Ok...let me level with you here SE...

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Why would you look for people to play the jobs your mule/mules does/do? Even if you don't have mules, and no one in your alliance of relic holders has mules, you act like it would be difficult to shout and get those people by offering them, and only them, lotting rights on all drops. Those items for the glowy trial would probably be worth a few mil still, and some of the drops from the other NMs aren't cheap either. Plus you can get 100's.

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Content that requires you to pay for more than one character and/or break the ToS is not reasonable

I'm not going to say you couldn't find some saps that don't realize they are screwing themselves accepting a 9 way split on 200 currency and a chance at useless gear instead of soloing dynamis on pretty much any job but I don't think those would be people you want to put your trust in for a fight like ADL. Try just doing regular dynamis farming with a a couple randoms and see how you feel about it.

I can count on one hand the number of people that have helped me get a relic. Most of my relic was self-funded via crafting/farming etc. The rest that wasn't self-funded was due to contributions by a few friends (contributions in terms of time and effort, not gil or currency).

I run with a small group of friends because I've been burned by large linkshells where certain members have gotten a ton of gear, or finished a relic or an empyrean weapon and bolted. It seemed to happen in just about every large linkshell I've ever been in. Worst thing is, when my turn came around the linkshell is just so empty by people who thought the grass was greener (This happened more than once). I just won't do large points-based linkshells anymore because "fool me twice, shame on me."

However, I'm extremely fortunate that I picked the right group of people as friends and they picked me. We help each other out with just about everything.

Here is what I needed help with for completing my relic:

1.) Two friends to help with getting my Attestation
2.) Two friends to help with getting my Fragment
3.) One friend helped me with the Beacedine NM trial. I shouted for 2 other people to come along
4.) Three friends helped me with the Xarcabard NM trial.

We did farm currency together as well on different occasions. However, I only really farmed about one-third of Stage 4 and about one-third of the last stage once Dynamis was changed. When farming currency I made sure that it was beneficial to the one other person or two other people that came in and lent a hand. I'd plan runs around getting them gear they wanted or needed like Assassins Armlets or AF-1 pieces, etc.

The only other time I farmed, I joined in with two or three other people organizing runs where we'd split the currency evenly. Again, everyone walks away with something.

All in all, I've done most of the work myself with much-appreciated contributions by only a handful of close friends when I needed it the most. It took me over 3 years to finish my relic. I loathed every step, but I was motivated by the fact that I'd have one of the most powerful weapons available and that I earned it.

This trial nonsense just goes to show you SE has absolutely no idea what the game is like anymore. It's a slap in the face to those players who did a lot of the work themselves or in small groups with friends who were there to help them.

The trial should continue along the way most of the previous trials for relics were: tedious, but able to be accomplished by a small number of people. Something like 100,000 exp in each dynamis zone. Or let the Umbral Marrows be obtainable with currency from the Goblin NPC's. It should be something "REASONABLE" that a person can accomplish outside of depending upon 17 other people on a repeating basis.

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Originally Posted by Anewie

As usual, you're delusional if you think that's all there is to leading a LS.

But considering what type of shell you run/ran, I can level with you and laugh.

Leading and organizing events in a successful active linkshell amongst larger groups is much more than "here u go guyz! KILL THIS!".

Running a shell is hard work, and no one who was a leader or officer in any decent shell will disagree. That stuff can be very annoying.

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The type of shells I run and ran? I'd like to know what internet detective Anewie thinks she knows about my linkshells, lulz.

Running a shell is only hard work if you let it become hard work. If you straddle along a bunch of retards who need everything explained to them in detail before every single event, then you should just /breaklinkshell and get new peeps. See, when you have a shell pull of intelligent, capable players who know what's up, you don't need to tell them much of anything. Everyone's already on the same page. Maybe you should try being in a shell with intelligent people for a change, you might learn something.

What? You think managing drops is super hard? Dealing with everyone's baw baw problems got you down? Not my problem. If your members can't conduct themselves like adults, and you can't handle them, then you just aren't cut out for leadership.

Leading in every shell I've ever run has always been a volunteer matter. It's a bit of extra work for no extra pay and if that's a problem people are always free to stop being a sack. No harm, no foul. Shit's just not that hard, boo.

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Originally Posted by Anewie

As usual, you're delusional if you think that's all there is to leading a LS.

But considering what type of shell you run/ran, I can level with you and laugh.

Leading and organizing events in a successful active linkshell amongst larger groups is much more than "here u go guyz! KILL THIS!".

Running a shell is hard work, and no one who was a leader or officer in any decent shell will disagree. That stuff can be very annoying.

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This purely depends on the Shell-Members you have.

Back on topic, even after 2 days this Trial still sucks hardcore in my eyes. /sigh I would like to have a DEV-Punching bag, but thats just me.

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Originally Posted by Anewie

As usual, you're delusional if you think that's all there is to leading a LS.

But considering what type of shell you run/ran, I can level with you and laugh.

Leading and organizing events in a successful active linkshell amongst larger groups is much more than "here u go guyz! KILL THIS!".

Running a shell is hard work, and no one who was a leader or officer in any decent shell will disagree. That stuff can be very annoying.

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Whatever you think of my leadership ability is irrelevant, but I really have to disagree as well.

All a leader has to do to run and maintain a successful shell is keep an updated schedule, keep an updated points list (if your shell uses points) and keep track of attendance.

And all tasks a leader has can be delegated to officers.

"We meet at this time. We are going to this zone. We are going to kill this mob. This is how we pop it. This is how we're gonna kill it. You, you and you are here. Come on this, this and this job."

That isn't hard work. It's simple organization. It's also not grounds to command your entire shell to spend so much time getting your R/M/E finished first.

I think you guys are disagreeing over the definition of "hard work". In terms of leading a shell, I think there's a definite distinction between "intellectually hard work" and "annoying busywork". Obviously it isn't "intellectually hard work" to do the following:

(i) plan events ahead of time, update /lsmes,
(ii) revise plan after seeing who is online, and deal with QQ from people who wanted X event
(iii) assign jobs to people,
(iv) announce zone and coordinates for targets,
(v) put the ally together and deal with QQ if there is overflow on an 18-person fight,
(vi) decide what the overflow people will do
(vii) in the case of Neo-Dynamis, plan TE path and Tome NM path,
(viii) in the case of Abyssea, plan multiple targets in each zone because otherwise people will QQ that we brought 18 people to each NM,
(ix) in the case of zerg fights like AV or ADL, assign competent party leaders who know exactly who they will invite for BRD/SMN rotation and won't DC
(x) after each kill, manage drops via DKP spreadsheet
(xi) take attendance
(xii) after event, update DKP on website
(xiii) receive excess drops from events and liquidate them for LS payouts, making sure to tabulate gil for each sale so people don't accuse you of running away with LS bank funds like some fear-mongering people think who don't see need for LS bank in 2012
(xiv) deal with /tells from people on a variety of topics, including but not limited to "how much DKP do i have?", "what event are we doing next time?", "how many points is X item?", etc.

These are all things I will do as one of the leaders of my LS where my intelligence or the intelligence of my LS's members aren't actually factors (well, arguably the last item on the list might be!). They just need to get done. It's all the boring "behind the scenes" gruntwork. None of it is "intellectually hard" in the way Greatguardian meant it, but it isn't just "hai guyz go kill X". Sometimes people conflate these things together. I wouldn't call what a stevedore does "intellectually hard work", but it is certainly tiring busywork, and probably hard for that reason. So I agree with both Greatguardian AND Anewie on this one, assuming Anewie meant it was "hard busywork".

All that being said, the best LS's operate via fair DKP systems, and I would never want priority in ANY drops by virtue of the fact I help run mine. It's all voluntary for me, and I enjoy doing it.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Whatever you think of my leadership ability is irrelevant, but I really have to disagree as well.

All a leader has to do to run and maintain a successful shell is keep an updated schedule, keep an updated points list (if your shell uses points) and keep track of attendance.

And all tasks a leader has can be delegated to officers.

"We meet at this time. We are going to this zone. We are going to kill this mob. This is how we pop it. This is how we're gonna kill it. You, you and you are here. Come on this, this and this job."

That isn't hard work. It's simple organization. It's also not grounds to command your entire shell to spend so much time getting your R/M/E finished first.

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This guy knows what's up. White Roses are boss tier.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Content that requires you to pay for more than one character and/or break the ToS is not reasonable

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ZOMG GUIZ, having more then 1 account is against the TOS! You dirty hackers are all going to jail for owning 2 computers and playing 2 accounts at the same time, or partitioning your hard drive, and installing FFXI on both and running 2 from the same PC, or having a 360 and PC and playing on both.... or a PS2... or whatever else.....

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

I'm not going to say you couldn't find some saps that don't realize they are screwing themselves accepting a 9 way split on 200 currency and a chance at useless gear instead of soloing dynamis on pretty much any job but I don't think those would be people you want to put your trust in for a fight like ADL. Try just doing regular dynamis farming with a a couple randoms and see how you feel about it.

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9 way split on currency? Freelot it and call it day. Besides that, most people don't even do dynamis, if you organize something and tell people they might get one of a few different items worth a mil or more, I doubt you'd have much trouble finding people for said event. It's not even like killing ADL wouldn't be fun a few times, there's people who would go just to do that. Or you could offer to pay them 500k or something, that works if you aren't poor. Plus there's this amazing thing called friends. You could try asking them if they want to help you out a few times when you can't find people who actually want to go.

"and/or" means that I consider them 2 different things. I thought that was pretty obvious.

You are failing to look at the big picture. First few months? No problem. 6 months later? A year later? You are f*cked. Everyone else is done and has killed ADL 20-500 times and doesn't give a shit anymore. I'm not saying it will be 100% impossible but it's not reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

"and/or" means that I consider them 2 different things. I thought that was pretty obvious.

You are failing to look at the big picture. First few months? No problem. 6 months later? A year later? You are f*cked. Everyone else is done and has killed ADL 20-500 times and doesn't give a shit anymore. I'm not saying it will be 100% impossible but it's not reasonable.

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I see 20 or more new relics every month on my server, I guess none of those people will ever need ADL though!