Bully: it's really bad.

Yeah they removed the ability for OPs to lock their threads about 2 months ago.

I figure that the people who are complaining that 1 in 3 is still not enough, are 'pink' and would never dream of tanking or soloing anything (other than farming). Unfortunately now that anyone with a half decent LS can get 5/5 +2, there are idiots running around in the best gear now too, not just in pink. This makes them harder to spot.

I agree Babeke.

I know i happen to have far better gear than probably half the THF's posting here, Up to and including Mandau shortly, I've actually heard of Macros and use them vastly, and i happen to think this adjustment is absolutely brilliant, You know why?

Just like Nynja more or less said, Sure, Its only 1 in 3, But what was it before? Oh right, 0 in 3. My bad. I can see how this is such a terrible improvement. Maybe we should go back to 0 in 3, that'd work. [sarcasm]Lets give Bully its TH upgrade back since this SA thing is soooo terrible[/sarcasm]

What else can they realistically ask for? Even if its 1/3 (At best 2/3) its still 100/200% Better than what we could do before,and while it will not fix THF overnight/alone, Its a magnificent boost and one of the best Update's to DD THF has gotten since Assassin (and arguably, Feint).

Again, It won't fix THF overnight, But this is a Fix we've been asking for, in fact "A JA or JT That allows you to SA from any direction" has been asked for for a very long time here, Its in my Master Compilation thread even, and now it can be checked off.

Frankly, half of the people asking for that JA Expected SA to not get any DEX boost as a nerf to it, we just got a completely unimpeded Frontal SA 1/3 or 2/3rds of the time depending on the situation.

this ability and realize it went from completely shit to amazingly useful practically overnight, and we can stop asking for shit for it now. Now we play the waiting game for level 99.

They've given us our Inch in the DD department, Ask for the mile at level 99 and beyond. Just because we hit 99 doesn't mean job adjustments will stop coming (We got a lot at level 75)

I never understood the problem with THF if u were good at the job, Thief is one of the few DD's i see doing more that 2k on VWNMS someone explain to me please.

Big number syndrome and/or other DD's are terrible.

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Originally Posted by Corvin

I never understood the problem with THF if u were good at the job, Thief is one of the few DD's i see doing more that 2k on VWNMS someone explain to me please.

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THF has a fundamental lack of attack/accuracy for HNM, so we start weaker to begin with.

It's mostly that we have to rely on Sneak and Trick Attack to see those kind of decent numbers from WS. All of our HNM WS are garbage unstacked.

SA/TA present a certain set of restrictions:

The recast timers are a pretty big bottleneck for damage, especially when you start adding haste into the picture.

Due to the positional requirements/running around and dynamic battles (more of an issue in casual play, big group events, exp than HNM etc) even the best of us will not be able to land them or make use of them 100% of the time as timer's allow.

This is less of a positional issue for larger VWNM which are actually "tanked" so it is easier to move around. But Treasure Hunter is pretty useless there, and it's all about staggers. So balls to the wall damage is not really the point any more.

The WS disadvatange is that most other DD's do not have timers to wait on or positional requirements to fulfil in order for their WS to not suck. Then things like low native ACC/ATT, no subtle blow etc.

But THF was never meant to be on that level. A good THF is something to behold. There aren't many, so when you see one do something you haven't seen other THFs do...its like "What are these guys TALKING about? THF is AMAZING."

But this is really just a product of an amazing player...not that THF is an amazing DD job. That amazing player would do crazy amazing damage on a better DD job. But no one plays THF JUST because they wanted to be a DD. There's more draw to it than that.

The problem, I find, is that the gap right now is very large. As easy as it is for every DD to cap gear haste and stack more from other sources, the damage boost from SA and TA is far too low to stay competetive (if they even connect or it is possible to make use of them).

Like it or not THF IS a DD, part of its utility is tied to the damage it does. If our damage is too lacking, so is our utility....

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Specializing in covert actions, Thieves (THF) aim for the perfect opportunity to attack the enemy

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One of the key issues is right here. The last time THF learned a "perfect opportunity to attack" type ability was level 30. These abilites were designed around group dynamics that no longer exist.

People seem to forget that THF used to be an AMAZING DD in exp parties (one of the best, actually). Closing a monsterous SATA VB distortion skillchain for mages to magic burst was one of the best things around.

The damage payoff for making SATA lines and catering to THF's positional playstyle was quite large.

Fast forward to present day: No one makes skill chains on purpose and even our weaponskills combined with sneak attack and trick attack don't measure up to other DD's regular WS's.

The damage payoff is no longer worth catering to THF's positional playstyle of DD....so groups don't do it anymore.

And yet, SE still won't let go of this "THF MUST be useless without a group" mentality.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Stop underselling this as "only pinks like it" because its ignorant,

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Uh, Babekeke said that only pinks were complaining about it, pretty much the complete opposite. Read it again:

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

I figure that the people who are complaining that 1 in 3 is still not enough, are 'pink' and would never dream of tanking or soloing anything (other than farming). Unfortunately now that anyone with a half decent LS can get 5/5 +2, there are idiots running around in the best gear now too, not just in pink. This makes them harder to spot.

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Holy hell, how did I miss this thread? Yay us! I'm not usually one to get involved with the white knight side of these things, but holy crap does even a small buff to THF feel good. And to think there's people who think 5% DA isn't good enough!

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

THF merit stuff

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Personally, I would be happy if they reworked Hide so that it worked on NM/HNM quality mobs, and then had recast- merits for it at 99. It would give THF another tool to SA in a group setting, possibly combined with TA. Better than that, it would actually allow THF to dump aggro in a group setting, making Collaborator much less useless than it currently is. Something simple but effective. Say, 5 merits to get it down to 2:30. It's more synergistic with how SE seems to want THF to function.

I'm sure there's something obvious I'm missing some obvious function in my sleep deprived state, but considering what Bully just became I don't think doing what I stated above is out of the question.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

Uh, Babekeke said that only pinks were complaining about it, pretty much the complete opposite. Read it again:

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Lies!

Lies and Slander.

Edited to reflect.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Lies!

Lies and Slander.

Edited to reflect.

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I was just replying to your top thread when I noticed that you must have edited it since I went to the page... no longer telling me to hold my tongue ;p

For the record, you weren't on the list of people I was referring to :D

Played with Bully 3.0 on the test server. It works as promised. No hidden "does not stack with WS" or "dex bonus is halved" clauses. The effect is still a mob debuff so I'm gonna assume for now that anyone will be able to SA from anywhere as long as the effect is up. The only downside is that in at least 10 uses of the JA solo I did not get a single intimidate on EP mobs. I'm not gonna complain though. The intimidate is now the sideshow and SA from anywhere is the main attraction.