On Red Mage melee...

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Except rdm still couldn't put out the kinds of #'s you are saying, and i have done rdm/nin blau/joytoy on colibri, it doesnt work, lol.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Truth be told I don't know how a RDM would perform, probably in the 15-20% range if I had to make a logical guess(if that).

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OBJECTION!!

Lol you think you caught me contradicting myself? I never specified what colibri i was doing it on, but good going bro.

Edit: saying I did it on colibri was probably not smart on my behalf, but my statement holds strong, and i know the capabilities of a rdm, no snot like you who prides themselves on trying to outwit and fool a BG shark such as myself is going to do anything but dance around foolishly and go "teehee look at me i think i made them mad" gg bro.

you do realize that he's comparing himself to the SECOND bard, right? the first bard sings march and the second bard sings.....more march? no?


this isn't really a debate i wanted in on but it's like you're not even reading what you reply to...

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

you do realize that he's comparing himself to the SECOND bard, right? the first bard sings march and the second bard sings.....more march? no?


this isn't really a debate i wanted in on but it's like you're not even reading that you reply to...

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Taking a 2nd brd over a COR is pretty stupid.

I have a hard time believing a RDM can keep 6x Hastes, 1-2 Refreshes, Dia 3s on *every* mob, full Cures for both bards and the melee (or the melee, the bard, and the Cor) while finding time in there to actually swing his sword in a party that is actually any good.

Read: Both bards are pulling, the entire area is being cleared, melees are riding Hasso like good little boys and girls, and monsters are dead in 10 seconds tops. A distracted DD wouldn't even have time to pull out his weapon on every fight in a good party. And a RDM is supposedly able to handle near-constant casting while being able to draw their swords and deal 80% of the damage of a real DD?

Bullshit. I'd even venture to say that a RDM doing its support job properly would be running into severe MP issues if they were using a non-mage sub, completely ignoring the time lost trying to whack things. Going from /SCH to /NIN is a huge efficiency drop.

Edit: This too

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Taking a 2nd brd over a COR is pretty stupid.

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And a COR can pretty handily decimate a RDM on the parse. Example: Brd/Cor(me)/Nin(Noelel)/Mnk(Krispy)/Drg(Sasumi)/idkmage Greater Colibri parse. Krispy is a member of Excellence ls, so it's pretty much a given that he's high-end.

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...140aced0ba.png

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...d5065f1d14.png

That's while being cheap and saving cards =/ and my Cor isn't even super high end to boot.

Could you guys, you know, take this debate where it matters, like back to 2008?

Let me end this right here in favor of the BG guys so they can go home.

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I have a hard time believing a RDM can keep 6x Hastes, 1-2 Refreshes, Dia 3s on *every* mob, full Cures for both bards and the melee (or the melee, the bard, and the Cor) while finding time in there to actually swing his sword in a party that is actually any good.

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You're correct. Even in the Starfox Parse he did not, once, admit to keeping up a full haste cycle. In fact, his function was, like as described previously (that Saevel stated at his first post, which clearly points out that you're not reading in full) that the position in conflict was the 'second support'. Assuming a 4 DD + BRD/COR + Healer, with the RDM/NIN taking the 6th slot.

Haste is covered by the healer, with the exception of the RDM/NIN who hastes himself. RDM/NIN's casting duties relies mostly on maintaining self buffs (Haste, Refresh, Utsusemi and Enspell.) And maintaining a constant Dia II/III on the party target. If the healer had no native refresh, RDM/NIN gave it to them. Also, cure assistance was given in times where needed. (Say the WHM was buffing someone and RDM had an opportunity to slip in a cure to save the WHM some time/mp/risk) As well as crowd control during times the puller (likely brd) had difficulty.

My primary investment in this situation was, at that time, to get a party function that allowed me and my fiancee at the time (WHM) an opportunity to merit together on our favorite jobs. This was the best format available, one that Starfox was putting to practice before I had conceptualized it.

Tear it apart however you wish, but do remember that bard+cor parties were not always available to everyone even at that time, and doing so would have kept our characters apart (As if the RDM+WHM stigma itself wasn't enough.).

Oh, to answer the obvious question: I was leveling BLU at the time ,but breaks got put onto that project due to many RL problems. (I'm only now beginning to work together a possible return to BLU, 3 years later and bereft the fiance no less.)

I don't care what/why you did something in some 8-person party, or 7? I'm obviously not reading in full so please fill me in on how 4 DDs, a Brd, a Cor, a Healer, and a Rdm can fit in a party. Or just 4 DDs, a Brd or Cor, a Healer, and a Rdm works out. Is this an outside healer?

Regardless, I never claimed that someone supposedly did that. I'm saying exactly the opposite. If a RDM is going to be expected to perform support duties, there is no way in hell they will have time to DD worth a crap. And if they are not providing support/healing duties? Whose spot are they taking? A Bard's? A Corsair's? Or a DD's?

All 3 will contribute significantly more to a group than adding a RDMDD. I'm not really sure how people are rationalizing trading a second Bard for a RDM. It's "just" Minuets? Like RCB is "just" food, right? And Dia3 supposedly makes up for this? You're forgetting yet again that RDM isn't contributing Dia 3. It's contributing the difference in value between Dia 2 and Dia 3, because any WHM or BRD worth their salt is already hitting every mob with that enfeeble.

If you want to talk about throwing a lackluster job into a lackluster party and getting lackluster results, go ahead. It's apparently the goal to bring everything down to the level of the lowest common denominator because some people are completely incapable of knowing people with Bard or Corsair leveled. But that has no bearing on an environment where the party itself is not total crap.

Ah blinded by love. I knew rational thought couldn't have led you to claim a rdm could hang with a melee dd.

if i may play devils advocate for a moment..

lets take a hypothetical party. DD/DD/DD/BRD/BRD/RDM. now you can say whatever you want about lolsecond brd or nub get a cor, but you all know this was a very common and acceptable setup.

now.. lets just say.. you drop the second brd for a meleeing rdm, and fill the old rdms slot with any deidcated healer. so you end up with something like this.

DD/DD/DD/BRD/meleeRDM/WHM

now.. how different are these parties really? the second has better healing and equivelant longevity (since either way the primary healer has 2x ballad and refresh on him)

so the big question is damage. obviously the difference between dia2 and dia3 is less good than the loss of minuet, and the rdm might be casting that ANYWAY.. but people seem to disregard that the rdm is doing at least SOME damage on his own. so it's not the rdm vs any DD. it's all of the dmg the rdm does vs the difference in dmg of the other 3 DD's with minuet vs without.

i don't think the sky would fall.... the only significant weak point i see here is, potentially, pulling.



just sayin'

The group is losing a ton of overall damage by adding a Red Mage over a 2x Minuet Bard. The difference in healing is negligible since neither party is going to have deaths if they are even half good.

You're looking at adding in one Red Mage's damage (who is not getting attack buffs btw, Marches/Haste only) as opposed to adding 2x Minuets to 3 Heavy DDs.

Would the "sky fall"? Subjective. Is the exchange anywhere near equivalent? No, it really isn't. Think of it this way. What would have happened if a THF replaced that minuetBRD? Exactly. And Thf is a stronger DD than Rdm to boot.

That's not even getting into the business of Corsair, which was significantly better in that slot than both Bard and Red Mage combined. Corsair is a stronger DD than Red Mage, and can give a buff comparable to Minuet while also boosting EXP and giving the mage a second Refresh.

I always liked
DD DD BRD BRD COR Healer
But it required very good DDs!

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

I always liked
DD DD BRD BRD COR Healer
But it required very good DDs!

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I was the Cor for one of these once. It was absolutely divine. I wish I parsed it. Rather, I think I might've, let's see.

Edit: Okay, yeah, I still have some of it. This is ye olde 2009, MJSP.

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...399d8bac90.png

If a Corsair, fully buffed, was doing 50%~ the damage of the DDs, there is no way in hell that a RDM is going to be doing anywhere near 80%.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Would the "sky fall"? Subjective.

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Not really, because in both of the set-ups above as long as everyone doesn't suck you should already be at the point where you are waiting on the Colibri to respawn anyway.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Not really, because in both of the set-ups above as long as everyone doesn't suck you should already be at the point where you are waiting on the Colibri to respawn anyway.

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In a Whm Brd Rdm DD DD DD setup? I'll believe it when I see it.

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As for the entire "why take 80% when you can have 100%", it's a trap. The argument actually has no meaning because it preemptively subtracts from the RDM and limits them to "80%" while ignoring what they gain. In effect it's saying a RDM without MP, without Dia, without Cure IV, sleeps, are all only "80%" and that the other nameless DD is given all it's options / ability's at 100%. RDM's sacrifice damage potential for utility. Back in the day's of "6-man" groups I would do...

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It's hardly a trap. When your party is 5/6 people and it's time to fill that sixth spot with damage, it's not the time to be looking for emergency cures, a Dia your healer or 'lazy bard' could throw up, or even a secondary haster. They just want people who will concentrate on dishing hurt. Concentrating solely on that task, there's no bones about it, RDM fell behind due to native characteristics and gear options.

So, while Abyssea has changed EXPing dynamics from 6 to a possible 18, that 5/6 dilemma still remains for smaller events like BCs. When hitting the search list for a DD, RDM won't be on the radar outside of Azure kills. If the job is supposed to be suitably versatile, it's failing in that task if it will never be invited for an aspect of that versatility. Haters gonna hate, claiming that's how it should be or nothing could be done without godmode, but that only shows their lack of thinking.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Not really, because in both of the set-ups above as long as everyone doesn't suck you should already be at the point where you are waiting on the Colibri to respawn anyway.

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Suck less and kill wivres and colibri

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Originally Posted by Seriha

It's hardly a trap. When your party is 5/6 people and it's time to fill that sixth spot with damage, it's not the time to be looking for emergency cures, a Dia your healer or 'lazy bard' could throw up, or even a secondary haster. They just want people who will concentrate on dishing hurt. Concentrating solely on that task, there's no bones about it, RDM fell behind due to native characteristics and gear options.

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This is the crux of my damage argument. You're not looking for the utility as part of the package. Utility generally plays the role of "well, that really helped" when the party is in a pinch. It is never a point of consideration when putting the party together. The "here and the now" of the job/class is what is measured when building the group. In the old days we also saw the variation, which was "good groups don't run into X, so Y piece of utility is moot. Now get in the back and refresh me".

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If the job is supposed to be suitably versatile, it's failing in that task if it will never be invited for an aspect of that versatility. Haters gonna hate, claiming that's how it should be or nothing could be done without godmode, but that only shows their lack of thinking.

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Well, yes. The devs seem to be bent on giving everyone very different roles for the sake of making the jobs different rather than create templates or criteria that allow said jobs to partake on certain roles.

The main issue is the fact that the hybrids become tricky (but not impossible) to balance at that point. I wouldn't mind seeing multiple roles open up for RDM, BLU, PLD and DRK, but the developers seem to take issue with that for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

In a Whm Brd Rdm DD DD DD setup? I'll believe it when I see it.

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Well, he's half right.

Like everyone else, I spent more time than I would've liked at Colibri camps, but as a pulling BRD. It's not a good setup, but WHM BRD RDM DD DD DD could certainly clear all the birds at the middle camp. What that party setup couldn't do is kill the Wivres, pull from the bottom birds camp, and pull Mamool from up top in addition to keeping all the middle birds cleared.

RDM is a waste of a party slot in that configuration, DDing or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

When your party is 5/6 people and it's time to fill that sixth spot with damage, it's not the time to be looking for emergency cures, a Dia your healer or 'lazy bard' could throw up, or even a secondary haster.

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Wow, you'd have to be crazy to pass up a second BRD for that 6th spot, especially if meriting on Nyzul Mamool or at MMJSP North. 114 attack from double minuets (and the situational madrigal when dealing with THF/NIN Mamools, depending on the quality of DDs) is not insignificant. And I guarantee you that the 'lazy BRD' role at Nyzul Mamool or MMJSP North was anything but lazy.

You're assuming the hypothetical party wasn't 2x BRD, healer, 2x DDs already. Overall, the 'lazy BRD' role was the one who'd just sit at the camp while the other pulled. Would you get the occasional double pullers? Sure, but then that also starts stepping into outside healer territory, which I dare say wasn't common in all the time I spent poking peckers and such. So, yeah, find something else in your unerring fascination with me to nitpick.

No...it's not being a lazy brd if you help cure the DDs/sleep incoming mobs so that the other brd can keep pulling/give them time to cast minuets(in my case i would have the "lazy brd" as you put it sing marches because they're always at camp). You dont need an outside healer unless its a mule or something, but these kinds of parties certainly weren't "rare" as you claimed them to be.

It was determined a long long LONG time ago that 3xDD + 2x support + 1x healer was the optimal setup as 4x DD 1xsupport 1x healer is simply too much of a burden on the healer / support and thus forces people to play defensibly.

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It's hardly a trap. When your party is 5/6 people and it's time to fill that sixth spot with damage, it's not the time to be looking for emergency cures, a Dia your healer or 'lazy bard' could throw up, or even a secondary haster.

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False argument. You failed to define the 5/6 nor what the required roles were of the 6th spot, and thus you can dictate a false argument with whatever rules / conclusions you want. That is dishonest.

A RDM/NIN will produce more total damage output then a BRD/WHM, this isn't even up for debate. The first BRD is already singing march x 2, this leaves the 2nd BRD to sing Attack songs and refresh the healer. Dia III is 15% defense down, or 17.6% attack up. At 500 attack every DD would receive the equivalent of 88 attack, at 600 attack they would receive 105.6 and at 700 attack (now) they would receive 123.2 attack. This combined with the 80% melee damage easily surpassed double attack buffs to three DD's. Don't even attempt to argue this, it's already been demonstrated both on paper and in practice. The only jobs that could do similar were COR (buffs + ranged shots) and DNC (haste samba + melee damage + curing). A melee BRD/NIN could technically do similar, there was actually a small following amongst the BRD's to do this because they saw the same opportunity we did.

Anyhow as I've said before, this is all merit parties at 75, which don't exist anymore and thus the above points are moot. If we ~really~ wanted to get technical a RDM now can do something nobody else could, and that's provide a 17.6% attack buff to every DD in the alliance. I do this all the time on abyssal super boss's and tier III / IV VWNMs. This is where I was really hoping SE would go with, provide us with self-buffs that would enable us to lower the targets Def / VIT / Agi / Defense / Magic Defense / Magic Evasion and so forth. In this way we would enable the entire alliance to perform better, while also dealing damage.

Except COR was better because it did more dmg, gave better buffs and raised exp/hr.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

So, yeah, find something else in your unerring fascination with me to nitpick.

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It's not my fault you regularly put forth incorrect claims or misworded statements.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

When your party is 5/6 people and it's time to fill that sixth spot with damage, it's not the time to be looking for emergency cures, a Dia your healer or 'lazy bard' could throw up, or even a secondary haster.

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The implication of this statement is that said hypothetical party already has one BRD. Otherwise, why would said party, assuming they wanted a real merit party, even consider inviting a 'lazy' supporting BRD? They'd instead invite a pulling BRD. If the party already had two BRDs, no sensible party would ever consider adding a 3rd BRD over a 3rd DD or a COR.

You're playing semantic games to backpedal away from an implied misstatement that 'a 2nd supporting BRD is less useful than an additional DD'. It's simply not true, especially at the Nyzul Mamool and MMJSP North camps where the 2nd BRD's support capacities from /WHM were more useful. Unlike Colibri, Mamool were definitely capable of dealing real damage.

And yes, it wasn't uncommon for the 2nd BRD to help pull in exceptional merit parties. Hell, even as a single BRD I intentionally and regularly linked mobs just to give myself an extra 5-10 seconds at camp. On that point, how does double pulling even relate to outside healers in the first place?

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Originally Posted by saevel

This combined with the 80% melee damage easily surpassed double attack buffs to three DD's. Don't even attempt to argue this, it's already been demonstrated both on paper and in practice.

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Sorry, it will be argued. Sure, RDM/NIN may approach 80% of a average DD, but they will never be in the same ballpark as real DDs that are well-geared and well-played.

It's why Hyrist hasn't logged on for two days and counting.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Giving RDM a Weaponskill with 4.0fTP, 30%STR/50%MND mod (Magical WS with INT mod is just all the better), Magical, element/Debuff based on current Enspell. But have it mod with TP.

I.e

100% - - - 200% - - - 300%
4.0 - - - - 4.5 - - - - - - 4.75

Secondly, a Debuff for the WS could Depend on the Element. I.E with "Enfire" it would inflict Plague, With Enwater it would inflict Poison, With EnStone it would inflict Slow, so on and so forth.

(Secondary Idea is optional)

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Disregarding the en-spell association with this weaponskill idea, I think it would just be great if RDM got Sanguine Blade natively. Modifiers are STR MND and a very potent INT modifier.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

It's why Hyrist hasn't logged on for two days and counting.

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Obviously, THAT'S the reason.

It clearly can't have anything to possibly do with a RL schedule.


You know Wish could always organize a time for both parties to meet instead of just waiting there searching for Hyrist all day.

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Originally Posted by saevel

It was determined a long long LONG time ago that 3xDD + 2x support + 1x healer was the optimal setup as 4x DD 1xsupport 1x healer is simply too much of a burden on the healer / support and thus forces people to play defensibly.

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by saevel

False argument. You failed to define the 5/6 nor what the required roles were of the 6th spot, and thus you can dictate a false argument with whatever rules / conclusions you want. That is dishonest.

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by saevel

A RDM/NIN will produce more total damage output then a BRD/WHM, this isn't even up for debate.

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Yes it is.

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Originally Posted by saevel

The first BRD is already singing march x 2, this leaves the 2nd BRD to sing Attack songs and refresh the healer. Dia III is 15% defense down, or 17.6% attack up. At 500 attack every DD would receive the equivalent of 88 attack, at 600 attack they would receive 105.6 and at 700 attack (now) they would receive 123.2 attack. This combined with the 80% melee damage easily surpassed double attack buffs to three DD's. Don't even attempt to argue this, it's already been demonstrated both on paper and in practice.

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No. Very much wrong. The Red Mage is not contributing 15% Defense Down from Dia 3. They are contributing the difference in potency between Dia 2 and Dia 3, which is (15% - 10.35% = ) 4.65% Defense Down. This does NOT equate to anywhere near the benefit of Minuets. You're also still assuming that a Red Mage can keep 80% pace with a heavy DD, which I am highly suspect of. See my parse on a previous page where a Corsair (a significantly stronger DD than RDM) parsed 50% of a WAR and 50% of a DRG in a fully buffed party.

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Originally Posted by saevel

The only jobs that could do similar were COR (buffs + ranged shots) and DNC (haste samba + melee damage + curing). A melee BRD/NIN could technically do similar, there was actually a small following amongst the BRD's to do this because they saw the same opportunity we did.

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Yes. These jobs are incredibly powerful buffers. Corsair can do more damage than Red Mage, while adding unique and powerful buffs and raising EXP/hr. Dancer can stack onto the DD's already high Haste levels and, potentially, cap them (25 + 15 + 20 + 10 + 10 = 80%). Red Mage's 4.65% Defense Down is not touching either of these numbers.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Anyhow as I've said before, this is all merit parties at 75, which don't exist anymore and thus the above points are moot. If we ~really~ wanted to get technical a RDM now can do something nobody else could, and that's provide a 17.6% attack buff to every DD in the alliance. I do this all the time on abyssal super boss's and tier III / IV VWNMs. This is where I was really hoping SE would go with, provide us with self-buffs that would enable us to lower the targets Def / VIT / Agi / Defense / Magic Defense / Magic Evasion and so forth. In this way we would enable the entire alliance to perform better, while also dealing damage.

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This still relies on Red Mage being the only person in the entire Alliance with access to a single Dia spell. If there is even one White Mage, one Bard, one Scholar, or one Black Mage with Rdm or Whm sub, there will be Dia 2 on every monster already. If there isn't? That's a player problem. Red Mage is not the only mage job allowed to cast its enfeebles.

(Nitpick: 4.65% defense down could technically beat 2x minuet given if there already enough defense down on the mob in the first place)

Its not beating what cor buffs could do, or what haste samba would do for the party's overall dmg.

Shits situational

...this just isn't that situation

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Originally Posted by Supersun

(Nitpick: 4.65% defense down could technically beat 2x minuet given if there already enough defense down on the mob in the first place)

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You're inverted. 4.65% defense down would only beat 2x Minuet if the monster had some extremely high Defense value (as in, significantly higer than anything that exists in the entire game, so practically never), or if cRatio became capped either way in which case they would be equal. The upgrade from Dia 2 to Dia 3 will never "beat" Minuets on EXP mobs.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Shits situational

...this just isn't that situation

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What? Are you really saying replace a DNC with 5/5 haste samba merits or COR buffs with a melee rdm? What is situational about that? oh right, NOTHING.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

You're inverted. 4.65% defense down would only beat 2x Minuet if the monster had some extremely high Defense value (as in, significantly higer than anything that exists in the entire game, so practically never), or if cRatio became capped either way in which case they would be equal. The upgrade from Dia 2 to Dia 3 will never "beat" Minuets on EXP mobs.

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That's why I said it was a nitpick

Unless demons in dynamis xarcabard start becoming the new exp hot spot.

I've really never understood why even the toughest monsters in this game have pretty pathetic defenses. I mean we do have the means to hit decent pDifs on mobs that could have up to over 2k defense and this is assuming attack caps at 999
(jury is still technically out on that one unless something new has been found out).

(Whm+Rdm I still believe is a terrible combo. DD, DD, DD, Dnc, Rdm, Brd is where it's at imo)

Soo the counter argument to dia III is putting it on the healer? That is some seriousl lolz and just goes to show that you guys aren't even trying to think of a real situation and are instead just trolling.
Dia II 30MP, 27 with /SCH
Monster dies in 30s = 600 MP per 10 min (540 as /SCH).
Monster dies in 25s = 720 MP per 10 min (648 as /SCH).

You actually wanting to put that MP burden on a job who's already spamming cure / curagas on the three /WAR or Hasso DD's and who's also Hasting three people? The only sensible person to do that is the lazy BRD, although then your cutting out their healing as they don't have enough MP to keep that up.

And BTW, if your crazy enough to try to put it on the healing RDM,
45MP, 41 as /SCH, Dia III
30s per kill = 900MP per 10min, 820 as /SCH,
25s per kill = 1080MP per 10min, 984 as /SCH.

Yeah .....

But honestly this is getting boring. Every argument fronted was debated and defeated three to four years ago, then rehashed every year after that. It's become like religion, people will believe whatever it is they want to believe, then they'll selectively chose which arguments support their belief and disparage any counter-arguments that dispute their chose belief. It's why I for the most part stopped trying to convince people and instead just did it over and over again. Eventually the haters shut up as they had no ground to stand on.

I kept buffs up at 75, as well as dia'd every single mob, suck less, get better gear, or better DDs.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

I kept buffs up at 75, as well as dia'd every single mob, suck less, get better gear, or better DDs.

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Seriously, this. Keeping Dia up is hard? Really? That's the counterargument?

So what if it's using a lot of MP over time? Between Refresh, Ballads, and Evoker's if your party doesn't suck, you aren't exactly hurting on MP (3 + 3 + 3 + 2/tick gear at 75 is 1,832 MP recovered in 8 minutes 20 seconds). Oh yes, and Convert is an 8 minute 20 second ability, not 10 minute.

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It's not my fault you regularly put forth incorrect claims or misworded statements.

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Hey, I'll give you "misworded" in this case, since I was thinking from the perspective I later elaborated and the 2x BRD thing was typically part of the optimum set up back in the day. Indulge me with incorrect claims, though. Apparently I have years of bull on Alla for you to pick from (ya know, obfuscating 'n all), so shouldn't take too long. And since I never claimed to be immune to mistakes, hey, maybe you might teach me something. That's your modus opperandi or someshit, right?

I have a pretty good idea what you'll find, though, and I strongly suspect it's been more of an opinion or even personal experience that's rubbed you the wrong way than any kind of statistical snafu, because I'm fairly sure you actually haven't played with me to garner an opinion there. So yeah, be mad I advocate RDM melee enhancements, that CoP was a poorly designed expansion for numerous reasons, that Empyreans don't just fall into the laps of anyone that logs, that myself and others aren't a fan of your little other-forum circlejerk, that people can share info without being demeaning idjits, that pinning and other solo exploits are bull, and so on. I'll tell you my biggest flaw, right here and right now.

I want FFXI to be better. Disagree with the hows and whys, sure, but that's the fact behind my opinions. Otherwise, I'm pretty curious about this grudge you've been building. Grudge might be a strong word, but I don't think you have a crush on me, either.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Seriously, this. Keeping Dia up is hard? Really? That's the counterargument?

So what if it's using a lot of MP over time? Between Refresh, Ballads, and Evoker's if your party doesn't suck, you aren't exactly hurting on MP (3 + 3 + 3 + 2/tick gear at 75 is 1,832 MP recovered in 8 minutes 20 seconds). Oh yes, and Convert is an 8 minute 20 second ability, not 10 minute.

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Not hard, impossible due to MP constraints. The faster you kill the more expensive it gets. Your spamming Cure IV and keeping haste's up. You can jump up and down all you want and resort to the "your a gimp!!!01010101 orz" argument, but it's been done to death already and your just bull sh1ting.

Pchan already did the math on it and it wasn't impossible. Like heck I remember where it is though. Required full vert merits for Dia 3.