Your idea of a challenge.

SE has used the nerf bat many times. Lets look at PLD they nerfed it to hell and back right before abyssea and when abyssea came out. Mobs that take reduced dmg from atonement, reset hate ever other tp move, nerfing of /rdm. More then one time they nerfed shadows, nerfed rdm tanking, rng nerf, brd song tanking.

Akujima, you never give up, do you?

I think FFXI needs to be WoW Cause WoW is so cool and if FFXI Was like WoW it would be cool too cause WoW is cool.

...

Sarcasm aside, My Idea of challenge... Well, thats an extremely vague question. I guess I like events like Nyzul, where theres an Element of Randomness to it, not a big element, but enough to keep you guessing what the next step would be.

Its hard to make something challenging, without being overly broken in my eyes. Plus, people will complain about "gimics" if you institute something that gives a new level of "Challenge" (Like Raja removing Sub jobs). So, I can't really answer "My idea of Challenge".

I Just want something thats fun and rewarding, that seems like the biggest challenge ever.

Beating a series of missions with a connecting storyline with interesting characters. The missions should entail monsters spawned from ???'s, difficult BCMs with cool backgrounds, negotiating maze-like levels with high level mobs that have ways of spotting you, and riddles and puzzles a la Moogle Kupo de'tat.

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Originally Posted by Panthera

Beating a series of missions with a connecting storyline with interesting characters. The missions should entail monsters spawned from ???'s, difficult BCMs with cool backgrounds, negotiating maze-like levels with high level mobs that have ways of spotting you, and riddles and puzzles a la Moogle Kupo de'tat.

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Don't get me wrong A Moogle Kupo d'etat was a funny story but there were way to many hoops to jump through just to get to the final fight. I don't mind farming Key items, I don't mind puzzles, but having a puzzle, a quiz than a time trial, one right after another was a real pain. Especially with a pick up group. Having to do it 5 times in a row is really a pain. (Lucky for me the group I went with was determined to get it done)

-To me a challenge were the Original non nerfed Promyvion bosses. Even with the right strategy, jobs, and Animas, it still depended on everyone knowing their jobs and executing the strategy perfectly. It also allowed a good mix of jobs for the fight. (1 or 2 SMNs made the fight easier but still not a guaranteed Victory)

Death, Charm, and Hate Resists do not an interesting challenge make, but that's seemingly the best we're thrown at these days. I still miss the thought that when SE first teased about mobs like Cerberus, it'd be three different heads with HP bars, their own hate tables, and so on. Instead, it wound up being a largely unimaginative mob family, and typically perpetuating the One Mob vs. Many Players style that partially negates challenge simply because someone may never look at you or the environment itself poses no challenge.

Most older players think that camping a NM for hours is challenging, spending years to upgrade relics is challenging, waiting months for that certain drop in sky is challenging, news flash its not its just 10x more time consuming! I say to anyone who thinks Abyssea is not challenging to go in with no cruor buffs, atmas or brews then lets see how easy it is.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

Most older players think that camping a NM for hours is challenging, spending years to upgrade relics is challenging, waiting months for that certain drop in sky is challenging, news flash its not its just 10x more time consuming! I say to anyone who thinks Abyssea is not challenging to go in with no cruor buffs, atmas or brews then lets see how easy it is.

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Why don't you?

I mean, you are the one who keeps spouting that, why don't you go in Abyssea and make yourself so bad that you do about as much damage as a level 90 noob with level 30 skills.

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Originally Posted by Panthera

Beating a series of missions with a connecting storyline with interesting characters. The missions should entail monsters spawned from ???'s, difficult BCMs with cool backgrounds, negotiating maze-like levels with high level mobs that have ways of spotting you, and riddles and puzzles a la Moogle Kupo de'tat.

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You realize that apart from the puzzle element, you just described (capped) CoP?

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Death, Charm, and Hate Resists do not an interesting challenge make, but that's seemingly the best we're thrown at these days. I still miss the thought that when SE first teased about mobs like Cerberus, it'd be three different heads with HP bars, their own hate tables, and so on. Instead, it wound up being a largely unimaginative mob family, and typically perpetuating the One Mob vs. Many Players style that partially negates challenge simply because someone may never look at you or the environment itself poses no challenge.

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While i agree, I must ask. What does pose a challenge to you?

I admit myself the question is vague, but given time to think... I don't think its possible to make a good challenge people won't whine "gimic" or "too hard" about. If They added "many v many" fights, It would be like Odin, He summons adds, do people fight them? no the strategy is to have a RDM Dia them and kite until they depop.

I think Its because people will find the easiest way and do it, its obvious most of FFXI Doesn't really want challenge, they want easy fights with the illusion of difficulty. Old FFXI was Easy (not as easy as new FFXI), with the Illusion of difficulty(Drop rate).

The problem with true difficulty is that, if its a single mob, people will eventually find out the best/simplest/easiest way to deal with all the nuances of the fight, and it becomes easy through practice. Mobs like Rani, and Shinryu, when not brewed, Still offer a significant challenge. To those who really want challenge anyway, most people whine challenge then pop a brew anyway.

So its a tricky mob. If us players can't think of a working enemy/event that is a true challenge... Developers are in the same boat.

I made a fun fight on FFXIAH a few months ago, I can post it. It was more of a fake-design fight, but i think it'd be challenging. I'll link it:

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/17...-be/3/#1080999

Put that fight in, and good luck :P! (18 man fight btw, designed for 99 cap) (Looking back its incredibly broken lul)