Avatar's Favor still lackluster

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Originally Posted by Imakun

Difference being GEO has been conceived as a mostly support class with the capability of nuking, while SMN is a pure hybrid job in the sense they can support, nuke and attack physically at the same level (in SE's bizarro world).

The truth is that GEO can't sustain nuking and buffing because Geo spells cost an arm and a leg, and the Luopan has the survivability of wet paper no matter how many buffs and heals you throw at it. Buffing and nuking as a GEO is like summoning a 400+ MP Avatar everytime it dies (except Luopans die faster than Avatars) AND sustain the cost of BP'ing.. not gonna happen.

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It can and does happen. Needs support to make it work no doubt (or just fighting mobs that are Aspir-able), but it's plenty doable. Geo melee says hi too, and it's not some bizarro world wannabe. ;o I'm prolly a bit predisposed in saying this, but Geo really doesn't have much of a weakness at this point. Geo/Blm, /Whm, or /Dnc without proper support and you could end up with some MP issues if you strained your limits, but you really shouldn't be any of those subs without the proper support.

I have to say I haven't tested GEO in any serious event lately (mainly because I had to leave the game for a bit around March and I just got back) and I might be a little old school in the sense that things like a mage meleeing is something completely out of the question for me (because I don't have the equip to do so nor do I have any interest in it but most of all I suck at doing it), so maybe you're right. Things are changing so rapidly it's hard to adjust at times.

Anyway, I do know that GEO is pretty strong now while SMN still has to deal with stupid shenanigans like Favor resets and whatever.. what I'm saying is that I don't understand why the dev team insists in giving us horrible downsides to anything they throw at us. For example, Apogee is an ok mini version of the 1h but the higher cost of BP? I don't see BLM having higher recast times with Manawell, or RDM using more MP with Spontaneity. It may be silly, but it just bugs me that SMN always had to deal with stupid things like this. :\
Avatar's Favor could have been so easy to implement as a simple bonus to a job that is heavily influenced by prejudice and ignorance by the general population, yet we have to struggle against things like BP resetting it, time to build it up etc.. Or the Wards not scaling up with levels like Earthen Ward, Noctoshield and so on. I swear they had no clue when they created the job and still don't have any now, even though the job is A LOT better compared to what it was when I started playing in 2003.

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Originally Posted by Zekander

Sheesh, I didn't mean to stir up the hornet's nest, ultimately I am agreeing with you. Avatar's Favor is one of the many things that should be changed about Summoner.

As for GEOs, I haven't played the job so I don't have any first hand experience with it's capabilities, and the only two I've played with so far have done exactly what I described. Whether this is from lack of effort or lack of knowledge about the job I don't know.

But you also have to be reasonable, Avatar's Favor is not what SMN is built around, It should not be a buff that is competitive with BRD or GEO buffs. I don't believe that setting it permanently at it's current maximum value is reasonable (at least for some summons). Giving out instant +24% double attack or +6 refresh would be at least on par with BRD and GEO buffs. I think instead more attention should be paid to Bloodpacts, improving upon Summoner's original design rather then complaining about a secondary ability, and I know a lot of changes need to be made there to improve SMNs damage and utility.

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Diabolos' Favor refresh isn't even half of what a 3 song bard can do, which is 15 a tick. (cast a 3rd song like paeon with terp on yourself, then cast the 3rd ballad with +2 skill so they replace)

Nice changes are on the horizon for Avatar’s Favor!

The development team is currently looking into making it so instead of reducing the effect of Avatar’s Favor when executing a Blood Pact, it will actually become stronger, and this effect will increase proportionately with Blood Pacts that consume a higher amount of MP. :)

You have a system that promotes swapping out avatars. How does this help out that system?

That's better than the current situation I guess, but why such a complicated system (factoring the MP cost of Blood Pacts) when you could simply make the bonus fixed?
You've been saying that you wanted SMNs to keep avatars out and to swap them often for years. A system that resets the potency each time you swap avatar certainly wouldn't help with that.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Nice changes are on the horizon for Avatar’s Favor!

The development team is currently looking into making it so instead of reducing the effect of Avatar’s Favor when executing a Blood Pact, it will actually become stronger, and this effect will increase proportionately with Blood Pacts that consume a higher amount of MP. :)

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If you mean a sort of inverse of how it is now, where it ticks down and avatar actions boosts it, inactivity leading to it flooring... It's also going to be quite a pain to deal with, it's "worthwhile-ness" hinging on how easy it is to keep "capped" and how strong the buff is given from favor. Too MP intensive and the SMN will lose it's slot anyway to geo and bard due to the summoner being unable to keep it going for a duration. Too weak a buff and it'll be immediately be not worth the effort and we'll still not get the party slot.

While this is nice, especially combined with the increased potency, we still have to switch avatars very often... and this system goes against that idea. Unless the potency is tied to your character, it's going to be constantly resetting.

Furthermore, this begs the question why we even have to build up the potency still.

Regardless, a buff is a buff, and as a Summoner, I'll take anything we can get. I don't want to deter SE from making changes...

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Too MP intensive and the SMN will lose it's slot anyway to geo and bard due to the summoner being unable to keep it going for a duration. Too weak a buff and it'll be immediately be not worth the effort and we'll still not get the party slot.

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I dunno about too MP intensive; we're already trying to use our Blood Pacts as much as possible and our MP gets eaten. Summoner has always been about MP, and this favor change synergizes with Apogee. Currently, I can manage my MP mostly fine with tools like siphon, convert and refresh. Obviously in a party scenario I'm going to burn MP even harder, but I never get ballad from bards or other things cause I'm usually solo. I imagine in these scenarios, it wouldn't be much of a problem.

The direction they're taking Summoner seems to be one in which we are extremely MP hungry and trade MP for power (support, damage), what with all the new siphon gear and such. I, for one, don't mind this, if it means we actually do get power for it, and with the favor change, we are being encouraged to do so. Apogee now turns into a very useful JA for both buffing our favor and just using more Blood Pacts. The whole MP thing is actually very interesting, I like that they're actually adding a nice gameplay system like that, though the favor part is still seemingly partially flawed (as stated at the start of my post).

As for "too weak of a buff", we don't know the buff potency yet. Beyond that, if they still plan on adding all the new support blood pacts like they stated (Hastega II) and making others scale with your avatar level/summoner skill (as they said), we can be worth the party slot. We just have to wait and see.

the issue is other jobs do way better damage without having to finick around with MP. Not sure how making SMN even more MP starved helps at all. I dunno though, I'm just a noob SMN, but it seems to me anything that makes SMN harder to keep a consistent damage output isn't going to help... but then again, I am open to being told otherwise... just seems like SMN is going to have a hard time competing with other buffers for a slot especially with the buff being so finicky and requiring massive MP upkeep.

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Originally Posted by Olor

the issue is other jobs do way better damage without having to finick around with MP. Not sure how making SMN even more MP starved helps at all. I dunno though, I'm just a noob SMN, but it seems to me anything that makes SMN harder to keep a consistent damage output isn't going to help... but then again, I am open to being told otherwise... just seems like SMN is going to have a hard time competing with other buffers for a slot especially with the buff being so finicky and requiring massive MP upkeep.

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To be honest, the only downside is the constant swapping of avatars, other than that the BP usage will be no different than it is now.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Nice changes are on the horizon for Avatar’s Favor!

The development team is currently looking into making it so instead of reducing the effect of Avatar’s Favor when executing a Blood Pact, it will actually become stronger, and this effect will increase proportionately with Blood Pacts that consume a higher amount of MP. :)

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Because the way I read it the higher the cost, the greater the boost. Which for example: Garuda - We're going to be using Wind Blade and Predator Claws at lvl 75+, It'll be rare that we use the level 1 Claw ability. You tack on Whispering Wind, Hastega, or any new BP we may get, then it's even more of a boost. Not really gonna see a change in that.

But perhaps, it'll boost it to the cap faster (Not that I believe we should have to build, but this is a start.)