/SCH or SCH main Concerning Accession.

Scholar sure as hell should get Haste natively and it sure as hell should stack with Accession.
Embrava gives us Accession Haste at level 5 for crying out loud. I'm going to enjoy shouting this down SE's throat for the next year or so with no results.

Well, the logic that we shouldn't do better with a subjob spell is fairly flawed anyway. Remember Lv.75? I don't remember Red Mage ever having Gravityga, or Blindga, Bindga, Bioga and so on. Wait why am I mentioning Enfeebles? One word: Phalanx.

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Originally Posted by Sotek

Scholar sure as hell should get Haste natively and it sure as hell should stack with Accession.
Embrava gives us Accession Haste at level 5 for crying out loud. I'm going to enjoy shouting this down SE's throat for the next year or so with no results.

Well, the logic that we shouldn't do better with a subjob spell is fairly flawed anyway. Remember Lv.75? I don't remember Red Mage ever having Gravityga, or Blindga, Bindga, Bioga and so on. Wait why am I mentioning Enfeebles? One word: Phalanx.

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No more flawed then the logic something SCH has should be better than /subjob, it has the cripple required in the triped recast time and only two charges, even as a SCH, I'm against any spells being uniquely accessionable.

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Originally Posted by Sotek

Well, the logic that we shouldn't do better with a subjob spell is fairly flawed anyway.

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Indeed.

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Remember Lv.75? I don't remember Red Mage ever having Gravityga, or Blindga, Bindga, Bioga and so on. Wait why am I mentioning Enfeebles? One word: Phalanx.

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Or Stoneskin, SCH didn't get Stoneskin naturally back then, needed /WHM or /RDM to gain access to it. (unless I'm wrong? D: )

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

No more flawed then the logic something SCH has should be better than /subjob, it has the cripple required in the triped recast time and only two charges, even as a SCH, I'm against any spells being uniquely accessionable.

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This confuses me, though maybe I'm just tired.

Accession shouldn't have any limitations on subjob. It should work exactly the same for subjob as it does for Scholar main, I'd even remove the stupid triple recast. If SE didn't want it to be a subjob ability they could have stuck it at a higher level (that argument is more for Innin/Yonin and Afflatus though, since they were added updates before the cap rise). It should work with spells Scholar doesn't get, Cure V, Addle, Temper, any spell that should work with Accession should regardless of what spell it is. If they're not going to do that I wish they'd just change the description on Stratagems (because pretty much all of them are false) to remove the "of your next healing or enhancing white magic spell" and just have it say white or black magic spell, since they've decided to ignore those specifications and even further nit-pick on spells. Maybe Accession should be "Extends the effect of your next healing or enhancing white magic spell, except some healing and enhancing spells and only if Scholar main can cast the spell, to party members within range.", bit of a mouth full though.

This seems somewhat irrelevant though, I can still Accession over a dozen spells I can only access through subjob - Haste should be no different now that I can access it from two separate subjobs.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

No more flawed then the logic something SCH has should be better than /subjob, it has the cripple required in the triped recast time and only two charges, even as a SCH, I'm against any spells being uniquely accessionable.

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I can understand your stance on SCH vs /SCH, not saying I agree but I can understand it.

Your opinion on the point me and Sotek quoted you makes little sense instead.
FFXI is full of jobs who make better use of JAs/Spells than the job they originally come from.
SCH is one of these examples and has always been like that since it was first introduced, it's part of its "nature".
So I can accept you being against SCH able to accession Haste, but you need to find another reason than "no way SCH can make a spell from another job more effective than it already is on those other jobs".

As for my position on SCH having a couple of uniquely accessionable spells, my argument about it is that I would probably have been against it (for consistancy reason) back at 75 when SCH was the only one who could accession things, and it was part of its unique-ness.
Now everybody can accession stuff, /SCH is more powerful than ever, SCH lost what used to be the main noticeable peculiarity it had (the ability to make spells into AoE) and the 3x recast is not a difference big enough imho.
Having a couple of spells accessionable only by SCH would bring some of that feeling back into SCH.

If their argument against accession+haste is "would be too powerful" then I can agree with such argument if we're talking about all jobs going /SCH, but giving this only to SCH wouldn't be much different to the 3+ mins Hastega that Summoners already get.

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Originally Posted by Sotek

Accession shouldn't have any limitations on subjob. It should work exactly the same for subjob as it does for Scholar main, I'd even remove the stupid triple recast. If SE didn't want it to be a subjob ability they could have stuck it at a higher level

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I couldn't agree more, I hate these inconsistencies >_>
Their reasoning behind the triple recast timer probably was "/SCH is gonna get too powerful and SCH will lose the most unique thing they had so far, let's gimp it a bit so that SCH can still continue to feel special", but this has proved to be an uneffective way to pursue their goal, imho.

Still, this is the scenario we find ourselves in and it's unlikely to change, so in THIS scenario I find myself wishing to get the things we talked about in my previous posts.

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Originally Posted by Sotek

This confuses me, though maybe I'm just tired.

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Basically, If SCH can Accession it all jobs that can use it should be able too.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

I can understand your stance on SCH vs /SCH, not saying I agree but I can understand it.

Your opinion on the point me and Sotek quoted you makes little sense instead.
FFXI is full of jobs who make better use of JAs/Spells than the job they originally come from.
SCH is one of these examples and has always been like that since it was first introduced, it's part of its "nature".
So I can accept you being against SCH able to accession Haste, but you need to find another reason than "no way SCH can make a spell from another job more effective than it already is on those other jobs".

As for my position on SCH having a couple of uniquely accessionable spells, my argument about it is that I would probably have been against it (for consistancy reason) back at 75 when SCH was the only one who could accession things, and it was part of its unique-ness.
Now everybody can accession stuff, /SCH is more powerful than ever, SCH lost what used to be the main noticeable peculiarity it had (the ability to make spells into AoE) and the 3x recast is not a difference big enough imho.
Having a couple of spells accessionable only by SCH would bring some of that feeling back into SCH.

If their argument against accession+haste is "would be too powerful" then I can agree with such argument if we're talking about all jobs going /SCH, but giving this only to SCH wouldn't be much different to the 3+ mins Hastega that Summoners already get.

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My issue isn't against Haste being Accessionable, I've even asked for it before. My issue is with the "SCH should gain it uniquely" they should never have been able to do it with Phalanx when they made Phalanx II a meritable spell for RDM and weaker than Phalanx let alone doing it again with Haste.

If you want unique spells for Accession, make suggestions for new spells that SCH can get higher than 50 as opposed to asking for a spell that isn't even a spell native to them being Accessionable uniquely. As I said, I don't deny SCH could do it at 75 with Stoneskin, Aquaveil, Phalanx, Gravity and so on.. Only that they shouldn't have been able to.

Triple recast wasn't exactly the gimp though, 2 stratagems is. It effectively works. SCH not being unique enough past level 50 is it's biggest issue. The Regen buff is nice, but ultimately wont change anything.

Personally, two fixes for me that could help would be:

1. Adloquium being 3/tic minimum, upgradeable to 5/tic.
2. The Animus line having additional effects:
   1. Enmity down - Occassionally suppresses all enmity for the next attack.
   2. Enmity up - Occassionally grants a massive enmity boost.

While this doesn't instantly fix SCH, at least it has better uses for 3 of their new spells.

Personally I'd even add a new Stratagem, something like:

Mana Transfer
Consumes "Sublimation" charge to increase the potency/duration of the next spell.

Dark Arts: 50 MAB boost for the next elemental spell cast.
Light Arts: 50% Duration increase for the next spell cast, multiplicative with Perpetuance.

Mana Switch
Transfers "Sublimation" charge onto select party member.

or

Mana Wave
Converts "Stratagem" charge into a non-elemental blast that does damage equal to double the MP charged. (Capable of being upgraded to Triple, even possibly Quadruple)

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

Having a couple of spells accessionable only by SCH would bring some of that feeling back into SCH.

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Ha. There should be no spell that Scholar can Accession that others can't unless only Scholar gets it. The strat timers are what really limits /SCH.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Triple recast wasn't exactly the gimp though, 2 stratagems is. It effectively works. SCH not being unique enough past level 50 is it's biggest issue.

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Scholar still has Light/Dark weather, and a bunch of gear, and as you said, more stratagems. I would say their stratagem usage rate is what makes them unique, even from /SCH... and I would say this is far more unique then /NIN are from NIN, but we don't hear them complain. Sub jobs are a major part of this game - if anything I would like to see a new set of latent effect gear that boosts sub jobs now that is appropriate for level 99.

Buffs to their enmity spells would be in order, your suggestions aren't the first, but they are decent. SE has said they have no intention of buffing the Regain spell outside of gear.

Personally, for Scholar, something I think would be cool is an update to Immanence that makes it so the weather spell you have up (if different from the spell you are casting) counts as a second element for the purposes of a skillchain (or at very least opening one). I would also like to see some gear that reduces Light Arts / Dark Arts recasts more then just the merits, gear that reduces the penalty of casting magic with the wrong Arts active (perhaps by about half), and other things like this. And while it isn't for Scholar only, I'd like to see the elemental obi merged into one piece of gear, or better yet, into a questable key item - among other gear consolidation methods.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Ha. There should be no spell that Scholar can Accession that others can't unless only Scholar gets it. The strat timers are what really limits /SCH.



Scholar still has Light/Dark weather, and a bunch of gear, and as you said, more stratagems. I would say their stratagem usage rate is what makes them unique, even from /SCH... and I would say this is far more unique then /NIN are from NIN, but we don't hear them complain. Sub jobs are a major part of this game - if anything I would like to see a new set of latent effect gear that boosts sub jobs now that is appropriate for level 99.

Buffs to their enmity spells would be in order, your suggestions aren't the first, but they are decent. SE has said they have no intention of buffing the Regain spell outside of gear.

Personally, for Scholar, something I think would be cool is an update to Immanence that makes it so the weather spell you have up (if different from the spell you are casting) counts as a second element for the purposes of a skillchain (or at very least opening one). I would also like to see some gear that reduces Light Arts / Dark Arts recasts more then just the merits, gear that reduces the penalty of casting magic with the wrong Arts active (perhaps by about half), and other things like this. And while it isn't for Scholar only, I'd like to see the elemental obi merged into one piece of gear, or better yet, into a questable key item - among other gear consolidation methods.

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Yeah, a belt with:

Gain full benefit of day/weather bonus, would be so cool. Could even do it with the WS gorgets.

I'm not the first nor the last to suggest it (well, maybe making it a key item). Shoot, something like merging it with the Twilight Cape so only that slot was needed would work too, but I'd prefer the key item route.

Well, that, or a Synergy recipe that combines all of them would work... it could be called "Twilight Obi" or something like that.

Same for the gorgets.