err... sure... I guess... I don't recall ever commenting on that point with you. That post was specifically to Ziyyigo, where it was stated that they never claimed SoA would run on XP, and the published specs call for a post-XP OS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarick
I figured most everyone already understood SE's stance on refunds, so didn't see much point in discussing that. No harm in asking for it I guess, just don't be shocked if/when they decline.
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03-17-2013, 10:14 AMRAIST
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03-17-2013, 10:47 AMZiyyigo-TipyigoAnd yet somehow I managed not to go into full Internet Lawyer Mode. Maybe it's because I'm confident enough in my ability to support XP on my own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarick
Yay, conspiracy theory time!Quote:
I don't think you understand what's really happening.
So S-E is now theQuote:
If everyone was to upgrade to a new OS etc. do you think they'd assist everyone in these upgrades? The answer is hell no, it's not their problem to keep customers. You see, they've already blindly abandon some customers when they made that announcement.
WhiteYellowZilart Devil because they won't buy you a new Windows license?
XP is in the "security patches only" phase of support. Microsoft doesn't sell it any more. You can't buy a new system with XP pre-installed any more, either. Hell, it's tough to find even hardware accessories currently for sale with XP drivers available. The world has moved on. S-E can't be expected to offer more support than even Microsoft itself is giving.
You know what's really evil? They don't support WINE! ZOMG paying customers arglebargle!
The PS2 is still being supported in Japan because profit > cost. The ease of pushing out an expansion in the game's native code combined with the broader JP PS2 user base = ¥¥¥Quote:
The PS2 is still being supported in Japan because it's favored.
10 IF costOfSupport > incomeFromCustomer THEN answer = TRUEQuote:
Do you seriously think cutting corners and abandoning existing customers is going to increase the value of this game world?
whatisthisidontevenQuote:
a faux to lore in people
Utilize the synergies! Six Sigmas!Quote:
It's not like the clients are going to have resources invested to bring it up to 2015 standards.
20 IF gameBehavior = asPerManual THEN support = TRUEQuote:
This is what FULLY supporting windows 8 truly means.
Seriously, by those standards not only is Microsoft itself barely "fully supporting" Windows 8, but S-E never "fully supported" Vista or 7, since the POL launcher for Media Center never got ported over from XP.
Just because your money-printing machine is spitting out $5's instead of $100's doesn't mean it's worthless.Quote:
If this game is that old and they aren't expanding the new user base then whats the point?
30 GOTO 10Quote:
Throwing away a single customer even for petty a issue isn't wise management.
Who cares? The only possible issues the NA PS2 version would have that the JP PS2 version wouldn't are text formatting issues.Quote:
I can assume the English PS2 software hasn't been tested fully for a long time even though the game still claim to support it.
Meanwhile, Windows 6.x is a completely different operating system from Windows 5.x, which broke backwards compatibility so much that Microsoft shoehorned an entirely virtualized XP install into Windows 7 Pro.
Meanwhile, good luck finding DOS drivers for your sound card. ZOMG paying customers arglebargle!
Or maybe it's because letting the NA PS2 players persist in a pre-Adoulin existence literally costs S-E nothing. All the heavy lifting was done to support JP PS2, and everybody connects to the same servers. Hell, it'd probably cost money to find a way for the servers to discriminate against only NA PS2 login attempts.Quote:
This is probably deeply rooted to an agreement with Sony long ago that would cause legal implications if they was to officially announce dropping PS2 support with original expansions.
And most lone voices in the wilderness are just crazy people shouting at trees.Quote:
Most players simply can't grasp whats truly going on here.
Put the Ayn Rand book down.Quote:
Sorry, the smart people aren't sheep and shouldn't be treated as such because they have negative foresight.
Work costs money.Quote:
It's just anti-productive to throw away good things if things can be done to work around them.
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03-19-2013, 01:03 AMSarickYou still don't get it. every time people get comfortable with things another bomb gets dropped as a result of bad management choices. You seem to be under the impression that this game is free to begin with. You've been supporting a stance that even though people are paying for services the acceptable amount of return investment should keep declining.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
The cut backs are like a person cannibalizing themselves for food. Cut here cut there remove something else to survive another day, eventually there will be nothing left to eat. Last I checked the public FF opinions aren't very positive these days. There are logical reasons for this when the public isn't happy. People aren't happy, cost reduction and denial clearly isn't a surviving solution.
Seriously, it isn't the customers fault when they're thrown a bone after ordering from an expensive restaurant. What are people paying for? Stop defending the "lack of resources" because they've chosen to reinvest elsewhere. FFXI is clearly making a profit or they wouldn't have tried making FFXIV or kept adding expansions. It's not like the lord of the rings movies that lost money and continued to get sequels. Here people are paying a premium subscription every month. Losing them forever is never a good management investment especially if they can't get them back.
Do you think this is the first and last time things like this have been done? Do you forget so easily? Can you even acknowledge that things like these severely hurt the confidence of the valued customers? Bad choices keep happening time and time again. There is always someone to stand up and blindly defend them for the sake of damage control. You do realize this isn't the first time right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
You seem to have forget a few things here or fail to recognize the differences between the OS and the subscription service. With the OS you pay once and they support the product through it's lifetime. In a subscription the client support keeps getting funded as long as the customers keep paying for services. By dropping support they're still making the same money but no longer fully supporting the customer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
The OS should be able to run without updates on the same hardware regardless of how old it is unless technical advancements are made to make it incompatible. If it isn't broken don't fix it because it doesn't need to be fixed. The only thing that would break an OS is "newer" software can't be added to it or external developments migrate away from it such as Internet.
Microsoft hasn't officially ended support yet so a wise developer could continue to support development of software for that operating system until it's official end of life. Instead SE falsely announced that Microsoft ended XP support completely so they was following suit. It might have been a mistranslation but still it was said. In truth it was probably done to cut support cost and have a higher profit margin after the fact. It really has nothing to do with the OS being obsolete IMHO.
FFXI was designed to run on XP, it runs best on XP, this is why people installed it on XP. Suddenly they make this announcement and throw everyone using it into the cold. You think I'm typing this message from an XP based system? No it's a windows 7 laptop that I personally upgraded after wiping everything on it first. I know the whole process and the investment required to push a new patch. Look at it from a a corporate standpoint, when big companies switch over to another OS it's a nightmare in the IP department.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
They might have made a slight miscalculation when they made this choice. I think they're forgetting that some customers might quit or the added load of players installing INTO into a new OS calling in. Yes this will also cost resources. I doubt this service will be very effective no matter what they do support or don't support.
It's more like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
IF CostOfSupport < RandomiseIncomeFromCustomer THEN answer = TRUE
Are you sure they're losing money or just trying to save money by cutting corners? Remember we're working with bean counters who crunch numbers not people who actually seem to care about what makes the the clients happy to promote positive growth. No matter what happens the agenda is the same. Always try to push customers in a direction they might not want to go to get a big short term profit.
Look at it this way if you keep people happy they keep coming back and in turn supporting you making more money. If you upset them to save money in the long run it might come back and bite you in the arse when they leave making you even less money then you saved in the cuts.
When the customers began to realize the bean counters would rather cannibalize things then reinvest in making people happy or content they start leaving for greener pastures. Making people happy is a good investment if it's profitable. It allows for positive growth. Making people unhappy has the opposite effect. As things get worse people leave, you cut more, more people leave, cycle continues until catastrophic collapse.
Do you understand that constantly making excuses for the lack of resources won't result in more available resources when they keep cutting services etc? I have my doubts about how they could improve things if the budget keeps taking hits.
I think I explained the differences here in the first paragraph. Microsoft themselves claimed it was the customers choice how they run their systems. Yet when bata testers found a simple regedit hack method to revert metro interface back to the original start menu style they intentionally programmed a way to DISABLE it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
Now to get the old feel customers who buy windows 8 need to install unsupported 3rd party applications just to have that environment. This shoves the unwanted metro interface down the mouths of the customers despite them hating it. By doing so it's effectively holding back the reason for people to migrate out of want instead of need. People should want to upgrade because of advancements not be forced to because of corporate greed or brute force.
This is a prime example of what I've been trying to say. Despite the customers wishes they choose to push forward without allowing people remain content. In the long run brute force doesn't always work eventually something bad happens. Will they break XP?. Will it cost the customers who use XP? Will it cost them subscribers? Will it matter to them if they start losing money because it?
All these could be answered with YES/NO depending on future choices. You see based on the way bean counters usually work if they start losing money they cut funding instead of fixing the problems. It creates a downward spiral that eventually leads to a collapse. In this case the management is obviously cannibalized some of its funding into another failed project.
Like it or not you seem to think that cutting cost will lead to a more productive environment. I think you're wrong because if they continue canalizing of the funding it won't lead to a better game like you think. You're just accepting less but still paying the same fees.
Only a gullible person thinks the cuts will result in investments elsewhere in FFXI at this point. Based on experience of the past few years of FFXI development do you see there is only one way things are really headed? Did the failure of FFXIV, the decrease in game population, decrease in system support, decrease in compatibility the decrease in development staff, or support standards even get acknowledged?
I'm being pessimistic because of the real experience I've had with this games management. I don't know why your being an optimist. Most people know they've been cutting funding for a long time to reduce overhead. It's very obvious where things are headed. Simple solution, if things are going downhill they need to up their game and make this game awesome so people have a reason for staying. This way people invest more into FFXI. To put it bluntly support cuts are a bad sign of things to come no matter how they explain them.
So if an XP system is functioning fine and spitting out $100's it should be upgraded anyway to spit out $5's because $100 is hard to break when you make a purchase. It shouldn't matter to them if people continue using XP as long as it keeps customers happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
By making this announcement they've officially thrown some paying players a bone with no meat. Most players can obliviously afford several FFXI subscriptions but at what cost should they re-invest subscribing if things continue in this direction? You aren't thinking long term.
Some players upgraded from PS2 thinking that this game would have continued client support as long we kept paying for it. After making that first adjustment to PC it wasn't enough for them to cut PS2 because just after doing that they decided to throw a second punch while our backs where turned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
As for the PS2, they've unofficially dropped full support completely for all PS2's. The evidence is there when critical issues still exist and have existed over a year. When customers contact support they get a run around about the CS black screens of death. Usually it's about firewalls and ports.
In reality it's because they didn't fix the things updates broke and the reply is a ruse to shift responsibility. They just haven't officially announced this but, a rocket scientist isn't needed to figure this out. PS2 compatibly was still announced in Japan to save face for the loses of subscriber base. As for the English versions they didn't want to invest in translation, production and testing I can see why but they wasn't supporting it to begin with if stuff is still broken from 2010.
I'm sure Sony wouldn't be happy if clients reported the original software failed to pass quality test on the PS2 and the NEW expansion didn't fix these issues.
Who says my systems aren't fully windows 7 compatible? XP isn't defunct it's one of the best OS updates since DOS. It' still a workhorse. Windows 7 is more advanced and seems acceptable but isn't as fast performance wise as XP for this purpose. Why would should it need updated if it works? Is it because sheep should blindly follow trends even if it backs them into corners.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
No it would cost them money they'd have to either invest in a huge amount of PS2 downloads over the internet or create an expansion disk. XP support isn't the same. It's mostly giving confidence that SE has their backs and will fix things if they break them. Instead of giving support they've dropped it because it's something they'd rather ignore then support. It'll cut back on calls to the support center when 1000's of people flood them in march from the expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
They can detect clients despite the developer saying otherwise every time the system client connects for a patch its version is detected. When it attempts to update it calls the server and comperes the version with that systems set. It then downloads the right update table specifically for that client. This data is obviously logged somewhere dispute the DEVs statements that they don't know what clients are being used.
As for detection It's the GM's who can't detect the client behind the server. When a client initially connects it passively gives away that info when it updates by automatically downloading it's update patches. Seriously, why would a PS2 actively download a PC or XBOX patch. It doesn't take 1+1 = 2 for the server to realize hey, this is X client because only X client would download it's compatible update.
I don't know if this is logged or not but it's a simple passive way to record what clients are being run on connection. If the server transferred this info to the character account logs it would be an easy way to surmise the clients install base.
I'm just pointing out that you shouldn't get comfortable with things because you could be next in line for a surprise intervention yourself. I could be preaching to the sky because you seem oblivious that nothing going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
Subscriptions cost money to pay for work that feeds people who work for money or added development. This game isn't free. This is the cycle of business if one is cut or starts losing money because of bad choices then another suffers. You can't always cannibalize things and think they will always come out better without losing the full scope of the investment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
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03-22-2013, 05:29 AMSarick
I saw this on another Forum. Hope it might answer a few things for players. :
If this is inaccurate will a support rep step up and explain fact or fake? If you don't answer you'll keep the confused user base confused. We need official conformation with an actual support response.Quote:
For those that say, OMG, am I going to be able to play Seekers on a xp comp; I saw that xp wasn't on it Day 1 when I preordered, called Square Support over Skype and asked. YES, it'll install and run.
Doing this is a huge investment if you own multiple systems.:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16832116983
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16832116984
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16832116716 -
03-24-2013, 10:17 AMTohihroyu
I know i'm repeating myself but:
FFXI...a 10+ year old game's new expansion is not compatible with XP, and says officially they will give support for the OS that has the most problems with said game.
FFXIV a new (well its technically a few years old) HQ, HD game IS compatible with XP.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-30_E15ANDQ...FullOfFuck.jpg -
03-25-2013, 10:01 AMSarickQuote:
Originally Posted by Tohihroyu
Logic is not logical, as you can see there was no response to my post. They already decided to not respond before the 26th when they can't answer it. -
03-25-2013, 09:41 PMElizaraI was the one who actually did that: I didn't record the call but I was very honest about what he told me at the time, so it's not fake. If people want, I'll redo the call later today and look into recording it..tho no promises on that. I got a funeral to go to (my mom died) and I'm not sure if I'll be home in time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarick
Since at best and if all goes well, I got 2 more months before I can get the $$ to get the parts for a new pc, I'm hoping that support rep wasn't lyin'. Rather not buy Windows 7 for a pc I'm planning on replacing, it just takes me for bloody ever to scrounge up the money. -
03-26-2013, 02:30 AMSarickIt's all good thank you for making that post! Anyway, I'm sure XP users will find out soon enough if it really installs. No disrespect, I'm not calling you a liar. It's just that SE has been known to give out conflicting information in the past depending on what staff is contacted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizara
I'm also sorry to hear about your mother it's always very tragic. If it's any consolation my dad died when I was only 13 in a horrible tragic truck crash where a locomotive engine he had hooked up completely crashed the cab he was in. He ran an out of control truck into a brick covered mountainside instead of rolling it.
It wasn't his fault the brakes failed on that long hill but, if he choose a different path to save his life and roll the load away from the cab a school bus full of students on the way to school waiting at the intersection below would've died. I know all to well the distress of a close parents death can be so take some time away from FFXI to heal.
So please! I can't stress this enough don't worry yourself about recording a silly conversation especially, since the expansion is nearly already out and you've experienced a traumatic loss of a parent. IMHO, You need to heal a bit before dealing with this game and it's state. I don't think anyone would want you to invest this time for FFXI over a real life family who desperately needs your love and emotional support.
The XP announcement was a shock but the loss of a close relative should always take a front seat. Anyone who thinks otherwise shouldn't be playing this MMO. I realize I don't know you but, please accept my sincere acknowledgment of your personal loss. God speed in you/your families emotional recovery. -
03-26-2013, 10:26 AMElizara
Sarick, (Sorry mods for the off topic) thank you. It's been rough for what's left of my family and I haven't been playing as much lately b/c I needed to be with my brothers and sister (Heck, have been missing Legion lately; the leads of my shell have been very understanding and I..just haven't been able to deal with that event right now) but I even did a little cry/hug session in game for my friends and me. I mean, what bites a friend, bites you too.
It just went so fast, she died of chemo complications; was a horrible way to go :(
And here's to hoping that rep was right. I don't wanna wait 2 months to play Seekers. ^^ -
03-26-2013, 10:56 AMDragoy><)))°€
To me, it seems rather silly to even think that they would downright 'block' WinXP users from playing the expansion/game altogether. I'd probably be willing to bet on that this is not the case (if I had some money fer it). So I'd say: relax, yo!
As was mentioned by others, I'd also imagine that it simply means they can free some time and money off for some more important things (yeah, I said it). No, I'm not saying Win8 is one (/stagger). I've used (Gentoo) Linux myself for soon 2 and a half years, and have no intention to go back to the Windows camp, even if it means I wont get official support with OS-specific problems (which are quite rare, believe it or not, and if such things happen to arise, they are rather quickly solved by either me, or others doing the same thing).
So even if you were to be 'cut off', there's definitely no need to buy a new OS just for FFXI (or FFXIV, et al). <wink>
Here's the disclaimer for when I am wrong, and they will actually cut the XP-user off: these are just my opinions and guesstimates, and I acknowledge that there is such a possibility.
But really... eyyy!