Haste and You... A guide to the misinformed.

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Originally Posted by Frost

Double attack works differently. For every percent of DA you add you're taking away form the pool you can add to.... And it only adds a static number.

For instance: If you attack 100 times and 10 of those hits are double attacks, that means you attack 110 times roughly.

If you add 10% more double attack to that, you are adding 10% double attack to 90% of the hits... so 9% DA is added bringing your total attacks out of 100 to 119, this is called "Diminishing returns". (Someone please correct me if I got that wrong)

Where as say, you had 10% haste and added 10% more... Look at the chart on page one... (lol...)

20% DA = 19% more attacks
20% Haste = 25% more attacks.

Make sense?

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you've got the diminishing returns thing a bit wrong. if you have 10% DA and add 10% more, you will come out with 120 attacks on average (per 100 swings). The way diminishing returns works is the effective PERCENTAGE increase of DPS from stacking additional DA gets lower as your DA gets higher. 0% DA to 10% DA would be a 10% increase in DPS. 10% DA (110 swings average) to 20% DA (120 swings average) is a (10/110) ~9% increase.

Haste works differently. It has exponentially increasing returns. As haste% approaches 100%, DPS approaches infinity. The more haste you have, the higher the +percentage DPS of adding more.

http://www.ffxiah.com/screenshots/39303 - DA vs Haste. y-axis is relative increase per point added; it's not suggesting that DA decreases your damage which is a common misconception.

Also for the sake of nipping a semantics argument in the bud, Haste isn't technically an exponential return, instead a f(haste) = 100x/(100 - (y + x)) form, where x is haste added and y previous haste. It approaches infinity as (y + x) approaches 100 as the function becomes undefined although the trend is similar to an exponential one in the given domain of x and y ((x+y) <= 80 for the sake of game mechanics).

very nice guide. could you add the delay- difference between haste gear and dual wield+ gear too?

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Originally Posted by Kjara

very nice guide. could you add the delay- difference between haste gear and dual wield+ gear too?

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Yes, total delay reduction is 80% can be achieved from both Dual Wield and haste sources. I forgot the formula but they are calculated independently with haste being considered first, then DW.

Dual Wield works exactly the same as Haste (and 1% DW will reduce delay as an absolute value by the same amount as 1% Haste); there are however two complications:

1. Haste does not lower tp/hit. Dual Wield does. As a general rule, Dual Wield leaves WS frequency roughly the same if not slightly better whereas Haste increases it in the same vein as it increases DoT.
2. While 0=>1% Haste and DW are identical, you often have more than one of the other. 40=>41% Haste is a greater increase than 15=>16% DW for instance even ignoring WS frequency differences.
3. There is an overall delay reduction cap of 80%. You do not add your DW and Haste together when looking for this number. It's multiplicative, ie:

(1 - Haste/100) * (1 - DualWield/100) = 0.2 is your maximum reduction. Plug in your numbers for one or the other and see what the other one comes out as.

What does this mean in terms of actual gearing? Because Haste increases WS frequency greatly and DW leaves it roughly unchanged, it is almost always in your interests to use Haste over Dual Wield unless you are otherwise capped (eg: Haste belt vs Nusku's Sash).

And on a final advanced note, if you are a Dancer or a Ninja (or a dualwielding job under extreme haste buff situations) it can actually be disadvantageous to be wearing any Dual Wield gear at all if you are receiving heavy haste buffs. Plug in a high Haste value to the equation above and see how much Dual Wield caps you: anything beyond that point is potentially hurting your performance, relatively or absolutely.

to make a clear example, do you think Charis Casaque's "Enhances Dual Wield" is better or worse than Rapparee Harness's Haste? (+4 or +5, I forgot.) Everyone tells me Charis Casaque's DW is superior but I couldn't test yet (missing 3 seals ; ; )

According to wiki, Charis Casaque +1 is 5% DW and Rapparee is 4% Haste. I'm going to make the assumption that you have Suppanomimi and Charis Necklace (if you lack the necklace don't worry, it won't change the outcome).

Increase in damage from adding x% Haste/DW is 100x/(100 - (x + y)). Looking at Dual Wield, x in this case is 5 and y is 38 (30% trait, 5% suppa, 3% necklace). Your increase in damage is therefore

(100 * 5) / (100 - (5 + 38)) = 500/57 = 8.77% - this is largely a DoT increase as, as we discussed before, WS frequency remains ~same.

I haven't looked at much DNC specific gear but I am going to assume you can cap Haste fairly easily when using a Rapparee Harness, so I'm going to use the perhaps artificial example where this brings you from 21=>25% Haste and also going to include your 10% Haste Samba. Using same formula as above,

(100 * 4) / (100 - (4 + 31)) = 400/65 = 6.15% increase in both DoT AND WS frequency. In an externally unbuffed situation (more buffs making Rapparee considerably better), Charis provides ~2% more DoT but ~4-6% less TP gain. Typically I would expect as a DNC you'd prefer the latter and especially if you are being externally buffed (which will make the DoT difference shrink and even make Rapparee win at higher haste levels, while making the TP gain difference grow in Rapparee's favour).

Tl;dr version is unless you are not getting the full 4% benefit from Rapparee or otherwise capped, use Rapparee over Charis +1. However, you should probably use Charis +2 over Rapparee (unless the difference in TP gain is worth giving up a significant DoT advantage, which it may be in some situations) unless you are receiving Haste buffs to the point Dual Wield starts to become useless/a hindrance (in accordance with the overall delay reduction cap addressed above).

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Originally Posted by Kjara

to make a clear example, do you think Charis Casaque's "Enhances Dual Wield" is better or worse than Rapparee Harness's Haste? (+4 or +5, I forgot.) Everyone tells me Charis Casaque's DW is superior but I couldn't test yet (missing 3 seals ; ; )

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First, Thanks RaenRyong!

I PERSONALLY... I would use the Charis Casque +2(And I DO use it) The bonus supposedly is 10% DW, BUT, over all it does have really good stats, AND I think you can cap haste W/out Raparee, so it's a moot point anyways. (Charis Tiara +2(6), Charis Toe Shoes +2(4), Charis Tights +2(5), Twilight Belt(7), Ocelot Gloves(3) = ~25% (yes I know it's not 26% Dusk +1 is!))

So my Dnc is 25% haste, DW IV, 18% DW, Haste Samba 15%

I AM talking about the +2 here, so that's kinda cheating, and in doing so one must consider the Bonuses added to sambas.

Naturebeckles is doing it right, swaping gear gets you killed.
so V.helm or af3 head for fudo sam?
one is good for fudo but other is good for the haste I can't choice one.
Thought this would be a good place to ask.

thanks a lot for the answers^^