On Red Mage melee...

For BRD, Cure IV, Haste, and status cures are very important reasons to sub WHM over RDM. I played BRD in event settings for years (important admission: I retired BRD when the level cap first rose to 80), and singing songs was only half the job. I, and any good BRD from that era, made extensive use of the status cures and cures from /WHM. I honestly don't know if /SCH is now the better choice these days, to be honest.

And yes, a WHM in an event setting (outside of Abyssea) should have enough support to /SCH comfortably. MP conservation should not be an issue for properly supported, geared, and talented WHMs, and /RDM doesn't come close to offering the same perks as /SCH. Even in the Abyssea age, I generally consider the /SCH or /BLM WHMs to be the ones who know what they're doing, and I'm immediately suspect of any WHM/RDM.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

I generally consider the /SCH or /BLM WHMs to be the ones who know what they're doing, and I'm immediately suspect of any WHM/RDM.

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You are going to have to explain that one to me.

Also apparently BG needs some clarification since when I'm talking about Ballad nearly matching refresh 1 I'm talking about Brd Brd as opposed to Brd Rdm. The first bard is already assumed to be using Ballad III and II giving his +9 MP/tick.

I mean really, in terms of refreshing jobs Brd >>> Smn* > Rdm > Cor
(Smn is situational obviously)

Stun.

0123456789

When did stun become useless? Also ES sleepga/Sleep is pretty nice. Oh did I forget to mention conserve MP...

...good point with the stun

forgot that was /blmable now

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For BRD, Cure IV, Haste, and status cures are very important reasons to sub WHM over RDM. I played BRD in event settings for years (important admission: I retired BRD when the level cap first rose to 80), and singing songs was only half the job. I, and any good BRD from that era, made extensive use of the status cures and cures from /WHM. I honestly don't know if /SCH is now the better choice these days, to be honest.

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Question:

Once 99 hits and haste become available via /rdm, adding in the additional MP endurance of Convert as well as fast cast traits which will play into Bard's song timers. Would you still take /whm merely for the status cures? I'm sure it's situational but especially if you've another mage, ANY mage handy you're already going to have a decent status cure removal situation there and the Bards support focus should probably be more primarily on buffs with the backup cure handy.

Honestly I view Red Mage as a subjob primarily for Scholars and Summoners. Both jobs that benefit more from the spell variety and direct MP restoration.

/RDM for WHM and BLM really depends on how independent of outside support they need to be.

If I see a BLM or WHM with Sub Red Mage. I don't really question them, as much as acknowledge that they're not used to getting paired with BRD/COR/RDM.

As long as you need status cures they'll be subbing /whm or /sch for said status cures.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

As long as you need status cures they'll be subbing /whm or /sch for said status cures.

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Or just bring a scholar if you need them that badly.

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As long as you need status cures they'll be subbing /whm or /sch for said status cures.

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I just find it kind of redundant when WHM, SCH, and virtually every job that subs WHM or SCH for whatever reason (I default to /SCH on back line duties on RDM unless I need sleepga/stun) and anyone else /sch can burn a charge to AoE a recovery. (whm doesn't even need to do that in some cases.)

If it's covered, wouldn't you want abilities that enhance your root duties more?

Depends what you're fighting then. Some mobs are annoying enough to bring at least 2 people who can remove status effects. If it's only like 1 TP move to watch out for then yea other people can start using other subs.

I prefer BRD to be subbing WHM so the WHM is free to handle other duties aside from status debuffs. Erase has a longer timer as well and doesn't cross parties, so that is necessary in a lot of situations. The only exception would be BLM/BRD for ES, which right now isn't a necessity but I'm sure will be again in the future.

Edit: Also I'm not sure what BRDs you play with but 9mp/tick is pretty lol.

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Originally Posted by Rearden

I prefer BRD to be subbing WHM so the WHM is free to handle other duties aside from status debuffs. Erase has a longer timer as well and doesn't cross parties, so that is necessary in a lot of situations. The only exception would be BLM/BRD for ES, which right now isn't a necessity but I'm sure will be again in the future.

Edit: Also I'm not sure what BRDs you play with but 9mp/tick is pretty lol.

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The only status effect /sch doesn't get is stona and /sch would give you the ability to AoE those status effects.

And why is +9 pretty lol. You party with G horn bards or something? I mean is Crooner's cithara and Aoidos' Rhingrave +2 seems like a reasonable standard.

As of 90 cap, Viruna too.

not sure if i should post it in a new thread but for now ill leave this here

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Originally Posted by Gokku

K heres everything
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...93b0f79322.png
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...2f2889e4a0.png
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...269afb9d0e.png
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...4c40f56392.png
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...55c05fee97.png
Personal notes , not sure why CDC shows up under ability damage also i see it as , the blu shows what a poorly geared players potential is vs a well geared one for the rdm vs the blu and then the war shows the diffrence vs my monk * both heavy dd classes*. with the most obvious gap being my monk to the redmage.
the parse was paused ASAP upon any DD's death * i died 3 times blu 2 times* and resumed as soon as i drew my wep after all dd's were unweakened.

any other questions.

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well i'm proud of me <.<

half of an optimized/nearly optimized mnk? i'll take it...



for now >.>

40% (42) really, but honestly I'm still impressed. You have a nice RDM, probably the best one I've actually seen from the melee camp. Honestly I just wonder how different the parse would've been with Marchx2 instead of March+Mad, since that seems to have favored the Rdm and the weaker melees a wee bit (nothing to complain over, just an observation).

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

well i'm proud of me <.<

half of an optimized/nearly optimized mnk? i'll take it...



for now >.>

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42% is not half.

To be fair, there's some improvements that could be made to close the gap, by how much, idk. I'd just write it off personally, Doom doesn't even have Zelus/Goliard/ACP body tied up elsewhere I'm guessing.

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

well i'm proud of me <.<

half of an optimized/nearly optimized mnk? i'll take it...



for now >.>

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You were a good sport.

Well at least I know where to start after finishing the damn sword, and making ACP body over.

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

well i'm proud of me <.<

half of an optimized/nearly optimized mnk? i'll take it...



for now >.>

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For what it's worth Doom, I'm impressed. Cheers to you stepping up to the plate and doing well for yourself - and on short notice, for that matter.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Out of context, neither am I. Hold on *backreads*



Ah.

Loosing 6mp/tic (Earring, Body (2), Hat, boot/gloves (1)... and I'm guessing the augmented undies, god please tell me there's an alternative.) Is kind of irrelevant in the contexts you WOULD be meleeing, as your casting load is simply not that high.

And by casting load I mean main healing (in situations in which incoming damage is high or debuffs on the party members are plentiful), being the primary magic proc (Dynamis) or nuking your face off.

Not that our idle gear hasn't gotten dead sexy in the time I've been away. It has. Getting those pieces are kind of a priority for me right now. But there hasn't been much in the way of increased casting difficulty/load for us yet in any situation in which we'd front line, and we've already gotten an additional 3 mp/tic, buff duration enhancements, and a crap ton of other bonuses through gear that have actually offset our overall costs. Which will be even more MP efficient if/when we get Cure V.

There's a reason why it's called 'idle' gear. However. We're supposed to be wearing it when we're not doing anything. (and yes, duh, I realize we can piecemeal it to have some form of constant refresh while casting.) And honestly, especially for the back line. I want to be doing more.

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Hyrist said it better than I could. Gear swap into Refresh gear while idling. Done.

While we're at it, I'll just say right now my melee gear set is not that great, it's still heavily a work in progress. Actually, it's pretty gimp. Given how sub-optimal melee RDM even is in this game at the moment, getting help to get the better stuff isn't easy. It's pretty much been nothing more than something to do on the side for fun.

My opinion, bottom line, if you want to stand in the back and just toss cures and buffs, just be a WHM. I'm a fan of hyrbids and multitasking, so juggling melee and spellcasting appeals to me. Standing in the back curing is the most boring thing to me.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

So are you ever going to bring up valid arguments other than attacking my about things that arent even related to final fantasy xi. If that's the case, show us your gear sets for meleeing, show us the people you play with, show us how you play even, if you can't do that then you should probably stop arguing because I can ask the same thing of you, but if I did that you would make up some silly excuse as to why you couldn't.

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Again, you spent more of your argument going off of baseless assumptions; repeatedly bringing up "stop playing with gimp players", as if you were somehow watching me play at all times(creepy), while I gave multiple examples of what I was talking about with in-game mechanics. Please, I am genuinely asking you, where did I bring up a silly excuse for anything? Because I refuse to parse lolmeleeRDM against a specialist DD?

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Originally Posted by Aurara

6 man voidwatch vid on youtube: pld cor rdm whm smnx2. So sorry wut.

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Was this supposed to be a link? This isn't even a sentence. Your posts hurt my brain.

aye. my ls is supposed to be doing zelus tiaras.. tonight... hows that for a sad coincidence? even worse.. we were supposed to do it last week! but it never got off the ground. i coulda HAD one for this ><

but what are you gonna do? at least at 90 cap, any warning i had beforehand woulda just been used the same way.. i was chasing tiara ANYWAY yah know? this is my rdm "as is" even down to keeping melee food in the mog sack at all times.


also just to give some context and answer some questions/comments i've read here and on bg:

i only rarely hasted gokku. left that up to the whm usually. only casted it on others if asked, wich was infrequent.

i was keeping fresh2 on myself, the whm, AND the blu. the blu i considered non-critical. so he only ever got it during pulls/etc. minimal impact on my dmg from him.

i don't have dia3, at all. but for the sake of argument i dunno how much it would matter? would it have helped either of us more than the other?

i didn't "pick" brisk mask.. as stated above.. i'd wear a zelus in a heartbeat..... but i don't have it :\

as for my casting load, i started out trying to keep it as light as possible. (was told to just play it like a DD) but it quickly became apparent that the whm was... overwhelmed.... so for most of the parse i was doing sleep/silence/light cureing. still less than what would normally be asked of an rdm in a pickup group, however.

my almace is only 85, for whatever that's worth. the screenshot doesn't show so just figured i'd mention it

and i was eating food, hedgehog pie. dunno about the randoms. i believe gokku was eating marbled steak. nearly identical.


i think that's all i have to add.. of course gokku has all the real numbers anyway.. i play on xbox so i couldn't even parse myself if i wanted to.. so this was interesting for me, and i thank him for his time.


edit: realized i was calling gokku "guk".. like as in gukumatz i guess... dunno why. trauma maybe.... burned into my psyche........

Couldn't you grab a Walahra Turban to tide you over until your shell goes after Zelus Tiara? Might be worth it if you LS keeps flaking out on you.

(necro quote)

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I'm not going to waste my breath arguing 4 year old data.

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oh you meant a rdm was able to do 80% of a sam BEFORE 2handed weapon update and before hasso? in this case i can aggre

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Multiple parses have backed this ~80% claim and while the example parse posted was...slightly old...I have seen other ones since then that have continued to back the 80% claim.

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can find multiple parse of a sam doing 80%(or lower) of another sam when the should do the same

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Why would you use a MAB sword when you can use a magic defense down sword.

You can get some ridiculous numbers with that thing.

Seriously, Blms practically have a mini-orgasm when that effect is up.

Of course to actually make it worthwhile you have to pretty much single wield it and drop your enspell.

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Going back to this for a moment, I do have a question about how added effect weapons take effect. This is not a question about optimal play, I'm curious how a game mechanic works:

Hypothetically, if you dual-wielded two different weapons with an added effect property, let's say main hand has Magic Defense Down, and off-hand has Magic Evasion Down, would the effects both be active if they proc'ed? Or would one effect overwrite the other? I understand en-spells don't work with them, but would they activate independently?

For that matter, could you wield two weapons with the same added effect, and stack the effect? I'm asking because I genuinely do not know.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Again, you spent more of your argument going off of baseless assumptions; repeatedly bringing up "stop playing with gimp players", as if you were somehow watching me play at all times(creepy), while I gave multiple examples of what I was talking about with in-game mechanics. Please, I am genuinely asking you, where did I bring up a silly excuse for anything? Because I refuse to parse lolmeleeRDM against a specialist DD?

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If you spent more time arguing about the actual topic instead of pointing out my grammar mistakes and making personal attacks instead of attacking/arguing with what I'm actually saying you would realize you look really foolish.

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Was this supposed to be a link? This isn't even a sentence. Your posts hurt my brain.

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See, here you go again, attacking my grammar without an actual counter-argument. If you think my posts make your brain hurt, how about YOUR posts making everyone else's brain hurt. Here is the video since you obviously can't search youtube properly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ReopFQsirQ

Doombringer, mind posting your WS set for us? (Enhancing set too if you don't mind.)

Also I'm noticing 15 Light Skillchains, but of relatively low damage, was that you closing on Goku or some other cause? (Victory Smite is listed to being able to close on itself with light, was wondering if this is the same with CDC's light element, meaning you could have opened for Goku. I tend to focus on opening skillchains for burst damage increase rather than push individual DPS numbers, our WS numbers are never that great.)

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i don't have dia3, at all. but for the sake of argument i dunno how much it would matter? would it have helped either of us more than the other?

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Probably would have benefited you more than than Goku, as defense reductions often benefit the lower attack jobs. I would have let the Bard double March and focused on a brief Dia 3 as each mob as pulled/agroed. You might have suffered from the casting time and not having capped gear haste especially, but the party would have preformed better.

In the respect of this context, the Blue Mage would have benefited the most from Dia III, as the defense calculations would have factored into his spell damage as well.

Gear wise I'd recommend getting Goliard when you can. ACP Body likely won't outweigh haste benefits in most cases due to the way scaling haste works. Having that haste capped is critical.

I'm assuming your offhand is Chimeric Fluret. Do you have plans on going for a DA Khanda soon? Seems to be the best offhand for Sword when dual wielding, especially to abuse the crap out of Almace's Aftermath. (A BLU concept, but should still be sound for RDM) Otherwise you probably would have been better of /WAR in this case (Fencer, DA, Warcry, Zerk). The Fluret, while a nice sword, was likely holding your Almace back this time around.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ReopFQsirQ

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Is there a timeframe when that video actually gets interesting? RDM does almost nothing and I don't see how people are ok with that sort of role for the RDM.

... I mean... he Saboteur'ed Poison II...

I really do hope SE fills that tall order into making us right buff/debuff specialists for endgame.

Not sure if you've fought Hahava, but a RDM would get torn to shreds within seconds meleeing, because Hahava can hit around him, for 500-1k per hit, which is why you use earthen armor/phalanx/Sentinel scherzo(which they did not have). And really, i know he wasn't doing much, and that keeping up poison2/bio3 isn't hard, but arguing that he should be meleeing is almost like arguing a brd should be meleeing.

P.S. he would have gotten rocked if he melee'd

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Originally Posted by Aurara

If you spent more time arguing about the actual topic instead of pointing out my grammar mistakes and making personal attacks instead of attacking/arguing with what I'm actually saying you would realize you look really foolish.




See, here you go again, attacking my grammar without an actual counter-argument. If you think my posts make your brain hurt, how about YOUR posts making everyone else's brain hurt. Here is the video since you obviously can't search youtube properly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ReopFQsirQ

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I can search YouTube just fine. If you're going to mention a video as some kind of proof of something, you post a link. You're the one making the argument, so it's your responsibility to make your "video proof" as accessible as possible. It'd be like a lawyer saying he has evidence to prove his case, but it's in some library where the jury has to look it up themselves. Not doing much for your case.

I've been making plenty of statements on topic, you choose to ignore them.

Anyway, back on topic.

After seeing the parse links Gokku posted(thank you, by the way), it's looking like finishing an Almace is the only readily available way I'm going to make RDM melee really viable in the current state of the game. I started the sword a while back, but got distracted by other things(working on a Ukkonvasara atm), so it's going to have to wait.

RDM melee is more of a side hobby anyway, so I'm not really in a hurry, which is one reason I never really upgraded from MAB swords I made last year; not a lot of point if no one is going to let you melee in a party anyway.

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Not sure if you've fought Hahava, but a RDM would get torn to shreds within seconds meleeing,

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Not talking about Melee.

My standards are as thus, and please don't confuse them: Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses.

I'm woeing over the fact that we've got little else to do than Haste/Refresh botting due to resists rates on enfeebles, and not having enough buffs to actually be factored as a strong presence in a fight.

As I said, the Red Mage did almost nothing. A bard would have been MUCH better in that spot.

ws set: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/219336

i don't have a set built at ffxiah for enhancing, but i have +51 skill from gear, then 16 from merits. the skill itself is actually still slightly under cap.

as for the light skillchains, i think most of those were the blu self sc'ing. me and gokku certainly didn't coordinate on any of them so any we had together were completely by accident, so i wouldn't know who opened or closed.

also i've been lead to believe, that not only is the DA khanda over-rated due to it's massive delay, but that chimeric fleuret is actually one of the best offhanders to pair with an almace. you still get 4% da, and you save something like 40 delay:

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/17...gear/5#1356580

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Going back to this for a moment, I do have a question about how added effect weapons take effect. This is not a question about optimal play, I'm curious how a game mechanic works:

Hypothetically, if you dual-wielded two different weapons with an added effect property, let's say main hand has Magic Defense Down, and off-hand has Magic Evasion Down, would the effects both be active if they proc'ed? Or would one effect overwrite the other? I understand en-spells don't work with them, but would they activate independently?

For that matter, could you wield two weapons with the same added effect, and stack the effect? I'm asking because I genuinely do not know.

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Each weapon would have a chance to activate their added effect and both status effects can be active at the same time (duration 30 secs).

Dual wielding the same effect would not let them stack on top of each other. A status effect from a sword cannot be reactivated until it has worn off.

Be careful about dual wielding though. Since dual wield recalculates they delay of the weapon it also recalculates its activation rate since the activation rate of the weapon is dependent on the delay. If you are trying to use these swords in a support role single wielding with /war is usually the way to go. (You can argue that single wielding with /dnc is better for the Defense Down sword though never use that with a Drg around).

I really wouldn't worry about most of the status effect swords though. The only two that are kinda...broken are defense down and magic defense down since those 2 stats affect the denominator in the formula they are involved in.

Magic Evasion down is especially redundant on Rdm considering Death Blossom gives the exact same status effect only slightly weaker (and will last longer). Both status effects shouldn't be able to stack since they are the same thing.

The one sword someday I might grab that I don't currently have and be tempted to play around with is the magic accuracy down sword. Since we just got addle and that has a magic defense down status effect that is part of addle the magic accuracy down sword should be able to stack with it. It might be interesting to see how nuking the crap out of a monsters magic accuracy plays with someone using barspells and if needed a resist set.

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

ws set: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/219336

i don't have a set built at ffxiah for enhancing, but i have +51 skill from gear, then 16 from merits. the skill itself is actually still slightly under cap.

as for the light skillchains, i think most of those were the blu self sc'ing. me and gokku certainly didn't coordinate on any of them so any we had together were completely by accident, so i wouldn't know who opened or closed.

also i've been lead to believe, that not only is the DA khanda over-rated due to it's massive delay, but that chimeric fleuret is actually one of the best offhanders to pair with an almace. you still get 4% da, and you save something like 40 delay:

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/17...gear/5#1356580

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What I would give to have that guy's weapon availability. Sometimes it sucks having such limited playtime.

Anyways behaviorally I focus less on my personal damage and more on the party damage. Which is why my eyes went right to skillchain numbers. I understand that this is a test to measure what RDM's DPS is like, but if anything it emphasizes my long standing stance that as a Red Mage, our TP is best spent being used to enhance other player's damage spikes. It's just another support function we offer.

As far as Chimeric Fluret testing. I'll have to go with his numbers, I can't challenge it without the gear to do it myself. I'll prioritize getting the Fluret though.

This leaves the question, however. Of whether or not your damage would have been superior simply single weilding. With Fencer only being available to Red Mage via /War even though the melee camp has been clamoring for it natively, paired off with Sanguine Blade being EX, it makes me wonder whether or not SE's trying to push Melee practitioners in that direction.

If you had Zelus ACP DW/Acc body would actually be better than zelus, especially since you'd benefit from the accuracy if for no other reason than canceling calm trouser's -acc.

Same ffxiah link I have my thoughts on offhand swords at the end.

SE can try to push anyone in that direction all they want no one is going to go for it until Fencer's bonuses equal or outweigh dualwield, which they don't.

IF single wield could end up better, it wouldn't be because of fencer. there MIGHT be something to it in that the double dmg can only proc on the mainhand, and single wielding... it's ALL mainhand..

but 30% delay reduction, and the extra hit on cdc, is a pretty big deal.

i suppose i'd be willing to try it, but again, i can't parse myself. and i'm not really looking to get right back to it anytime soon anyway.

that took all night <.<

i'd be curious to hit it again once i've rounded out my gear a bit, but this single wield fencer thing just doesn't excite me.

Congrats Doom, sorry for my late reply just had a moment to read over the parse data. 8/8 Enhancing, a man after my own heart.

IDK about Chim off hand anymore, back when it was +7 enspell on both hands it was our best off hand weapon, but now I'd have to recheck a bunch of stuff. Also depends on camp, if the target was piercing weak then yeah Chim wins, otherwise IDK.

For neck have you looked into the Rancor neck piece? Its +5 Crit +6 acc +10% damage taken, as RDM's we can afford to take more damage due to our inherit survivability. Also CDC numbers looked low, what was the monsters level you were fighting? RDM does great on VT stuff but really starts to suffer on IT due to LCF kicking our attack problem in the teeth. And yes double march always, hit really fast lol. You set mirrors mine in every aspect except I haven't yet finished Sobek and I use the Rancor neck piece. For the time being I'm using Twilight dagger main hand for Evis spam.

For everyone else, the "80%" reference was back at 75. Now with the buffs that all the other jobs got, and with their new gear selection, and the fact that RDM's received nearly nothing melee wise, combined puts a significant gap between the two. The funny part is that other then CDC, the absolute "best" RDM "melee" gear isn't hard to get, its mostly AH stuff. There literally is ~NO~ super gear to get, we don't have our "ebody / ridill" equivalents. We don't want to do the same damage as the above MNK, but we'd like our ceiling to be significantly higher.

Of course I now have to ask a question, did you parse the cure data? How much of total party HP did you cure directly? And then how much additional healing did you provide via MP recovery? And further how much more damage did you provide via the BLU's refresh? Was you cure bombing the melee, and I'm assuming the MNK was /WAR and the WAR full time hasso, and did that cure bombing allow them to take a more offensive approach?

That is what a RDM brings to the table, it not only contributes it's own damage but allows others to deal more damage then they normally would of been able to. After all in this game, melee's don't punch brick walls with infinite HP for hours on end. In FFXI those walls punch back.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Of course I now have to ask a question, did you parse the cure data? How much of total party HP did you cure directly? And then how much additional healing did you provide via MP recovery? And further how much more damage did you provide via the BLU's refresh? Was you cure bombing the melee, and I'm assuming the MNK was /WAR and the WAR full time hasso, and did that cure bombing allow them to take a more offensive approach?

That is what a RDM brings to the table, it not only contributes it's own damage but allows others to deal more damage then they normally would of been able to. After all in this game, melee's don't punch brick walls with infinite HP for hours on end. In FFXI those walls punch back.

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cure data is as follows if you want a SS ill post it but
Total Damage taken 101441
Gokku 70819
Doombringer 4966
*others omited

Total healing done
Ayca 68303
Brotherblood 12157
Doombringer 2417
Gokku 3629 *chakra*

so there you have it i healed myself for more then all the heals the rdm had to cast, infact the blu spent more time healing then the rdm *6 times as much*.
as for time spent debuffing
Doombringer
Debuff #Successful Total Duration Avg Duration
Silence 17 0:09:25 0:33
Sleep 1 0:00:07 0:07
Sleep II 8 0:07:02 0:53

Gokku
Debuff #Successful Total Duration Avg Duration
Provoke 55 0:45:05 0:49