Walk of the no Coin drops??? formerly Walk of echoes

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Hi, Camate!

I understand what you're saying, unfortunately I think the Devs are working under an imperfect understanding of how Walk of Echoes lotting used to function in practice.

The Devs are assuming, when they make their conclusions about the supply of Coins, that all players entering Walk of Echoes are free lotting all of the coins. In practice, this is not the case. Pre-Update, many players would lot on only one type of coin and pass alternate coin drops onto others. Rather than a free for all, an organized system of passing/lotting resulted in increased rewards for everyone present.

On an individual level, a player is more likely to end up with coins and items they do not need now than they would have previously, and less likely to obtain the items that they are pursuing.

While I understand the gap that must exist between the intended function of the system and the actual utilization by players in practice can often inhibit the Dev's understanding of our grievances, I hope that this will help to clear things up a bit.

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I think an easy way to remedy this issue is to allow coins to be traded in for a different type, similar to the system of getting kindred seals from beastman seals. This way you can have a one to one ratio trade on different types of coins and the general populous isn't affecting the value of the items in a potentially dangerous way.

Now I could be completely wrong and woe chest could be just as random as bcnm chest everytime. If that is the case then screw woe LOL.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

Okay I will try to explain this so that you understand. Coin drop rates were INCREASED. The coins are divided amungst the players in the current flux. Lets say there is a 20 coin maximum drop per run no matter how many players enter the room. Lets say 36 people enter and the coins are divided evenly, this means 16 people wont get a coin. Now lets do the same scenario with 5 people. This now means everyone gets multiple coins. Understand it now?

This basically means that low manning fluxes 1-5 is more efficient then doing fluxes 8+ with 36 people.

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actually how it works now is: a chest pops with a random number of items for each person.

The number of items in the chests is random and has nothing to do with the number of people.

no matter how many people enter, you still get the same crap in your chest.

the problem is that now you can't pass crap you don't need and lot on stuff you do need from other peoples pools.

you only have access to your drops.

It's supposed to take you a long time to finish.
That said, people keep touting it's "easier" to do a HQ empyrean. It's not easier, it's faster. There is a difference.

As it stands right now, you can walk into WoE solo, autoattack and/or randomly cure stuff, and have a chance at coins/dice for a gimpyrean.

It takes longer but it is easier to get a gimpyrean weapon. You could do it naked, and no one would fault you for it, because most people are too busy being doomed by Annhialative Adenia to care that you're naked and spamming cure II on everything that moves.

n/a123451676

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Hi, Camate!

I understand what you're saying, unfortunately I think the Devs are working under an imperfect understanding of how Walk of Echoes lotting used to function in practice.

The Devs are assuming, when they make their conclusions about the supply of Coins, that all players entering Walk of Echoes are free lotting all of the coins. In practice, this is not the case. Pre-Update, many players would lot on only one type of coin and pass alternate coin drops onto others. Rather than a free for all, an organized system of passing/lotting resulted in increased rewards for everyone present.

On an individual level, a player is more likely to end up with coins and items they do not need now than they would have previously, and less likely to obtain the items that they are pursuing.

While I understand the gap that must exist between the intended function of the system and the actual utilization by players in practice can often inhibit the Dev's understanding of our grievances, I hope that this will help to clear things up a bit.

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This post eloquently sums up what I was going to post with much less civility.

The dev team think personal coffers = everyone getting drops = more drops into the system.
What they dont take into account is I have no need for these Coins of Ruin and Coins of Glory that I keep getting from WoE and will either toss them immidiately, or just not collect them from the chest.

To be honest, if the dev team thinks that everyone will try to lot every coin in the old system, and thus everyone is happy with getting any random coin in there personal coffer in the new system, then that just shows how out of touch they are with the player base.

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Originally Posted by Camate

I received some feedback from the development team concerning coin drop rates. Since it has only been a couple of days since the version update was implemented and also considering that in there were adjustments to participation numbers as well as new chambers, we would like to make the appropriate decision while monitoring all these things on a wide-scale.

Also, it can be thought that the feeling of there not being a lot of coins is due to the effects of changing the reward distribution method from casting lots to individual treasure chests.

In the case of lotting rewards, the amount was based on the division between the number of participants, so there really isn’t any guarantee that you could obtain a reward even if there were a good amount of them, making it so the chance of you obtaining something would decrease with a higher amount of players participating.

On the other hand, individual treasure chests give one player’s worth of rewards, so it’s possible that the volume feels a bit poor. However, you are guaranteed to obtain these rewards and it is equivalent to the results after lotting. Since we have prepared this on an individual scale, in actuality the total number of rewards have increased. On this basis, the system has been set up so the total amount of coins, as well as the amount gained by a single player, will increase.

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Those are my findings in the original post. Since then I have been tracking drops for both myself, my mule, and several others. Here are the current results:

101 total runs
36 coins
2 pouches

If coins drop in a uniform manner that means every 101 runs I would receive 7 of each coin. That means it would take 404 runs to complete a set of 30 coins. Since each WoE run has a built in game day wait that means at the current rate I am collecting coins under the new system it would take 404 real life hours to complete only this trial for a walk of echoes weapon. When compared to the amount of time it takes to make a superior empyrean weapon this does not give a reward relative to the amount of effort involved.

As an example, pre update I got 21 coins of birth in 29 runs.

Post update I have gotten 2 coins of birth in 14 runs.

The ONLY reasons people I know are doing walk of echoes at the moment is:

1) For an outside shot at an expensive magic scroll
2) Because we all know eventually the new will wear off and instead of 36 people in each flux there will be 8 which will make zones incredibly hard to clear. So the feeling is if you don't get your coins now you never will.

404 hours for a bedlam +1 when it would take 40 hours to make an Armageddon. WoE rates need to be changed and changed tonight.

^^ what he said

Also PLEASE change the area the Greater Amphiptere wanders in...

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Originally Posted by Krashport

HQ Vs. NQ why do people like to compare, Everything has its own time sink.

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Why not compare them? If you don't look at the WoE version as a weaker but should be easier to get version why bother getting it at all?

Also how do you win WoE solo? Please don't say you saw a group but weren't with them so you're "solo"

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Originally Posted by Cratylus

Also PLEASE change the area the Greater Amphiptere wanders in...

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It's like...even match now. Just kill it.

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Originally Posted by Buffy

It's like...even match now. Just kill it.

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Too hard to kill EM mobs sorry.

n/a123451676

Under the old system, 5 people walked away with 5 weapons in x runs.
Under the new system, 1 person walked away with 1 weapon in 5x runs and 4 weapons worth of coins that either get stockpiled until another set of magian trials is completed, or outright thrown out.

Solution is easy: remove the EX flag from the coins so players can actually trade between them. Coins of Ruin get tossed regardless, but that's a given for a lolmelee staff.

The obvious solution is to build every WoE weapon for every job, therefore you want every coin...

On a more serious note, one solution to the horrible reward system would be to have all WoE weapons require the same coin. I don't know how difficult it would be for SE to convert each type of WoE coin into a single type. With the old system it would have sucked to have everyone lotting the same coin, but since everyone gets personal chests now I think it would work out better.

Of course if there's only one type of coin then SE would probably have to adjust the rate at which you get a coin or pouch in your chest.

Another solution might be to have a NPC that exchanges coins at a 3:1 ratio similar to the kindred seal/crest etc NPC.

Either way as it stands now I'd have to agree that empyrean are far less hassle to obtain than the randomness that is WoE. Just my two cents.

Overall, I'm worried about both coin and scroll rates once the new patch rush fades and people lose interest. It will happen eventually and anyone who missed the rush will basically suffer.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Camate,
Please read or translate the above quote to the developers as precisely as you can. This sums it up perfectly.

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In a perfect world maybe, but in a world were servers are populated by greedy people, the old system sucked way more than the current one. It was not infrequent to have people enter a flux, leech with a low lvl job with RR and just overlot everything in the pool. And you could do nothing to stop that except exit and lose your medallion. WOW, such a fair system.

Just let us POOL stuff we don't need, like Abyssean chests. If the pool is full don't let us pool it and have a message "the pool is full. please lot or pass everything and try again" or just give autolot priority to mats and THEN to coin and equips. OR put in pool only coins and pouches and not mats and scrolls and equips, since those are tradable, so that you don't risk to overflood pool and have stuff autolot

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Originally Posted by Kogenta

In a perfect world maybe, but in a world were servers are populated by greedy people, the old system sucked way more than the current one. It was not infrequent to have people enter a flux, leech with a low lvl job with RR and just overlot everything in the pool. And you could do nothing to stop that except exit and lose your medallion. WOW, such a fair system.

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That happened only rarely, and the culprit often found himself acting as a stool for a boss. Assuming the rest wasn't outlotting him on anything he dared lotting.

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Originally Posted by Kristal

That happened only rarely, and the culprit often found himself acting as a stool for a boss. Assuming the rest wasn't outlotting him on anything he dared lotting.

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Maybe on Bismark there is only kind and educated people, but i often saw people seacom 2 or even 3 coins and thus lotting them regardless of others asking them politely to choose only one coin. Or lotting and be fair the whole run then when a pouch drops from the final chest the greedy demon in every man comes out, and the lotwar begins. Then one fair man that see his final 900lot advncement pouch overlotted for 901 by a random guy passing by that has birth in seacom... Tell him that this stuff happens rarely.

I don't think anyone was asking for the old system back. The post I quoted simply explains why the new system sucks and in no way fixes the issues from the previous system. While I agree with the Idea of having each person get 1 chest, I think they need to make the coins Sell-able so that people can get what they need. Or maybe they could drastically increase the drop rate in chests. I quoted that post because it explained the problem with the system so well, and hopefully will prevent this system from being implemented elsewhere.

I don't want to be critical on the official forums, but I gotta say, this new Walk of Echoes simply isn't working. Yes, much more people are entering, but I'm seeing less coinage from 36 people clearing the zone (that's with getting decent EXP per run) than I was soloing/duoing before. As it's no doubt been said before, Empyrean Weapons that were already easier to obtain than the Walk of Echoes counterparts are now even easier to obtain in comparison.

I don't think realistically we're asking for things like the drop rate on new scrolls to be increased, but most people that do (or did) WoE did it for coins. We would obviously like to see these once in a while.

Personally when you look at time vs reward, I think the nm camping and vnm killing is sufficient enough to obtain a weapon of this calibre. I really don't think the coins should be that much of a time sink to get. I have no issue with guaranteed 1 coin drop rate and one coin is used for all weapons. Look at the other parts of the trial. Kindred crests. Elemental weapons are down to just collecting geodes now. Some elemental weapons are better then the woe counterparts, so put them on the same footing. The woe are about the WS and it is bad enough that some jobs are either flight or fail if they don't have that one ws as it is. like Ranger.

I agree that making Coins tradeable/bazaarable or AHable would be the best solution. Devious Die are, so why not coins?

They've already said that making coins tradeable/bazaarable would make it too easy, and they're right.
You have the choice of:

1.) Getting coins through WoE slowly, but requiring virtually no effort on your own part other than patience, and getting a WoE weapon.
2.) Putting forth some effort, getting a group together, buying pop items or cleaving for KIs, and doing a real Empyrean weapon, although it will most likely be faster than the WoE weapon, it does require significantly more manpower-dedicated-to-you-alone, skill, and gear.

slowly like half a year? then to get the dice another year to 2 years? yet within 2 months no one will be doing Woe so it wont be possible to even get.

I've picked up about 25 or so coins since Tuesday. You're exaggerating.

Not for nothing, in the downtime waiting for the day to turn*, I finished building some shelves for my apartment, and started reading the new David Foster Wallace. Take that, gold box farming!

(big lolz at people dumping on welfare weapons for being welfare weapons, and then turning around and complaining about how they aren't welfare enough)



*raise the coin drop rates if you want but if you take away my ability to get up, do other things, and know the precise moment when a few dozen people will simultaneously be elgible to start a new run, i will fight you

I have picked up 3 coins, none of them I need either. and no I am not exaggerating. I am not going to spend 2-3 hours a night doing just Woe, there are many other things I need to do also. So yes, easily 4 months for me to get my coins and I guarantee Woe will be dead in 2 months if adjustments aren't made.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

I've picked up about 25 or so coins since Tuesday. You're exaggerating.

Not for nothing, in the downtime waiting for the day to turn, I built some shelves for my apartment. Take that, Carabosse!

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So 5 Advancement, 5 Birth, 5 Decay, 5 Glory and 5 Ruin? Most of which are wasted since you either got the weapons already or don't plan on doing them?

Or you could spend 40 minutes doing woe and the remainder of those 2-3 hours doing other things. With a retrace scroll it takes under two minutes to get to WoE from anywhere in the game, and most of that is just getting Sigil and a new scroll. Moreover, you always know exactly when new runs will be starting: the change of day. When you did old school FoV, did you just hang around idling in the zone after completing a regime, waiting for the next day to start? This is the same thing. Even if you personally have a bunch of other stuff you could be doing in the game, at any given time there will be over 300 people idling in Jeuno on Cerberus and if even a fraction of them say "hey, maybe I could haul my pink ass to WoE for a little while", this event will be just fine.

As for the agony of random number generation, there's no rush here unless of course everybody gets all their weapons done, which is why I want to keep the drop rates as they are. You think people are going to get bored with a grindy event that is straightforward even if agonizingly slow? Are we playing the same game? Did the first 7 years of FFXI just not exist?

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So 5 Advancement, 5 Birth, 5 Decay, 5 Glory and 5 Ruin? Most of which are wasted since you either got the weapons already or don't plan on doing them?

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Something like that. Advancement's obviously Rev Fists and Birth will be Daka, but I can't decide whether to use Glory for Tobi or Maschu. WAR's 60, but who cares?

I finished my Decays for Hiradennotachi and am now 1/30 on Decays towards getting Jishnu's Radiance or perhaps Torcleaver. I don't even know what the weapons are called. My RNG is level 18 and my DRK is 22.

I have not before been interested in playing either RNG or DRK, but between book-burning and effectively dinging into the second-best weapon in the game for either of those jobs, this would be a one-week investment on my part if I change my mind.


http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/deal-with-it

Ok so you are saying do one a day, with getting a coin maybe 50% of the time, that would take 300 days to possibly get 30 coins, that is 10 months. Ya that is not overkill to get a ws. And as I said, this content will be long dead by then. I don't think anyone is insane to do something as stupid as that to get a weaponskill. Fact is within that year this game may not even be around for all we know.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Or you could spend 40 minutes doing woe and the remainder of those 2-3 hours doing other things. With a retrace scroll it takes under two minutes to get to WoE from anywhere in the game, and most of that is just getting Sigil and a new scroll. Moreover, you always know exactly when new runs will be starting: the change of day. When you did old school FoV, did you just hang around idling in the zone after completing a regime, waiting for the next day to start? This is the same thing. Even if you personally have a bunch of other stuff you could be doing in the game, at any given time there will be over 300 people idling in Jeuno on Cerberus and if even a fraction of them say "hey, maybe I could haul my pink ass to WoE for a little while", this event will be just fine.

As for the agony of random number generation, there's no rush here unless of course everybody gets all their weapons done, which is why I want to keep the drop rates as they are. You think people are going to get bored with a grindy event that is straightforward even if agonizingly slow? Are we playing the same game? Did the first 7 years of FFXI just not exist?




Something like that. I finished my Decays for Hiradennotachi and am now 1/30 on Decays towards getting Jishnu's Radiance or perhaps Torcleaver. I don't even know what the weapons are called. My RNG is level 18 and my DRK is 22.

I have not before been interested in playing either RNG or DRK, but between book-burning and effectively dinging into the second-best weapon in the game for either of those jobs, this would be a one-week investment on my part if I change my mind.


http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/deal-with-it

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So your reasoning for keeping shitty drop rates on a time sink event is that everyone should just level every job...... that makes perfect sense. I'll just go do that now.

Was that not the reasoning behind Abyssea in general?

I have now done 21 Walk of Echo runs in the new format as a 95 BST. I did a full world run starting at flux 1 and moving up each flux until flux 10. (still don't have access to 11). In my 21 run I recieved 17 random coins, 3 dice, and about 7 million in gil from item drops.

While I think this new Walk of Echoes is superior to the old. I do think the randomness of the coins is disheartening. It does take longer to farm one Walk of Echoes Emphy weaponskill then to do a real Emphy weapon. I have a kannagi that I duo'd 100% with a friend so I am aware of how long it takes to low man one.

My only real happiness with this system is the fact that I have 12 level 95 jobs, and I will finish 5 Walk of Echo weapons at the exact same time. So for me, Walk of Echo farming is a good idea, since it will shoot 5 birds at once.

If I was going after just a single Walk of Echoes weapon, I wouldn't bother, its a waste of time.

That's actually exactly my point. Walk of Echoes probably IS a waste of time for people who only ever play one job; those people can get an actual Empyrean and be fine with it because they'll use it 100% of the time.

It was my general fickleness about jobs that drove me to WoE to begin with, pre-patch; the general brainlessness of it now is just gravy.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Was that not the reasoning behind Abyssea in general?

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No. If everyone had all the jobs, this thread wouldn't be here. Fairly obvious.

I wish i could do flux 1 to 10. Everytime I go everyone stalks to 9, and maybe 7. There is always 0 people in all the other fluxes. did you notice any difference in coin drops from the lower ones compared to higher?

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

No. If everyone had all the jobs, this thread wouldn't be here. Fairly obvious.

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Everyone can GET the jobs really easily now, though. This, as I said, was the main purpose (and will ultimately be the staying power) of Abyssea, GoV book-burning, etc.

Bottom line is, once I finish the coins for Rev Fists/Daka/Maschu or Tobi, I'll probably be at or pretty close to being able to make the WoE Bow or Greatsword, if I want. As you could tell by my job levels, I had not previously considered playing DRK or RNG. If WoE, as a side-effect of accomplishing my own explicit goals, actually gets me to consider the merits of playing a job I'd never considered before*, I can't imagine what could make it more successful as an event.


*and with the carrot, rather than the stick, mind you; "here's Jishnu's if you decide to try out RNG" is much different than "you will have a much easier time clearing CoP if you level BLM"

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Everyone can GET the jobs really easily now, though. This, as I said, was the main purpose (and will ultimately be the staying power) of Abyssea, GoV book-burning, etc.

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So basically: you have time to level and gear 20 jobs and therefore everyone else does too.

By your logic, no one should ever pass any gear ever because eventually they will need everything. Is that how it works in your shell? Because I would really like to lot everything in every event. You know... seeing as I will need everything some day. You don't mind lotting against my level 1 thf mule for gear do you? I'm going to get around to leveling thf eventually on him.

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So basically: you have time to level and gear 20 jobs and therefore everyone else does too.

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No, I do not. If I am thinking about playing a new job, I need to carefully weigh the costs and benefits of doing so. Getting Jishnu's Radiance by accident would fall in the "benefit" column, and well, I have a hard time calling something in a game that would entice a player to play more a flaw in the game, even if actually doing so might not be such a great idea for said player.

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By your logic, no one should ever pass any gear ever because eventually they will need everything. Is that how it works in your shell? Because I would really like to lot everything in every event. You know... seeing as I will need everything some day. You don't mind lotting against my level 1 thf mule for gear do you? I'm going to get around to leveling thf eventually on him.

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Gosh, I hadn't thought of that! Tell you what: next time I have to lot against somebody else for a Coin of Decay, I'll be sure to pass!

xbobx - When I went through the full circle (1 through 10) the coin drop rate was about the same, the only thing that changed was the gear that could drop. Got the cure +4% cape in 9 and a belt and neck from some of the older ones. If I had to guess, I would say coin drop rate is equal in all the zones but if your farming for certain gear, stick to the ones you want the gear from.