A Puppetmaster Suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Who can blame them? it's tedious to keep them up forever in a long EXP party, for instance, especially when their effect usually isn't something dramatic (Not saying its bad, just saying it doesn't make the user go "OMG WOW!" because its not like some weapon skill or other drastic move). If it was less tedious to maintain them, you could potentially decrease the number of "bad" PUPs.

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Actually, The pups who don't use maneuvers are generally the better PUPs. Its the PUPs who don't realize they're losing a large chunk of their damage keeping those maneuvers up that are the bad ones.

Obviously if you're not meleeing it doesn't matter, But if you are meleeing that JA delay really adds up over time, and has a large effect on your TP phase damage.

It is drastic enough that it needs to be changed. As i posted the link last page, using a JA imposes a delay of 120 (2 seconds) before your next attack can go, so you're losing 6 seconds of melee every minute keeping Maneuvers up 3/3, thats 10% of each minutes damage lost from keeping those abilities up.

Its a pretty blaring problem and if anything its just another target for the "lolpup" Crowd, I like the idea of Maneuvers, they just need an overhauling to make it less impacting on the Masters DPS, because the master is generally the stronger one and the DPS lost from using a maneuver is almost never worth the lost in damage from using it. especially trying to keep 3/3 Maneuvers up.

@Karbuncle and his followers.... Oh please. The delay is based on the idea that Vanadiel is subject to physics. Meaning that thngs don't get to ignore Time and be instan casted. Even Redmages with Chainspell still needs a sec or two to fire of spells.

The "delay" argument much like the increased melee/haste wishes are deadhorse and abusing the system. This is a waste of breathe and energy to keep bringing up.

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The pups who don't use maneuvers are generally the better PUPs. Its the PUPs who don't realize they're losing a large chunk of their damage keeping those maneuvers up that are the bad ones.

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That's basically the silliest thing I've ever heard. Nothing more to say than that.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

That's basically the silliest thing I've ever heard. Nothing more to say than that.

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My Comment was in regards to if you're meleeing with your PUP. Obviously if you're using BLM or RNG Frame it varies because it won't impact your DD if you're not engaged.

I do not believe its silly at all, if you're a PUP and you're receiving Haste or Marches, Using a Maneuver is going to impact your DD by a significant amount over time if you chose to keep all 3 maneuvers up. You lose 10% of your DPS keeping 3 Maneuvers up full time. 10% is a big number in the grand scheme of a battle.

Using 1 maneuver isn't going to kill you, keeping 3 up every minute will.in theory its 6sec per 1min of your DPS gone. While it may not seem like a lot, compared to the nill-visible benefits your PUP receives, it adds up.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

@Karbuncle and his followers.... Oh please. The delay is based on the idea that Vanadiel is subject to physics. Meaning that thngs don't get to ignore Time and be instan casted. Even Redmages with Chainspell still needs a sec or two to fire of spells.

The "delay" argument much like the increased melee/haste wishes are deadhorse and abusing the system. This is a waste of breathe and energy to keep bringing up.

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lol. I cant tell if you agree or disagree. For the record assuming you didn't read the OP, I'm not saying to reduce the JA Delay, I'm saying to increase Maneuver duration so its impact is less apparent.

Obviously some players dont find a loss of 10% of their Damage to be a big problem, Theres absolutely nothing wrong with it. Some people play purely for fun and this isn't a problem to them.

However, i feel its big enough that it should at least be looked into, And i ask if you don't feel its a problem, say your piece and leave, rather than instigating. Other PUPs care about their damage output and their contributions, and Maneuvers being adjusted would go a long way to helping a PUP DD more readily.

So far I think my favorite suggestion was a JA to allow 3 Maneuvers to be "Locked" in for a duration of time, unable to change.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

My Comment was in regards to if you're meleeing with your PUP

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While it may not seem like a lot, compared to the nill-visible benefits your PUP receives, it adds up.

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Here is your mistake sir. Yes you gimp your overall dmg. No the benefits for the automaton is not close to nothing, unless you dont have the correct attachments equiped.

Actually, the DPS you lost is largely compensated by the gain for your maton. I know that like 99% of ppl who think something, you wont believe a stranger so i suggest you to parse yourself (you and your maton), you will see that you are wrong on this point.

hmm.. if we could save a set of 3 maneuvers (in different configurations) and use a JA to put up all 3 in the same time it takes to put up 1, that would work to fix our dps issue .. (sorry if it's been suggested, that's what comes to mind)

kind of like macros for our macros. you could save 5 sets of 3 maneuvers? ex: (windx3, windx2lightx1, icex3, fire1light1thund1, light 1dark1,water1)

i agree if you put all this together, we would see a massive boost in overall dps. it would be a start to getting us on par with other dds.

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Originally Posted by Gael

Here is your mistake sir. Yes you gimp your overall dmg. No the benefits for the automaton is not close to nothing, unless you dont have the correct attachments equiped.

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Which Frame? The only exception i can think would be BLM Frame, where Reducing Spell Recast time and Gaining MAB would be a good boost. But I feel you're underestimating the Damage you deal as PUP if you're receiving buffs. If you're solo of course its not the biggest deal, If you're getting Haste/Marches like you would in a good party situation its where the problem begins to arise.

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Actually, the DPS you lost is largely compensated by the gain for your maton. I know that like 99% of ppl who think something, you wont believe a stranger so i suggest you to parse yourself (you and your maton), you will see that you are wrong on this point.

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i will go parse this, if anything to strengthen my belief i am correct. If it turns out you're correct, I see it as no big deal, because regardless of the benefit, Keeping Maneuvers up does still require the sacrifice of 10% of the PUPs-Masters DPS, Which is i feel a problem for the job.

Either way knowledge is knowledge, and if i am incorrect i will in fact admit it. Would you like me to test in or out of Abyssea? or both?

i tested with rng and war frame the day we got the new WSs for this two frames and it was in abyssea (imo it's even better ouside abyssea)

For the buff, i had only haste, it's hard to get a BRD or a COR in an abyssea pt :'(

I've been playing the job since it's inception to the game and this idea (increasing the maneuver duration) is really not necessary---the OP states it ends up hurting the master's DPS... we're not monks... I know you're new to lvl90 puppetmaster but if you have monk at lvl90 as well, i can somewhat understand your position. The maneuvers, as they are, work fine. All jobs require a form of balance--perhaps this is puppetmaster's balance. The Automaton is the job (or at least 1/2 of it) and the master is the other half...the maneuvers are how we control our automaton--if we focus on using the automaton's maneuvers less often, in order to increase the DPS of the master--we, in effect, are acting more like Monks...but gimped monks, since we're lacking much of what Monk has that makes it an awesome DPS DD job... so I think your suggestion would, ultimately, hurt this job, not help it... by taking the focus off of where it should be... our automatons...not ourselves.

If you want to focus on DPS, lvl or play Monk.... my opin.

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Originally Posted by xiozen

I've been playing the job since it's inception to the game and this idea (increasing the maneuver duration) is really not necessary

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I respect this opinion. How would you feel about a JA that allows you to lock in 3 Maneuvers for a Duration?

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---the OP states it ends up hurting the master's DPS... we're not monks... I know you're new to lvl90 puppetmaster but if you have monk at lvl90 as well, i can somewhat understand your position.

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I feel this is irrelivant, SAMs are not WARs, but their objective is DD. PUP's objective is DD, their Empyrean Armor, the increase in h2h Skill, Martial Art Job Traits, and so on all lend to their DD ability. The PupperMASTER is much and far stronger than the Puppet, Rather this is an oversight by SE or what have you, It is still a fact.

My only goal is to make PUP less "lOLPUP" in the eyes of the community, relieving the stress of sacrificing our damage so often i think would help a bit...

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The maneuvers, as they are, work fine. All jobs require a form of balance--perhaps this is puppetmaster's balance

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I agree with you that All jobs require balance, I feel like PUPs "Balance" was a bit to lopsided, for lack of better words. I can't think of another DD job that, in order for a part of it to be effective, they are required to use 3JA per minute, sacrificing 10% of their DPS, with little to show depending on when/where/frame.

The benefit as I am testing might outweigh the loss... Even so i would still feel rather strongly that something should be done about Maneuvers to make it easier for the PUP to keep them up full time without the loss to their damage.

Like I said above, My favorite idea is allowing 3 Maneuvers to be locked in for a period of time, unable to change. this create some balance (not being able to change) while helping the master maintain a damage.

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The Automaton is the job (or at least 1/2 of it) and the master is the other half...the maneuvers are how we control our automaton--if we focus on using the automaton's maneuvers less often, in order to increase the DPS of the master--we, in effect, are acting more like Monks...

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The problem is, In a lot of situations (not all), Acting like gimp monks and not using maneuver is actually better for your damage, the thing you're designed to do. Thats why i was upset about it. i DO want to be a Puppetmaster, But i don't want the trend of "LOLPUP" to continue, sacrificing 10% of our damage every minute is "lol", especially when in some cases the Automaton doesn't even make up for that loss (I.E high Haste Situations, Or if you've ever owned a Vereth and know what Victory Smite is and how doing that 10% More often > anything your maneuvers do)

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but gimped monks, since we're lacking much of what Monk has that makes it an awesome DPS DD job... so I think your suggestion would, ultimately, hurt this job, not help it...

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I'm quite sorry to ask, How is increasing a Puppetmasters Damage output, One main thing they're designed to do, hurting the job? I feel this is biased, I think i might be hurting your Role-playing style of the job, I can admit, But it would not hurt the job in any way by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm not asking to remove Maneuvers or erase the Puppet, I'm asking for something that lessens the negative impact of keeping maneuvers up. nothing more.

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by taking the focus off of where it should be... our automatons...not ourselves

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I do not feel this is a valid reason. The automaton will still be at your side, fighting with you, Skillchaining with you, Casting Spells, Shooting Bolts, and what have you, the only difference is now you can actually keep up your damage with it, contributing more to the party.

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If you want to focus on DPS, lvl or play Monk.... my opin.

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I do have MNK90, But i don't believe i will fault in my belief that PUP is a DD job, and what good is a DD that cannot DD? This OP update to Maneuvers would serve nothing more than to help the job. There would be no negative to longer durations.

But, SE already stated lengthening maneuvers would be nigh impossible, so perhaps that JA suggested might get considered...