Treasure Hunter Testing

Wonder if there's any testing on TH affecting key item drops. Because I'm getting a lot of Cara's KIs without proccing red. Appear to be getting KIs without red proc much more often on Thf/Nin (TH6-8 usually) than on War/Sam.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Also, funny thing... was in an alliance of 3 parties (1/1/2 people for most of it), and I never had more than one Seal in the treasure pool, and we got seals regularly (average time between seals < 6min, but bever < 5min).

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Were the other people killing at all?

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Were the other people killing at all?

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Good point, they weren't. Did they need to have hate to count for kills? Or even do the killshot?

The first was an AFK person to leech kills, which I didn't mind, the second was my WHM mule. It may have gotten hate on some mobs occasionally (when hasting), but not much from even that, since most spells landed after the mob died. If I get into that situation again, I'll split up the melees to different parties, or at least have the WHM cast Dia (if they're fast enough).

I'm pretty sure that killshot matters.

I like thinking about it like this:
TH1 = Regular items.
TH2 = Rare items.
TH3 = Ex items (like seals in Abyssea)

And then when you get an upgrade it just boosts those or something.

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Originally Posted by Purpleeyes

I like thinking about it like this:
TH1 = Regular items.
TH2 = Rare items.
TH3 = Ex items (like seals in Abyssea)

And then when you get an upgrade it just boosts those or something.

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Doesn't work like that. There is a noticable drop rate increase between TH1 and 2 on all items.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

I'm pretty sure that killshot matters.

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Dunno, I've had double crests in pool on Faeries in La Thiene, and I always killshot on Thf because trying to azure them on whm/sch is a bloody pain.

This whole business of pumping up the TH placebo to higher numbers (that don't appear to actually do anything) reminds me of a great scene in one of my favorite movies - "This is Spinal Tap".

I guess the devs just wanted to turn up TH to eleven.

Proc kills updated:

Aura Statue X200
Procs on statue when it died:
TH6 - 23
TH7 - 88
TH8 - 73
TH9 - 14
TH10 - 2

Drops

Mythril Ore - 104
Diorite - 25
Raxa - 5
Golem Shards - 26

Diorites

TH6 - 3/23
TH7 - 10/88
TH8 - 8/73
TH9 - 3/14
TH10 - 1/2

Mythril Ore:

TH6 - 9/23
TH7 - 53/88
TH8 - 34/73
TH9 - 6/14
TH10 - 2/2

Golem Shard - kill count to keep score @100:

TH6 - 1/100
TH7 - 4/100
TH8 - 5/100
TH9 - 0
TH10 - 0

Raxa

TH6
TH7
TH8 - 4/50
TH9 - 1/50
TH10

Interesting tidbit tonight: I moved to Ulli's area to kill statues. Out of 50 kills, 5 raxa dropped. Mythril ore seemed to take a steep dive in drop rate with only 10 dropping. Shards were about normal with 5. Diorite 3(which is about normal for this spot imo, it's where I did most of my farming before but I chose the other area for more kills and no downtime waiting for repops for the purpose of this testing) Ulli is the last spot I know for certain that raxa were dropping so I moved there.

If these drop rates hold up then I'm not real sure what to do. It gives me a headache just considering that the two spots for them have different rates but for now I'm going to hang around Ulli's area and see what I get out of raxa drops. Old spot 0/370, new spot 5/50.

I was farming Ulli's area for my TH0 sample.

Edit:
Unfortunately, it is known that monsters with the same name in the same zone can have different drop pools. For instance, Ghrah M. Chips can only drop from first floor Ghrah (in both zones), but not second floor Ghrah. This is the first example I've heard of where drop rates vary on the same type of monster within a zone, though you could view the first example as a special case of the second.

Now, tin-foil-hat-ACTIVATE, but if one were to hypothetically look at the .dats, one might see that there's no noticeable difference between top and bottom floor Ghrahs / Aura Statues. Similarly, there's no real reason why monster drop rates couldn't vary between monsters on the same floor. Who would have predicted that Raxa only drops off Aura statues near Ulli's spawn point? Maybe (in addition) it only drops off the third, fifth, and seventh statues at Ulli's spawn point. We could be discovering a whole new sampling problem.

That would be... just... awful. One would have to dat mod monster names to be sure that all of them in that specific area could drop any one item. On low drop rate items like raxa or diorite you would have to get drops off of most of the individual mobs in the area before you could say for sure and that would power suck.

Well on the positive side at least I'm getting raxa to drop for certain now so we can start seeing some serious numbers for it. War/thf will have to stick to the other spot because of statue numbers so I feel certain that by time my sky farming comes to an end in some months into the future, I will know whether or not those suckers drop raxa.

I'm getting started really late today for test 201-250 but I napped earlier so I'm good to go for Sky farming for a few hours. I'm very curious to see drop rates from last night to hold up, though not so much the ore. It's funding my GS mule with mythril ingots for GP :x

Also, I suppose I need to spend some time on /thf at Ulli's area assuming I'll only see raxa there. I guess I'll hit the area up and have something to hold my attention in between respawns. The possibility of skewed drop rates on statues makes comparing numbers to wiki almost pointless.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Unfortunately, it is known that monsters with the same name in the same zone can have different drop pools. For instance, Ghrah M. Chips can only drop from first floor Ghrah (in both zones), but not second floor Ghrah. This is the first example I've heard of where drop rates vary on the same type of monster within a zone, though you could view the first example as a special case of the second.

Now, tin-foil-hat-ACTIVATE, but if one were to hypothetically look at the .dats, one might see that there's no noticeable difference between top and bottom floor Ghrahs / Aura Statues. Similarly, there's no real reason why monster drop rates couldn't vary between monsters on the same floor. Who would have predicted that Raxa only drops off Aura statues near Ulli's spawn point? Maybe (in addition) it only drops off the third, fifth, and seventh statues at Ulli's spawn point. We could be discovering a whole new sampling problem.

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This is depressing on so many levels. It's a really great point, though.

This will be my new post for updating. For now my research previously is retired and starting anew in Ulli camp. War/thf is next for a quick 100 kills for first glance comparison sake. War/thf data will follow THF data for THII numbers for overall comparison once THF is done.


Ulli Camp - Aura Statue x100

Procs:

TH6 - 12
TH7 - 41
TH8 - 40
TH9 - 7
TH10 - 0

Drops:

Raxa - 7/100
Mythril Ore - 26/100
Golem Shard - 13/100
Diorite - 5/100

Diorites

TH6 - 0/12
TH7 - 1/41
TH8 - 3/40
TH9 - 1/7
TH10 - 0/0

Mythril Ore

TH6 - 4/12
TH7 - 8/41
TH8 - 11/40
TH9 - 3/7
TH10 - 0/0

Golem Shard

TH6 - 2/12
TH7 - 8/41
TH8 - 3/40
TH9 - 0/0
TH10 - 0/0

Raxa

TH6 - 0/0
TH7 - 0/0
TH8 - 5/40
TH9 - 2/7
TH10 - 0/0

All of the Ulli results match up almost perfectly with my TH0 sample, assuming no difference between TH2 and TH3 and assuming we know what TH2 does.

WAR/THF - Ulli Camp - Aura Statue x100

Mythril Ore - 21/100
Raxa - 2/100
Diorite - 0/100
Golem Shard - 9/100

Nope, no diorite on me to speak of. That 0/100 is for reals, and I did all 100 at once. Now I go to pass out in bed...

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Originally Posted by noodles355

Going to post my Carabosse data.

19 Carabosse
1st Gem (100%): 19/19
2nd Gem: 16/19

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Partial update. Didn't record every fight as above is only 15 gems. However I'm certain three other fights yielded only one gem, putting it at 9 fights more:
First Gem (100%): 28/28
2nd Gem: 22/28 (78.5% Drop rate.)
Total Gems: 50.

All fights were me tanking on Thf/Nin so anywhere from TH6 to TH9.
Going to compare it to my CC data (which I will update after kills). Not posting +2 mat drops for CC as I yellow proc it every other fight. All CC kills are done on Rdm/Blm and Whm/Thf (TH2).

First Lantern (100%): 7/7
2nd Lantern: 5/7
Total Lanterns: 12

Will be interesting by the time I get to 50 lanterns how different the drop rate will be on the second empy material. Obviously 25-30 kills is a tiny sample size, but it's a start and concerns an actually important drop.

I went 1/12 on 2-shell drop Glavoids when starting Ukon duo tanking it with a TH6 (base) THF. Shit is random and I'm bitter with it.

I went through two Glavoids and Itzs for Twash and Ukon. There's nothing a person says that really helps when you only see 1x drop on that stuff... It just fricking stings when it happens on most visions NMs.

I've been using my stockpile of stones for Byakko lately that I got during testing but I'm all out now so I'll be adding in more TH numbers in the coming days.

Took advantage of everyone EXPing and 2boxed 8 CC pops (2 at a time). Now up to 9/15 on 2nd lantern. 24/50 overall. Again just TH2.

This sounds like a job for the TH testing crew! Raxias recently posted in the forums about geodes and if TH affects the drop rate. Fairly simple test I think, just need 100 mob sample, and a 0 TH control. I suspect geodes to fall in the same loot pool as seals and crests, but could be wrong.

We will probably get something about this in a day or two, but here's a link to an ffxiah translation of something written on the JP official forums.

Apparently it mostly says that TH10 is better than TH9.

I think there might actually be more to this than the post indicates. Perhaps TH10 is the next tier of TH, while TH9 is still the same potency as TH2?

From what I see, all they say is: we killed 500 mobs with TH9 and 500 with TH10 and TH10 was better, whilst in both cases drop rates were slightly higher than expected.
Where's my sample distribution data, where are SD numbers, %RSD numbers, confidence levels?
In 4 hours Camate is going to come here and say TH10>TH9. And I ask: by how much? 1% difference with 95% confidence?
Bananas are more yellow than lemons - wow, thanks for the info!

Edit: To Camate (and whoever did the testing for us), I know you are linguist, not mathematician, but we are talking science here. As soon as you come here and make a claim based on empirical data, the good scientific practice is to backup your claim with your methodology (this part you've kinda done) and data/sample distribution. Until this can be independently reviewed and verified (test repeatability), your claim remains a proposed thesis. The guys in this thread (and other forums) are serious about testing this, show them your data.

Our Community Team counterpart over in Japan, Mocchi, with the aid of the QA team, decided it was time to do his own kind of Myth Busters, FFXI style to determine if the myth about the drop rate of Treasure Hunter 10 being worse than Treasure Hunter 9 was true or not.

They headed out to Mount Zhayolm to slay 1000 Sulphuric Jagils. 500 with Treasure Hunter 9 and an additional 500 with Treasure Hunter 10.

So was it true…or is this just another myth that got busted?

It is NOT true!

1. Is the Treasure Hunter effect really getting stronger like it should?
When the Treasure Hunter effect increased, we checked not only the message displayed, but the actual values that were originally set and found that it was increasing like it should.

2. TH9 vs. TH10
Since it would take a ridiculous amount of time to test this by manually increasing the Treasure Hunter effect to 9 or 10 via attacks and what not, we prepared special equipment that gave us Treasure Hunter+9 and Treasure Hunter+10 and tested it on MNK/WHM, removing all the other equipment. As a result of our testing, we determined that we got more Pugil Scales with Treasure Hunter 10.


Attachment 880
※This is a screenshot from actual testing.



While we don’t want to be the destroyers of anyone’s dreams, let us know if there are any other FFXI myths you would like busted :)

Camate, the super speedy translator :D <3

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Originally Posted by Camate

2. TH9 vs. TH10
Since it would take a ridiculous amount of time to test this by manually increasing the Treasure Hunter effect to 9 or 10 via attacks and what not

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Which basically means you guys are admitting that putting more than TH3 on a mob is useless, which basically means TH+ gear is useless. Give me a reason to bring a thf. (at least you admit TH9+ is useless, so why even implement it, make it cap at TH10).

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Originally Posted by Camate

Our Community Team counterpart over in Japan, Mocchi, with the aid of the QA team, decided it was time to do his own kind of Myth Busters, FFXI style to determine if the myth about the drop rate of Treasure Hunter 10 being worse than Treasure Hunter 9 was true or not.

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That was a myth?

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Originally Posted by Camate

While we don’t want to be the destroyers of anyone’s dreams, let us know if there are any other FFXI myths you would like busted :)

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TH itself is the biggest myth in FFXI present, past and foreseeable future. Clear that up please.

Edit:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Which basically means you guys are admitting that putting more than TH3 on a mob is useless, which basically means TH+ gear is useless. Give me a reason to bring a thf. (at leats you admit TH9+ is useless, so why implement it).

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Wrong inference. They didn't imply that at all. THF has free TH6 at least, 0 time, 0 effort. And do not ask if TH6 is really better than TH3, otherwise they'll waste more time testing useless stuff.

(Also, subbed you only get TH2, not TH3. If you say that TH3 is useful, you just gave yourself a reason to bring a THF.)

I have something I'd liked tested that could be considered a myth. Does moon phase play any role in anything? People say that it's a fact that it helps with synths and fishing (which I can see since the moon phase does affect the tides in the real world,) but drop rates and treasures in a chest? And augments on armor from Field Parchments/Dominion Notes? >_>

(people will call it useless, but I'm just going to leave this question here.)

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Originally Posted by Camate

Since it would take a ridiculous amount of time to test this by manually increasing the Treasure Hunter effect to 9 or 10 via attacks and what not, we prepared special equipment that gave us Treasure Hunter+9 and Treasure Hunter+10 and tested it on MNK/WHM, removing all the other equipment. As a result of our testing, we determined that we got more Pugil Scales with Treasure Hunter 10.


While we don’t want to be the destroyers of anyone’s dreams, let us know if there are any other FFXI myths you would like busted :)

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I see what you did there.

Silly rumors about Treasure Hunter could be eliminated completely if you guys would just give up the act and tell us the numbers behind the trait.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Silly rumors about Treasure Hunter could be eliminated completely if you guys would just give up the act and tell us the numbers behind the trait.

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I believe they/he did this test outside of the dev team's territory. I don't think the dev team would even need to test it, they could just know if it's better or not, unless they're not sure of their own code. Which, thinking about it, would explain a lot..

How about clearing up the myth that Cloudsplitter really sucks as it is?

I think one thing people need to remember when they say thing like "th3/4/5/X give less additional effect than the first tier"- Virtually all job traits give more additional effect on the first level than the extra levels.

Meaning (example):
Store TP I gives +10 Store TP (Benefit over zero Store TP: +10)
Store TP II gives +15 Store TP (Benefit over Store TP I: +5)
Store tp III gives +20 Store TP (Benefit over Store TP II: +5)
... etc

So let's just make up some numbers here so people can understand the implication this has for treasure hunter. Let's just say TH I adds 1 to the percentage drop rate for items. Assuming Treasure Hunter increased in effectiveness in the same manner as other job traits, each additional tier of TH after the first would add only 0.5 to the drop percentages. You're still gaining effectiveness, just at a slower rate than the initial boost.

(Disclaimer: I'm not claiming that TH actually works as described above, I'm only using it to illustrate how additional job trait tiers go.)

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That was a myth?

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There are a lot of people claiming that you can get just as much increased treasure by having a sub THF as by having a main THF and that the extra boost from TH procs and higher level trait on THF doesn't make a difference. Thus, the community team is here to let you know that's BS and that more TH is always better.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

There are a lot of people claiming that you can get just as much increased treasure by having a sub THF as by having a main THF and that the extra boost from TH procs and higher level trait on THF doesn't make a difference. Thus, the community team is here to let you know that's BS and that more TH is always better.

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But Camate/Mocchi said that the myth wasn't that TH9 vs. TH10 makes no difference, but that TH10 was worse than TH9. And that's an absurd claim in any way I can imagine. No one could possibly have the means to test that even semi-reliably. The best base TH we can get is TH7, meaning you'd need 3 upgrades to get TH10. You can only reliably test it on NMs, and where do you get large enough NM samples for that? And I'm not talking low-tier Abyssea NMs, cause they can die faster than Colibris outside of Abyssea. So it would have to be something like 200 KS99 runs, all with TH10, then another 200 KS99 runs. And considering the difference at that high TH level is marginal, even 400 total samples wouldn't be enough to determine anything accurately. There's just no way at all to make any kind of justified claim that TH10 is worse than TH9. It was certainly not worth the effort of people to go test it.

I'm tired of people saying THF and /THF makes no difference, because it does, and it's not too small either. Only individual tiers between those levels don't add up as much as the two tiers before. But saying it like that is what makes people waste their time on pointless tests like this.

No one here really believed that TH10 did literally nothing but Camate's post pretty much confirms that it does functionally nothing and that we are correct in the belief that you are better off having someone /thf and increasing your kill speed than using a THF with TH6 gear for a .1% increase in drops.

How about:

Does the direction you face during synthesis alter success/HQ rates?

Does Moon phase matter?

Day of the week?

How do the Synergized crafting Stalls add up with traditional guild point enhancements?

Does treasure hunter +1 from armor function at all in the same way as the job trait? I recall some very old testing suggesting that TH1 and TH2 function entirely different from each other. As well as spculation that it adds the ability for 2 of a certain item to drop, whereas the same mob will only drop one of that item without TH.

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Originally Posted by Washburn

How about:

Does the direction you face during synthesis alter success/HQ rates?

Does Moon phase matter?

Day of the week?

How do the Synergized crafting Stalls add up with traditional guild point enhancements?

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No... Surely even Camate can't go there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Camate

Our Community Team counterpart over in Japan, Mocchi, with the aid of the QA team, decided it was time to do his own kind of Myth Busters, FFXI style to determine if the myth about the drop rate of Treasure Hunter 10 being worse than Treasure Hunter 9 was true or not.

They headed out to Mount Zhayolm to slay 1000 Sulphuric Jagils. 500 with Treasure Hunter 9 and an additional 500 with Treasure Hunter 10.

So was it true…or is this just another myth that got busted?

It is NOT true!

1. Is the Treasure Hunter effect really getting stronger like it should?
When the Treasure Hunter effect increased, we checked not only the message displayed, but the actual values that were originally set and found that it was increasing like it should.

2. TH9 vs. TH10
Since it would take a ridiculous amount of time to test this by manually increasing the Treasure Hunter effect to 9 or 10 via attacks and what not, we prepared special equipment that gave us Treasure Hunter+9 and Treasure Hunter+10 and tested it on MNK/WHM, removing all the other equipment. As a result of our testing, we determined that we got more Pugil Scales with Treasure Hunter 10.


Attachment 880
※This is a screenshot from actual testing.



While we don’t want to be the destroyers of anyone’s dreams, let us know if there are any other FFXI myths you would like busted :)

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The real question was how many Pugil Scales did Mocchi get with TH9 versus TH10. And what would be the comparison between no TH, TH2, and TH3 natively available to a THF versus TH3 from gear or THF sub and gear.

Don't give me that look. I was trained to design research protocol. >_>