[dev1047] Thoughts/Feedback on "Legion"

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

Er ok, that wasn't where I was going with that, but sure, I agree. But while it may be true, there is no reason to speed up that process (or open it up to exploitative behavior) by allowing all Abyssea gear to be purchased by cruor, or all Limbus gear to be purchased by beastcoins. Each event would soon be worthless because nobody would ever fight the actual bosses. When Joe Schmoe and his 17-mule Fell Cleave ally can purchase complete sets of +2 from the NPC, that's when you know the event is DOA.

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Except in the cases your comparing it to (abyssea / limbus) They would have to add a charge just to enter the event (360k per limbus / abyssea run?!? 0.o), and take away all time extensions so that you had 30 minutes per event. Then they would have to make it so that cruor / beast coins only dropped from NMs instead of dropping off of ep mobs. Just imagine the price of ABCs lol.

But then again, if they had done that with abyssea, you wouldn't care about legion, because you would still be trying to gather all your +2 gear right now.

Joe schmoe isn't stupid enough to try and fell cleave Rani with 17 naked WHM mules, and even if he was, who cares?

In summary, being able to buy the gear with points or w/e in legion makes perfect sense.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Except in the cases your comparing it to (abyssea / limbus) They would have to add a charge just to enter the event (360k per limbus / abyssea run?!? 0.o), and take away all time extensions so that you had 30 minutes per event. Then they would have to make it so that cruor / beast coins only dropped from NMs instead of dropping off of ep mobs. Just imagine the price of ABCs lol.

But then again, if they had done that with abyssea, you wouldn't care about legion, because you would still be trying to gather all your +2 gear right now.

Joe schmoe isn't stupid enough to try and fell cleave Rani with 17 naked WHM mules, and even if he was, who cares?

In summary, being able to buy the gear with points or w/e in legion makes perfect sense.

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There is a charge to enter Limbus, and when it was first released and people were doing it with 12+ people, it cost 360,000+ 0.o Anyway, you could think of tons of differences between Abyssea, Limbus, and Legion. My point was that most of each event would lay untouched if you could just spam the same mobs over and over and amass points to buy the best gear. In Abyssea/Limbus, it was EP mobs. In Legion, we don't know what it is yet. You chose Rani for your example, one of the toughest NM's in Abyssea. Obviously Joe Schmoe wouldn't fell cleave that. In fact, nobody would ever fight it after getting Shinryu access if you could purchase the Epona's Ring from killing trash mobs. Do you think people will ever touch Paramount Botulus or some of the other harder Legion mobs if they could get every single drop from farming the easier mob types? It doesn't make sense from a design perspective. I am unconvinced that paying 360,000 and having a 30 minute event (which has no cooldown) entitles you to that scenario simply because there is a lack of "traditional EP mobs."

Don't get me wrong though, I hope drop rates in Legion are very forgiving and the stuff you can buy with points is good. I am sick of 0.001% drop rates and want to see people actually walk out of Legion with stuff besides logs.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

There is a charge to enter Limbus, and when it was first released and people were doing it with 12+ people, it cost 360,000+ 0.o Anyway, you could think of tons of differences between Abyssea, Limbus, and Legion. My point was that most of each event would lay untouched if you could just spam the same mobs over and over and amass points to buy the best gear. In Abyssea/Limbus, it was EP mobs. In Legion, we don't know what it is yet. You chose Rani for your example, one of the toughest NM's in Abyssea. Obviously Joe Schmoe wouldn't fell cleave that. In fact, nobody would ever fight it after getting Shinryu access if you could purchase the Epona's Ring from killing trash mobs.

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I have a really hard time believing that legion is going to be a room full of ep-em mobs that are so weak that you can mow through them with 1-2 people. Everything you are saying is assuming that there will be fodder mobs that drop great gear. If the mobs are that weak, then joe schmoe will just plow through them, and get everything for his mules anyways, point system or not.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

Do you think people will ever touch Paramount Botulus or some of the other harder Legion mobs if they could get every single drop from farming the easier mob types? It doesn't make sense from a design perspective. I am unconvinced that paying 360,000 and having a 30 minute event (which has no cooldown) entitles you to that scenario simply because there is a lack of "traditional EP mobs."

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Why would fodder mobs be worth the same amount of points as botulus legion guy? why not make the points from fodder mobs so small in comparison that it would be foolish to attempt to get good gear that way? or just assign 2 different point systems. One for regular gear, and one for NM gear, that can only be attained from NMs? like they do with trophies and cruor. There has to be a million different ways to implement a point system that would be more fair and predictable than dumb luck.

On a side note, if your against joe getting his gear the easy way... why support a system that might give him the best drop on his first run?

You keep drawing similarities to the EP-EM mobs of other events when that isn't my point. I know very well there are no EP mobs in Legion, which you can tell from the last post of mine you quoted. I also never assumed the weaker Legion mobs will drop great gear. I don't expect them to, because judging from the list of mobs there appear to be a series of NM's and "Paramount" bosses IIRC.

You are the one who advocated for a system where killing weaker NM's over and over again will get you access to the best drops in the event. I'm saying if that were the case in previous events like Abyssea and Limbus, the hardest NM's would lay untouched. That is bad from a design perspective and an exploitative perspective. I'm actually in support of the points ideas or trophy idea you stated, which someone else echoed from several pages back. So we agree on that.

In the end, I think it's premature to continue this discussion till we know more about the event.

Personally, I am kind of worried about specific NMs only dropping specific items since Legion points apparently won't buy you items dropped inside. So, unless there's a certain level of predictability in a given foe making an appearance, it's possible a group/alliance could go a number of runs without seeing a mob they'd like. This gets even worse if the desired foe is particularly cheesy, like the difference between Rani and Sippoy even though both are caturae. Finally, you'll have the actual drop rate to take into consideration, which only invites drama if you're looking at 36 people wanting the same thing that drops rarely that may have a 1/x chance showing. It's shades of Leech King and Argus, really.

Now, this isn't to say mobs can't share loot pools, but it'll probably be something like 5% to access all the available head pieces, then whatever percentage is based on those numbers. So, if there were 5 possible head armors, that'd be 20% chance for one you want against that 5%, for a 1% drop rate per kill. That just gets worse the more you possibilities you add, like with all the different weapon types.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

You keep drawing similarities to the EP-EM mobs of other events when that isn't my point. I know very well there are no EP mobs in Legion, which you can tell from the last post of mine you quoted. I also never assumed the weaker Legion mobs will drop great gear. I don't expect them to, because judging from the list of mobs there appear to be a series of NM's and "Paramount" bosses IIRC.

You are the one who advocated for a system where killing weaker NM's over and over again will get you access to the best drops in the event. I'm saying if that were the case in previous events like Abyssea and Limbus, the hardest NM's would lay untouched. That is bad from a design perspective and an exploitative perspective. I'm actually in support of the points ideas or trophy idea you stated, which someone else echoed from several pages back. So we agree on that.

In the end, I think it's premature to continue this discussion till we know more about the event.

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If the object isn't to kill as many mobs as possible, then what is the point? Why not just make them instanced if people are just going to be able to pick the one bad ass mob and spam it? Why not just say "360k to pop botulus legion guy"? I thought the whole point of this event was to spam as many mobs as possible. If its just going to be "Pay 360k and get a chance at fighting that one NM that has the cool drop.." then they might as well just add the mobs to voidwatch.

My hope for legion was to have it like a Boss Battle mode in many single player games:
You fight tougher and tougher HNM's in sequence until you get to the final baddie. You try to do this before you time out. The further you get the more points you accrue. Points are then spent on good gear.

If you want add temps and time extensions at certain way points to maybe extend the event to one hour. It's not dissimilar to einherjar or salvage except you eliminate the trash mobs and just have players defeating the big bosses and seeing how far they can get.

This eliminates the risk of people just doing trash mobs for points.

But sadly SE always seems to want to complicate things and I suspect legion will have its share of complications.

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Originally Posted by Mirabelle

My hope for legion was to have it like a Boss Battle mode in many single player games:
You fight tougher and tougher HNM's in sequence until you get to the final baddie. You try to do this before you time out. The further you get the more points you accrue. Points are then spent on good gear.

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That's kinda how I imagine the dungeon crawl system to be like. Or I'd like it to be, rather. So far I'm pretty happy about what SE told us about Legion as well.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

If the object isn't to kill as many mobs as possible, then what is the point? Why not just make them instanced if people are just going to be able to pick the one bad ass mob and spam it? Why not just say "360k to pop botulus legion guy"? I thought the whole point of this event was to spam as many mobs as possible. If its just going to be "Pay 360k and get a chance at fighting that one NM that has the cool drop.." then they might as well just add the mobs to voidwatch.

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As far as I know, the point is to kill as many mobs as possible, including but not limited to the bad ass ones. I don't think they intend for people to find the easiest mob and spam it for points, but Camate can speak to that better than I can.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

As far as I know, the point is to kill as many mobs as possible, including but not limited to the bad ass ones. I don't think they intend for people to find the easiest mob and spam it for points, but Camate can speak to that better than I can.

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From what we've been told each monster will have its own drops so if you want a certain drop you'll have to repeat a chamber and possibly plow through a set or two to get access to the NM you want.

Lets just say for example one chamber has the 3 kings which then is followed by the reskins followed by a Paramount mob. To get a paramount drop you'd have to beat the wave one, wave two and then beat the Paramount.

If each monster has a unique drop you might see individuals picking a certain mob to kill only while saccing the others away to get the desired mob to pop.