No. People who don't want to craft now probably aren't going to craft even if leveling crafts becomes reasonable. Nothing will change that, at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Don't believe me?
Final Fantasy XIV has a crafting level system that's cheap, easy and reasonable. 1-50 can be done in the same amount of time it takes to level any job in Final Fantasy XI, probably less in many cases.
And yet many people still don't have crafting leveled there. It would much the same here, as well.
No more guild holidays.
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01-16-2013, 06:36 PMTrisscar
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01-18-2013, 05:57 AMdetlef
On the topic of guilds, they should sell everything all the time, and the stock and price of items should not be influenced by how many people bought the previous day. Way back when, people would camp the WW guild to buy the one stack of arrowwood lumber. Or camp the cloth guild for silk thread or wamoura cocoons. It was stupid then and it is stupid now. It's also idiotic that after a maintenance, prices are maxed out and all the additional items for sale (from people selling to guild) become unavailable again.
Making more items available from npcs would also help to remove gil from circulation. I'm not sure I have enough scorn to direct at the crafting guild vendors but rest assured I am scowling very hard in Japan's general direction. -
01-18-2013, 07:07 AMRusticHahahahahahaha....no.Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
They camped that limit because it was easy profit compared to the normal flow of supplies. Make it unlimited and that places a hard limit on pricing, because you generally won't be able to sell higher than the basic guild prices. Unlimited supply = capped demand prices. Bye bye HELM entirely at that point for most items. RMT would be able to literally flood the game on a huge pile of crafted items that right now actually make crafting a reasonable and profitable endeavour. It'd also require a repricing on tons of items that unlimited supply = infinite sell-to-NPC chains- which your RMT would exploit the nth degree in the process as well.
If you'd LIKE to kick the FFXI economy so hard in the crystals it sings soprano...by all means, implement something like that. I'm old enough to remember what happens when RMT crafters get their hands on a supply chain. -
01-18-2013, 08:58 AMdetlefYes, I'm aware that it may have been worth camping the guild to resell on AH in the past. What specific items are you talking about in the last sentence of your quote? Are you worried that people will not be able to sell iron ingots on the AH anymore?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic
Do people still HELM? I mean really, do they? The only things I can think of that are worth HELMing for are things like dragonfruit and imperial tea leaves. That is, things that aren't sold at the guild anyway. You must be talking strictly about low-level crafting right? Low-level crafting has always been and always will be reasonably profitable because high level crafters have better things to do with their time. Also, most people will not bother hitting up the guild if a given item is reasonably priced on the AH, even if it means paying a little more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic
Are you referring to something specific here? Do you mind giving an example?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic
You have a pretty extreme outlook over something that is relatively minor. If this is what kills FFXI's economy (and not rusty caps, tavnazia npcs, hakuryu, or blinkers), then I will eat my hat and perhaps a second hat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic
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01-19-2013, 01:38 AMRusticSilk thread, saruta cotton, etc. etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
I walked into Zerhun Mines the other day with a few stacks (4) of pickaxes in field gear (gloves and boots).Quote:
Do people still HELM? I mean really, do they? The only things I can think of that are worth HELMing for are things like dragonfruit and imperial tea leaves. That is, things that aren't sold at the guild anyway. You must be talking strictly about low-level crafting right? Low-level crafting has always been and always will be reasonably profitable because high level crafters have better things to do with their time. Also, most people will not bother hitting up the guild if a given item is reasonably priced on the AH, even if it means paying a little more.
I came out with about 80K in iron and brass ingots (and a single silver ingot). Not bad for zero risk and something a newbie can do, enough in fact to get most newbies squarely on their feet gearwise. Kiss that sorta thing goodbye if you simply make the guild an unlimited fount of ore and such. Is it L99 money? Of course not. Is it one good way to get a new player on their feet? Absolutely. Kicking more and more of those out of the system isn't helpful.
The classic example was, of all things, carrot broth- which S-E promptly trimmed down the resale on. Basically, take plentiful supplies, make items with high resale value to NPCs, rinse, repeat.Quote:
Are you referring to something specific here? Do you mind giving an example?
You have a pretty extreme outlook over something that is relatively minor. If this is what kills FFXI's economy (and not rusty caps, tavnazia npcs, hakuryu, or blinkers), then I will eat my hat and perhaps a second hat.
A really simple (and relatively minor) example is green ribbons. Costs a bit less than 1800G to make from guild supplies, NPCs for about 2200. Oh, and while you're at it, RMT would also end up with the market on the sneak/invis ninja tools, since all the materials are available at the guild shop. Just for starters.
Buy from NPC -> make item -> sell to NPC at profit = RMT Gil generator. That's been a fact since I first played in 2003. S-E's been good about stomping on those of late, but the sheer number of options that an unlimited guild supply chain would produce would be a genuine pain to the FFXI economy, and I don't want that. -
01-19-2013, 03:49 AMdetlef
Saruta cotton and silk thread are good examples, but back in the day you could only buy a single saruta cotton at max guild price (I don't quite recall about the silk threads). Certainly, that is not a good situation for anybody. As it is, people can make essentially unlimited amounts of Velvet Cloth which is still incredibly profitable for the effort. I think the current system hurts players.
Regarding Zeruhn Mines, I think the only worthwhile ores are iron and zinc. Zinc isn't sold at guilds (I'm not sure if they buy/sell zinc after you sell to them first) so that will always be profitable. Iron ore is already sold from a regular npc in addition to the guild npcs. Silver ore is almost always available readily from the GS guild at about 315 gil a pop. So I don't see how your mining expedition would be affected by increasing guild npc stock.
Green Ribbons are something I'm aware of but hadn't thought of. Yes, you could get a little thing going there if you had the time and patience (and synthesis time has been cut down drastically so even more so). SE has been good at extinguishing this kind of RMT activity as of late, but I do think when they do it also has a negative impact on legitimate players.
Overall, I would argue that RMT isn't much of an issue these days. Yeah, they've gotten increasingly desperate, selling gil for $8.99 in unsolicited /tells. But aside from that annoyance, you're very unlikely to have your day impacted in any way by RMT. -
01-19-2013, 05:36 AMRusticAgain, it'll crush profit to the nth degree by making the supplies unlimited. You'll just see people sitting there pumping out velvet and silk cloth until heck freezes over. Supply will finally really meet demand- as it is, silk is a gathered resource rather than a simply bought one, which means there's actually economy related to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
Depends on whether they allow sales of all the items the guild CAN sell. If you sell the guild zinc ore, it'll allow people to buy it- which means if they make guild shops sell unlimited items...that would likely include zinc ore.Quote:
Regarding Zeruhn Mines, I think the only worthwhile ores are iron and zinc. Zinc isn't sold at guilds (I'm not sure if they buy/sell zinc after you sell to them first) so that will always be profitable. Iron ore is already sold from a regular npc in addition to the guild npcs. Silver ore is almost always available readily from the GS guild at about 315 gil a pop. So I don't see how your mining expedition would be affected by increasing guild npc stock.
At that point, the market for zinc ore goes in the toilet.
The reason RMT aren't as effective now is because S-E's not letting stuff like gil-making machines stay around (blinkers being the latest such entity crushed). Ribbons = RMT gil generator, given unlimited funds. The end result would be ribbons being crushed in sale price- and hey, more player harm that way.Quote:
Green Ribbons are something I'm aware of but hadn't thought of. Yes, you could get a little thing going there if you had the time and patience (and synthesis time has been cut down drastically so even more so). SE has been good at extinguishing this kind of RMT activity as of late, but I do think when they do it also has a negative impact on legitimate players.
Overall, I would argue that RMT isn't much of an issue these days. Yeah, they've gotten increasingly desperate, selling gil for $8.99 in unsolicited /tells. But aside from that annoyance, you're very unlikely to have your day impacted in any way by RMT.
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01-22-2013, 06:06 AMyankeestom
Just to clarify, this thread was not intended to suggest changes in what or how much of an item a guild will have in stock. It is about guild shops being closed for no good reason. Limited stock I can understand; waiting an hour for the stupid shop to open just so I can find out that there's no stock is just a waste of my time and patience.
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01-22-2013, 07:15 AMCamiieWhat really kills RMT is lessening the demand for gil. If players don't feel the "need" to buy it, then the RMT can farm/bot/exploit till their fingers are worn down to bloody nubs and it won't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic
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01-23-2013, 01:20 AMRusticHeh, I forget a lot of people don't remember how RMT generated one of the hyperinflation surges in FFXI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camiie
Back in the day, stuff like rusty cap fishbotting and the like gave RMT a considerable pool of Gil to work with, beyond what they were selling to players. Some black-hearted genius in their ranks got the diabolical idea to start manipulating market prices in the AH with it on a massive scale. They'd buy-sell-buy everything in sight rapid-fire by passing it between mules, blanking out lower prices and replacing them with artificially inflated ones- I can remember at one point as a clothcrafter sitting there buying spider webs at thousands less than someone buying them at the same time- when the price history at the start was thousands lower than what the RMTer was paying. The stock depleted, and on a whim, I started trying to buy at 1 Gil.
Periodically, I'd actually get one- so the price history looked like 6000-6000-6000-1-6000-6000-6000-1...until they realized I was sitting there hosing the deal and they stopped. An hour later, they'd wiped the price history clear again and had the sales showing at the inflated rate. I started keeping an eye on other stuff. Sure enough, the same pattern emerged elsewhere, repeatedly.
Multiply that effort by nearly every high-speed-selling item they could find, and you saw a steady increase in the "cost of living"...which after a short while, regular players helped push along. They needed stuff, things were more expensive, so THEY were marking their prices higher too! After all, most people had no idea there was a concerted effort to cause AH inflation. The result: buying Gil became much more tempting, and more of it.
Sure enough, the price of RMT Gil also started to creep up in advertisements being spammed at you by random accounts, including ones they'd hijack from legit players on occasion. It was the straw that broke the camel's back- S-E's efforts to stomp on RMT became much bigger shortly afterwards, resulting in the anti-RMT team and procedures we know today.
All from having enough Gil handy from RMT-style processing that sold straight to vendors.