"THe Development Team Does Not Currently Have Plans Too..."

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Originally Posted by Xerius

I do realize that it requires a lot of effort to fix a design however, I don't think it's okay for the Dev Team to break the game (like they did with SAM after the WS update) and then just turn a blind eye especially, after pet jobs and magic jobs have been asking for fixes for months now. No one was asking for a WS update and it didn't really solve any problems it actually widened the chasm that made it so only a few jobs were desired for end game.

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Hmm. Sorry if those goes a little off topic, but... could someone ELI5 what's wrong with pet and magic jobs to me? They seem like they would be pretty versatile and reasonably capable of clearing endgame content...

Is it just that people min/max and saving that extra minute on a fight means jobs that are slightly less efficient don't get invited, or is it some deeper flaw with the mechanics of those jobs?

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

All the campaigns only benefit people who do the content and people who are playing during the campaign. This example is no different from any other campaign in that respect and requires far less code than some.

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I don't think you get my point, campaigns are just bonus, not an in game issue that requires a fix. It is not a big deal if SE didn't respond properly for requests like this.

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Originally Posted by Ris

Hmm. Sorry if those goes a little off topic, but... could someone ELI5 what's wrong with pet and magic jobs to me? They seem like they would be pretty versatile and reasonably capable of clearing endgame content...

Is it just that people min/max and saving that extra minute on a fight means jobs that are slightly less efficient don't get invited, or is it some deeper flaw with the mechanics of those jobs?

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Well... there is min maxing, and there is terrible balance. A pet job like PUP or BST is likely to put out, at best 50-65 per cent of the output of a SAM - without any real added benefit. SMN also does terrible damage but at least they can buff the party.

BLMs have been screwed by the fact that they have to manage MP ***AND*** their damage output is much lower overall than melee damage dealers... so a similar problem. It wasn't so bad but then SE came in and buffed TP gain AND buffed Weaponskills - leaving magic damage in the dust. Frankly the devs do that too often... bring in updates that buff some jobs (almost always jobs that need no buffs) and then leave everything else unusable.

Those changes also made gap between pet users and regular melee jobs even bigger.

Honestly if the difference between the best jobs and the rest was like 10 or even 15 per cent people would be annoyed but it wouldn't just be plain stupid to bring those jobs. As it is now, these jobs are just so bad you're holding back your group significantly when you go to events on them. So it goes much further than min-maxing if that makes sense.

Thanks for the explanation. Usually I don't really support DPS job homogenization like WoW and ARR did because, well, it makes them much less interesting... but while I can see a 10% or so DPS difference thanks to utility and buffs and stuff like that.... melee doing 200% of the damage of magic and pet classes does seem a little bit out there...

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Originally Posted by Ris

Thanks for the explanation. Usually I don't really support DPS job homogenization like WoW and ARR did because, well, it makes them much less interesting... but while I can see a 10% or so DPS difference thanks to utility and buffs and stuff like that.... melee doing 200% of the damage of magic and pet classes does seem a little bit out there...

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I also don't want jobs homogenized - it is one of the reasons I don't like FFXIV.

That said, the gap is currently totally unreasonable - especially given the, at best, mediocre utility of these jobs. At least on my BLU I can buff myself, smack stuff with my swords, buff and heal others etc. On BST... well I can hit stuff with my axe and watch my pet whiff...

asking for a simple Double X campaign is hardly an imposition, they are doing them anyway. letting them know what players are actually interested in actually seems more like a helpful thing to me. For example, my interest is the crafting skill-up rate ones, I think they need to be longer given the need to accumulate materials to take advantage of them properly, especially when you have to farm because there are never the right mats on the AH for your level synth-and it may be cost-prohibitive even if they were. I don't think it needs an answer unless it will be a flat denial and then I'd like an explanation why it is denied. After all, at the rate XP accumulates do we REALLY need a steady diet of double XP campaigns? Wouldn't a diet of skill-up campaigns be much more useful to the vast majority of players? If most of us think so, SE should probably be made aware of that.

But requests for things like increasing the damage, accuracy and defense of jug pets to be in line with what they were pre-ilevel days, that deserves an explanation as a beast can only function in end-game content with jug pets, and with the reduced stats we are not just ineffective but an actual liability, coupled with being the only pet job that has to pay to participate that's a huge concern. And as most of those issues are universal to ALL pet jobs that's over 1/6 of available jobs stuck in that boat. SE made the job system on the assumption that any job can function so you could play the way you like; getting no answer from them and the even less useful "level something else" from the players goes beyond being ignored into the realm of the deliberate insult. Answers are warranted when you are to all intents and purposes deleting 4/22 of the available jobs from endgame. The answer they've given of using job points is wholly unsatisfactory as we will be spending ours just to play catch-up to where jobs with no JP spent are currently, they will be spending to improve their performance above their base capabilities. I can't see it as rudeness or an imposition for pet job players en masse to be asking for a bit of a dialog there. We need to make plans if we are to scrap our pet jobs and still play, or to decide if next month's subscription fees are worth spending if we are that tied to the job we like.

and the pet job issue is just an example of the kinds of questions we are asking that deserve real answers. Look how long it's taken red mages begging to finally be given relevance again, and even that is really only if your primary DD will be rangers or corsairs. How often were red mages getting any reply, once every 4 months on average, only to be told there were no plans? In what way, shape, form or fashion is that to be considered acceptable when you created a forum to have a dialog with players? no, OP's question and the major support he's gotten from players agreeing with him is completely justified. Now, I'll agree that given the tone of some posters (and the asinine requests of others) there are times when SE should not just ignore the poster and their question but give serious consideration to adding a dunce cap to their avatar but that still leaves about 75% of posts as worthy of a reply to the thread-granted, if there are 6 threads all saying the same thing I don't believe they need to reply in all 6-but at least 1 would be very nice.

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Originally Posted by Olor

Well... there is min maxing, and there is terrible balance. A pet job like PUP or BST is likely to put out, at best 50-65 per cent of the output of a SAM - without any real added benefit. SMN also does terrible damage but at least they can buff the party.

BLMs have been screwed by the fact that they have to manage MP ***AND*** their damage output is much lower overall than melee damage dealers... so a similar problem. It wasn't so bad but then SE came in and buffed TP gain AND buffed Weaponskills - leaving magic damage in the dust. Frankly the devs do that too often... bring in updates that buff some jobs (almost always jobs that need no buffs) and then leave everything else unusable.

Those changes also made gap between pet users and regular melee jobs even bigger.

Honestly if the difference between the best jobs and the rest was like 10 or even 15 per cent people would be annoyed but it wouldn't just be plain stupid to bring those jobs. As it is now, these jobs are just so bad you're holding back your group significantly when you go to events on them. So it goes much further than min-maxing if that makes sense.

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Not even just that. Mages also have an extremely hard time managing their enmity which is pathetic when you compare how much damage a BLM will do compared to a RNG which is virtually hateless and to make it even more lolsy our best DD spell is stuck on a 10 minute timer.

DRG has struggled as a melee job for years because if they ask for a damage upgrade their told they have wyverns that help balance damage (which it doesn't) and if they ask for pet buffs they're told that the dev team is afraid they'll become too powerful (which they won't).

BST has never been able to get into parties no matter what they've done with the job. SMN while they have their buffs, things like Avatar's Favor's 'charge time' make it nigh impossible to actually reach your full potential. RDM still hasn't really found a niche except within RNG parties.

If you're a BLU you're certainly not setting magic spells unless it's for a JA and no one knows whether GEO is supposed to deal damage, debuff or support.

Sorry if that was a little ranty, talking about this stuff always gets me heated.

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Originally Posted by Xerius

and no one knows whether GEO is supposed to deal damage, debuff or support.

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All of the above, and then some. A well played Geo is top tier now, easily.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

asking for a simple Double X campaign is hardly an imposition, they are doing them anyway. letting them know what players are actually interested in actually seems more like a helpful thing to me.

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Asking dev to implement some short term instant gratification in this game is fine.

Asking dev to implement some short term instant gratification then started a forum thread demanding a proper reply including "why" and "when" is asking too much.

.....Hello SE! I'd like an ergon weapon deliver to my inbox so I can be super happy for next 1 month, if you guys are not planning on it please explain why it breaks the game and what's your next plan to keep me happy, thanks!

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Originally Posted by Xerius

Not even just that. Mages also have an extremely hard time managing their enmity which is pathetic when you compare how much damage a BLM will do compared to a RNG which is virtually hateless and to make it even more lolsy our best DD spell is stuck on a 10 minute timer.

DRG has struggled as a melee job for years because if they ask for a damage upgrade their told they have wyverns that help balance damage (which it doesn't) and if they ask for pet buffs they're told that the dev team is afraid they'll become too powerful (which they won't).

BST has never been able to get into parties no matter what they've done with the job. SMN while they have their buffs, things like Avatar's Favor's 'charge time' make it nigh impossible to actually reach your full potential. RDM still hasn't really found a niche except within RNG parties.

If you're a BLU you're certainly not setting magic spells unless it's for a JA and no one knows whether GEO is supposed to deal damage, debuff or support.

Sorry if that was a little ranty, talking about this stuff always gets me heated.

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The only one I can kind of see being OK like that is BST, since that was always meant to be a soloist job in a party based game. Buuut.. even in the early 2000s, I think I remember SE using the "we're afraid X will become too powerful" excuse. Sounds like they would be better off making something a little too powerful and then scaling back a bit than leaving things like this, though....

I did see DRG got some buffs recently. Did that help them at all or is it still loldrg?