 1.

The difference between work and fun is which pumps the chemicals into the reward center of your brain. But the more you do the thing that feels fun, the more of it you need to do to get that response, until it eventually doesn't work at all anymore. So eventually, instant warps to BCNMs won't be enough to keep you feeling entertained because the BCNMs themselves won't be fun.

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You DO realize, that walking 15 minutes to a BCNM is the work, while the actual battle is the "fun", right? You sound like you're a little confused, sir.

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I'm not confused at all. Traveling and exploration is part of the experience, and can be enjoyable (or at least non-detrimental), especially early on in your game. Speaking generally and not just about these things, it's a game we're playing, not a job we're working at. If you feel like getting around and playing the game is like work, then it's clearly not that fun for you anymore and you should consider trying a new game. For me, the overall experience is what's fun. Not just the battles, not just the dialog, not just the any one piece of the game you'd care to mention. It's the whole package.

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A majority of people already use the wikis(you know, like ffxiclopedia and gamerescape) to avoid having to do any of the brainwork themselves.

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What does using the wikis have to do with going through these areas. It's not just about "brainwork", it's about just plain work. These puzzles and encounters are specifically designed to gate your progress. Skipping past them completely undermines that gating concept. The content was specifically designed to require a certain amount of time to complete.

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Don't mind him. This seems to be a recurring theme with him.

Alhanelem seems to have some secret insight as to what the developers think, do, have done, and will do. (I've heard some rumors involving tinfoil hats and telepaths.)

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It's not a "recurring theme" with me. I do not have any "secret insights." I simply logically conclude what is and isn't likely to happen based on what we already know and their past behavior. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. Ask any expert in psychology or sociology.

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P.S. While I am happy that there ARE quicker ways to get around in XI since I've returned to Vana'diel, I think SE has reached a happy medium with the choices.

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So much this, 1000 times. It's already way easier to get around than it has ever been. There are enough shortcuts and quick trips that the time required is not excessive. We really don't need a ton of extra warps.

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Originally Posted by Olor

I never see anyone doing shouts for T1 VW....

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Move to Bismarck. See VW shouts fairly frequent.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

Here is the thing about VW npc's, they are just like every other warp npc in this game: they cannot warp you to areas you have not been to so I don't see what your problem is with a bcnm warp Ahlanehem if they all work the same way.

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Really, I didn't know that. But I have a crazy ideal.... if you can't be warped to a place you haven't visited yet.... you could, I dunno, go to it! Why should anyway, say, the VW warp to Ifrit's Cauldron if they've never even bothered to get an airship pass to Kazham. Which odd considering you have to go to norg to even unlock it... STILL.

You're not basically suggesting people should be warped directly to BCNMs on the premise of avoiding traveling through areas to get there, but even to avoid travel period. Essentially, you'd like it to work like mini-tuning forks for SMN, who have the ability to warp directly to cloisters for the intended purpose of obtaining avatars at level 20 at minimum fame requirement. Cause you know, it was unfair to the job to get high fame and traveling at low levels as a smn through VERY dangerous areas to obtain the the single most important thing to the job. Of course some of us abuse that for later purposes by not using it as intended but that's a different story.

With that in mind, now I really don't support direct BCNM warps on the assumption that it should available for everyone, regardless of even traveling through the area prior.

I'm happy FFXI have gradually changed but it's moving to the point of just handing stuff over. Oh right.... your argument to justify it's not "handing" stuff over is the abysmal drop rates, it's still bordering instant gratification and taking the feeling of actual achievement and perception of worth out of the game.

Call me old fashioned but I like the travel aspect to BCNMs. To me it feels more like a mission and adventure. I love runing to the avatar fights too (eventhough i can warp there by the mini tuning fork) it again makes things feel more fun and exciting that i'm on my way to kill the Ice goddess or the devil god of fire and so on. Anyway I vote to NOT make bcnm or avatar fights warpable.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Hmm.

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When these BCNMs were released, they had some of the best gear /items in the game. They no longer have that. The work / reward ratio is no longer in balance. Shortening the travel to them would correct that to some degree. Provisions can be made to ensure that the warps are not abused IE. only allowing people one teleport per orb purchased from shami or w/e.

Your burning desire to tell people they can't have improvements to the game is disturbing at best.

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When these BCNMs were released, they had some of the best gear /items in the game. They no longer have that. The work / reward ratio is no longer in balance. Shortening the travel to them would correct that to some degree.

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If this is (part of) the issue, then I would propose making better BCNMs in lieu of making them easier to access.

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Your burning desire to tell people they can't have improvements to the game is disturbing at best.

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I have no such desire. But the devs have limited development time and I would rather it be spent on something more valuable.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I would rather it be spent on something more valuable.

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This will never happen and you know it.

i read most of the topic but I'm a little short on time atm to finish the last couple. Anyway I think they should exit people from the BCNM right at the burning circle. I never understood the whole running around bit. its just a waste of time imo to wait on people. Granted some are close to the burning circle but like someone said why run across Sarutabaruta or even have to run back through Giddeus. just have the exit for everyone right at the Burning circle. Also as far as RMT are concerned they are limited to how many seals they have just like the rest of us.

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i read most of the topic but I'm a little short on time atm to finish the last couple. Anyway I think they should exit people from the BCNM right at the burning circle.

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This much I agree with.

I would love a warp to bc npc. If not directly from the city, then at least right inside the zone the bc is in. And I can't believe how some people will nay say anything. Its a great idea that makes bc's way more accessible and I couldn't see why people wouldn't be behind it, except for they immediately disagree with anything on the forums. Which seems to be the case.

Not everything that would be great has to or should be implemented. Best example:

It would be great if they implemented the "Give me 100,000,000 gil" command in your moghouse on the live servers, as well as the future invincibility command. But nobody asks for that. If everyone had unlimited money, then money would be meaningless. Thus, we shouldn't get it.

I and others in this thread do not "immediately disagree with everything we see."
see this thread for sample proof

We've agreed on plenty of things. Just not this one.

They should make a KI that is consumed as soon as you enter a BC area. That way you lose it when he warps you, and you can't walk there to save it for later. No chance to abuse it. Just have shami issue it once per orb purchase, and not allow you to have more than 1 ki at a time.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

This much I agree with.

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Running around the BCNM is part of the overall experience. I enjoy it. It's also work. Stop asking for an easy button. Jeez.

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Originally Posted by Eric

Running around the BCNM is part of the overall experience. I enjoy it. It's also work. Stop asking for an easy button. Jeez.

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He just wants the game handed to him on a silver platter. People like him make everything easy not worth playing anymore.

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Originally Posted by Eric

Running around the BCNM is part of the overall experience. I enjoy it. It's also work. Stop asking for an easy button. Jeez.

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Hey you can always walk if you want regardless... the rest of us are really tired of it...

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Originally Posted by Laraul

Hey you can always walk if you want regardless... the rest of us are really tired of it...

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He was being facetious.