[dev1049] New weapon skills

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Originally Posted by JiltedValkyrie

Talk to the moogle again after you have completed genkai 10.

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You also have to be level 96 I believe.

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Originally Posted by Laxedrane

You also have to be level 96 I believe.

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Level 96. Take the Nomad Moogle 15 merit points to unlock the Merit WS Category.

Each WS then takes 10 merit points to unlock.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Level 96. Take the Nomad Moogle 15 merit points to unlock the Merit WS Category.

Each WS then takes 10 merit points to unlock.

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then you need 90 merits to make them worth using, and you have to make sure to believe in the heart of the cards and the power of friendship when you click your macro, otherwise you might accidentally use a weaponskill that didn't require you to waste all the time those 100 merits needed to do the same thing, but not look as cool.

I was holding out hope for a decent axe WS. Way to crush it SE. 100 merits for crap. I feel insulted by you giving me "busy work". BTW Cloudsplitter blows as well. I've rampaged a million times over and it's just getting old. The only option left is to go for the Guttler..... yeah.. That will happen. lol

Who else believes that all the DD WSs should be equivalent to Tachi: Shoha lol...

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Originally Posted by Saiken253

Who else believes that all the DD WSs should be equivalent to Tachi: Shoha lol...

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every comment SE has ever made about "Balance" just gets laughed at as absolute hypocritical BS after taking one look at tachi shoha

7k no brew in abyssea with a masamune, compared to 6k high spike on Fudo, I think his averages (galka friend of mine) were somewhere around 6k

A non crit hit WS that keeps up with Ukko's and beats Hi like nothing, inside abyssea

ummmmmmmmm

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Originally Posted by Finuve

every comment SE has ever made about "Balance" just gets laughed at as absolute hypocritical BS after taking one look at tachi shoha

7k no brew in abyssea with a masamune, compared to 6k high spike on Fudo, I think his averages (galka friend of mine) were somewhere around 6k

A non crit hit WS that keeps up with Ukko's and beats Hi like nothing, inside abyssea

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[sarcastic]
Everyone know leeching 1m exp in 1 day, is way harder then spend 6 month for dynamis relic or 3 month for empy!!
[/sarcastic]

Now i can see a whole thread of cry baby pop out as soon SE nerf it, oh well.

What kind of empyrean weapon takes 3 weeks, let alone 3 months? A relic can be finished in 3 months assuming you're farming Dynamis and get 150~250 pieces of currency per day. Can be done in less time if you're getting that 250 or more frequently.

The weaponskills are not what make those weapons strong to begin with, for the most part. It's their added effects and other such bonuses tied to them that pull them ahead of the riffraff. Getting a new, powerful weaponskill would only serve to buff relics. Empyreans aren't worth complaining about as they're already incredibly easy to make and not hugely time consuming.

A middle ground, however, would suffice. Make them stronger than the level 65 weaponskills for christ sake.





Sarcasm tags weren't there upon response btw, in case anyone gets confused later.

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Originally Posted by Serj

Please stop pretending you know how this game works. It's extremely clear you don't.

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Please stop trying so hard to sound elite. Outside of abyssea sam has always been the hardest to mess up DD with the easiest to understad WSs, IE throw ACC out the window and stck as much str on more the better no matter the level of the mob you fighting.

And the fact that Sam gets a WS for just merits that you can get in 4 hours thats better then Emp./relic is insulting.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

And the fact that Sam gets a WS for just merits that you can get in 4 hours thats better then Emp./relic is insulting.

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I hate that SE spoonfed all the bandwagon, idiot SAMs again. I so enjoyed not seeing SAMs in Abyssea, now they all over like some insect infestation.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

And the fact that Sam gets a WS for just merits that you can get in 4 hours thats better then Emp./relic is insulting.

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guess u don't know how relic suxed vs emperyan this WS has fixed the balance between the weapons.

This WS boosts relic DMG by ALOT and now it can compete w/ emperyans.
w/ Emperyan the WS only adds to the weapon not to mention SE were nice in making them both STR mods.

either way the WS has made it Mythic > Relic > Emp for SAM which imo is the correct order.

I honestly thought that a job that main purpose is spamming WSing getting a good WS was a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

What kind of empyrean weapon takes 3 weeks, let alone 3 months? A relic can be finished in 3 months assuming you're farming Dynamis and get 150~250 pieces of currency per day. Can be done in less time if you're getting that 250 or more frequently.

The weaponskills are not what make those weapons strong to begin with, for the most part. It's their added effects and other such bonuses tied to them that pull them ahead of the riffraff. Getting a new, powerful weaponskill would only serve to buff relics. Empyreans aren't worth complaining about as they're already incredibly easy to make and not hugely time consuming.

A middle ground, however, would suffice. Make them stronger than the level 65 weaponskills for christ sake.





Sarcasm tags weren't there upon response btw, in case anyone gets confused later.

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Was talking about a WS you can drag your death body AFK'ing leeching 1m exp in 1 day, VS empy, relic, mythic that you actually have to work for, but you right is definitively balanced.

Also lol if you talking about poison on mandau or the aftermath "occasionaly fail to crit hit", and yet i am not even talking about polearm, staff, club etc...

Edit: The 1 day for WS merit, 3 month for Empy and 6 month for Relic, i stated was for casual player. And i was pretty much generous there..

That isn't casual, that's super casual never logs on more than once a month.

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

For Mage WSes

WHM should gain a Job trait that converts hp cured -> tp
BLM SCH should have a better improved Occult Acumen (BLM may as well have it at the same level as SCH)
RDM should get a lower teir version of hp cured -> tp and Occut Acumen.

The above would allow SE to make useful Weapons skills for the mages.

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Everyone always misses out on summoner, i change staff also when macroing BPs. there has to be another way to fix the problems with the tp reset on weapon change, ive gone 5/5 shattersoul for summoner and its terrible, usually only doing 600-800 and i dont think its really worth engaging an enemy for.

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Originally Posted by Clou777

Everyone always misses out on summoner, i change staff also when macroing BPs. there has to be another way to fix the problems with the tp reset on weapon change, ive gone 5/5 shattersoul for summoner and its terrible, usually only doing 600-800 and i dont think its really worth engaging an enemy for.

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Not to be "that guy" but get either a relic staff, empyrean staff, or a Nirvana, or some other staff you don't have to macro out as much.

That said, the thing I think Summoner really needs is for Blood Pacts to skillchain like they do at lower levels. This would help even Summoners who don't necessarily wish to melee, while helping the ones who do.

Where is the nerf to Shoha in this list?

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

guess u don't know how relic suxed vs emperyan this WS has fixed the balance between the weapons.

This WS boosts relic DMG by ALOT and now it can compete w/ emperyans.
w/ Emperyan the WS only adds to the weapon not to mention SE were nice in making them both STR mods.

either way the WS has made it Mythic > Relic > Emp for SAM which imo is the correct order.

I honestly thought that a job that main purpose is spamming WSing getting a good WS was a good thing.

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Huh. So you see relic as just a high dmg weapon, then still the relic WS is trash compared to the a free WS. Better yet getting a TP bouns weapon would be better to "spam" WS with right.

Still humored, my thf has been sitting at 90 since the cap was 90. I have 0/5 in dagger.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/p...xenterator.jpg
Why is it they had to add them as "actual" learned WS? It seems lazy, like they took the easy way out.

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Originally Posted by Darklon

I was holding out hope for a decent axe WS. Way to crush it SE. 100 merits for crap. I feel insulted by you giving me "busy work". BTW Cloudsplitter blows as well. I've rampaged a million times over and it's just getting old. The only option left is to go for the Guttler..... yeah.. That will happen. lol

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What axe WS are you using? Ruinator is a badass WS.

There's a lot of rage still going on, but the WS's don't actually seem that bad. Even with Requiescat, I can break 1k without MND gear. That doesn't make it better than Vorpal Blade with DD atma, but it makes it better if I'm /RDM with survival atma.

Resolution is an excellent Gsword skill and makes PLD DD or Gsword tanking actually possible on some mobs and NMs.

I really disagree with the nerfs all around, even to Ukkos/Smite, and I would prefer not to see Shoha nerfed, there has never really been a "band wagoner" that's superior to a well geared DD, most random band wagoners Shoha's only average between 1-2k with max merits, same with band wagon samurai with Fudo.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Why is it they had to add them as "actual" learned WS? It seems lazy, like they took the easy way out.

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I'm guessing the skill requirement is there so you can't use it if you're gimped on your skill, and simultaneously would prevent being able to use them when synced to low level.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I'm guessing the skill requirement is there so you can't use it if you're gimped on your skill, and simultaneously would prevent being able to use them when synced to low level.

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Dose that mean I can King's Justice @10? >.>

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Dose that mean I can King's Justice @10? >.>

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maybe <.< before the 2 hander update my war was ALL duel wield.. i don't even remember how i got it to 20...

point being i had almost no greataxe skill, and actually got kings justice long before raging rush. i was lvl 75 but.. prolly had the skill of a lvl 30..

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Dose that mean I can King's Justice @10? >.>

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Limiting it by skill had these two affects:
- You can only use it at a certain level
- You can only use it without being gimp at that level

Limiting it by level alone would only achieve the first of the two. I'm not saying they can't do it, and I really don't know why they didn't, but I assumed it was to achieve both those things and not just a level restriction. Maybe in response to the slew of underskilled Abyssea leechers at 99?

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Originally Posted by Alerith

There's a lot of rage still going on, but the WS's don't actually seem that bad. Even with Requiescat, I can break 1k without MND gear. That doesn't make it better than Vorpal Blade with DD atma, but it makes it better if I'm /RDM with survival atma.

Resolution is an excellent Gsword skill and makes PLD DD or Gsword tanking actually possible on some mobs and NMs.

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Depends on the WS. Some are great, some are good, some are WTF and some are just outright bad.

Req is one of the outright bad ones. The -20% attack ruins it on anything T or higher, especially as the three sword jobs (PLD / RDM / BLU) don't have high attack to begin with. It's only saving grace is that it can bypass physical resistance even invincible. So if your fighting some monster that has some crazy 50% PDT you can bust out Req to deal damage vs Vorpal / CDC hitting low.

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Originally Posted by darkhorror

What axe WS are you using? Ruinator is a badass WS.

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It's just Rampage all over again. SE nerfed it from the test server and made it weaker.

Ruin has a higher WSC, Rampage can crit, that's pretty much the only difference between them. Rampage will have more variation due to random crits, Ruin will be more consistent, they'll be be approximately equal.

You only get to max three WS out, why max out a WS that is the same as one you already get. If you don't play any other jobs then sure why not, but otherwise it would be better to spend your merits into more useful WS's.

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Originally Posted by saevel

It's just Rampage all over again. SE nerfed it from the test server and made it weaker.

Ruin has a higher WSC, Rampage can crit, that's pretty much the only difference between them. Rampage will have more variation due to random crits, Ruin will be more consistent, they'll be be approximately equal.

You only get to max three WS out, why max out a WS that is the same as one you already get. If you don't play any other jobs then sure why not, but otherwise it would be better to spend your merits into more useful WS's.

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You must have never used Ruinator 5/5 with a good WS build.

Ruinator has 3.33 times higher WSC, 100% vs 30%. With belt and gorget Ruinator has a higher fTP. Ruinator has an attack bonus. The only thing rampage can do is crit.

Get a WS build with at least 150 str, elemental belt and gorget. Then try it again, or just do the math.

People saying that some are good and some are bad might be right, but ultimately there is a bigger issue then some being terrible.

The main problem was and remains that they put a cap on how many we can merit. Basically, if someone does more then 1~3 jobs, they're shafted. Sure, one WS might great in very select situations, but that means nothing to you if you can't merit it or only put a single merit into it due to the allocation problems.

I'd really perfer SE just uncaps the merits we can put into these things so that the issue would be dealt with, then we wouldn't have as many problems with the utility ones, because meriting them wouldn't hurt your ability to do damage with other classes.

Putting a cap on them is just all wrong.

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Originally Posted by darkhorror

You must have never used Ruinator 5/5 with a good WS build.

Ruinator has 3.33 times higher WSC, 100% vs 30%. With belt and gorget Ruinator has a higher fTP. Ruinator has an attack bonus. The only thing rampage can do is crit.

Get a WS build with at least 150 str, elemental belt and gorget. Then try it again, or just do the math.

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Or you can stop blowing smoke up everyone's arses.

Four hits, 100% STR WSC, fTP transfers across all hits. Absolutely ZERO attack bonus.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Ruinator

Assuming off hand weapon you have 4+1 hits. With gorget / belt you get 6.0 of ftp (+0.2 x 5).

Rampage is 5+1 hits 30% STR WSC and can crit. It's first hit is only 0.5 fTP but all other hits are 1.0. With DW you have 6 hits for 5.5 fTP. You'd be using the rancor gorget over anything else, and the Attack +15 / Acc +15 DA +1% on the waist. So 6.0 vs 5.5 fTP for 9% more fTP, up to two DA's can proc to further reduce the fTP difference. Now here's the kicker, Rampage can crit and your going to get 2~3 crits on average. Those crits are what bring Rampage's average damage inline with Ruinators, especially on T+ targets when your not capping ratio and level correction is being tossed in.

Ruinator is just a more consistent Rampage. And when you have limited choices, spending one for a side-grade isn't very wise unless you have no other options.

Forgot alpha, it's 85% STR mod on Ruinator. Pretty sure SE stated Ruinator's attack bonus was being reduced for 'balance'.

Found it:

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hey everyone, we’ve been looking over your feedback and wanted to give more details in the thought process behind our changes and some of the weapon skills themselves.
　　
Axe Weapon Skill “Ruinator”
We will be lowering the attack modifier value and changing it so it’s half of the current value. The amount of damage dealt to high level enemies (those that have high defense) will be reduced, however, being able to deal damage easier than other axe weapon skills will remain unchanged.

We are making it so that the amount of damage will be around the same as Rampage if you have full accuracy and get 2-3 criticals. (This is when both of them are executed at 100 TP. There is of course more damage that can be dealt depending on gear and food.)

We are making adjustments so that you can pick Ruinator if you want to deal more consistent damage, or Rampage if you want to try and deal large amounts of damage.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Or you can stop blowing smoke up everyone's arses.

Four hits, 100% STR WSC, fTP transfers across all hits. Absolutely ZERO attack bonus.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Ruinator

Assuming off hand weapon you have 4+1 hits. With gorget / belt you get 6.0 of ftp (+0.2 x 5).

Rampage is 5+1 hits 30% STR WSC and can crit. It's first hit is only 0.5 fTP but all other hits are 1.0. With DW you have 6 hits for 5.5 fTP. You'd be using the rancor gorget over anything else, and the Attack +15 / Acc +15 DA +1% on the waist. So 6.0 vs 5.5 fTP for 9% more fTP, up to two DA's can proc to further reduce the fTP difference. Now here's the kicker, Rampage can crit and your going to get 2~3 crits on average. Those crits are what bring Rampage's average damage inline with Ruinators, especially on T+ targets when your not capping ration and level correction is being tossed in.

Ruinator is just a more consistent Rampage. And when you have limited choices, spending one for a side-grade isn't very wise unless you have no other options.

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The math says they're equal, but in practice it's a shitton easier to gear for ruinator to get the same results, so it's not surprising most people that are getting ruinator are seeing it put out numbers that trump rampage on average. If the godmodeukkowars were the ones playing with ruinator vs rampage, their available gear pool would allow them to see much higher rampage damage in general, such that ruinator and rampage would be a wash. Ruinator is basically a slightly weakened, multihit Tachi: Gekko, for axes.

That, and they apparently didn't nerf ruinator nearly as much as we thought they did, because it was a LOT stronger than most initially realized.

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Originally Posted by Theytak

The math says they're equal, but in practice it's a shitton easier to gear for ruinator to get the same results, so it's not surprising most people that are getting ruinator are seeing it put out numbers that trump rampage on average. If the godmodeukkowars were the ones playing with ruinator vs rampage, their available gear pool would allow them to see much higher rampage damage in general, such that ruinator and rampage would be a wash. Ruinator is basically a slightly weakened, multihit Tachi: Gekko, for axes.

That, and they apparently didn't nerf ruinator nearly as much as we thought they did, because it was a LOT stronger than most initially realized.

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I would love to see that math that puts rampage equal to Ruinator and in what situations. The tests and calculations I have done show that ruinator is much better in nearly all situations.

Also my tests show that it has at least a 10% attack bonus, my guess closer to 25%. Not sure how much yet. Been testing vs DC wardon beetles. On BST with 129 str, 74 dmg main hand 64 damage off hand, 687 attack and 8% damage boost from killer effect, and no gorget or belt. did about 1300-1600 damage with normal tp return.

Then changed to MNK, 137 str, 127 dex, 80 damage H2H base without fstr, 730 attack. Shijin does about 1100-1500 dmg on normal tp return. Shijin is supposed to have about a 10% attack bonus. Lots of variables, but IF fstr is capped on both axe and H2H they will both have 91 dmg on mainhand, and axe will have 81 on offhand, and axe is most likely still far from cap. When counting attack bonus you will end up with about 800 attack on shijin vs 687 on axe. Shijin also has slight ftp bonus over axe ws.

Yet with all of that which should put shijin way ahead of Ruinator, once you take into account the 8% damage boost on bst they do similar damage with those setups.

Edit: still needs more testing, didn't do all that many WS's but that's what I got there. and once I did put WS gear on BST and used ruinator did 2k-2.5k damage with normal tp return. Where the highest rampage I saw was 1.5k.

Shijin's Attack bonus is 5%.

I'm pretty sure all of this stuff has been tested and posted somewhere in this forum.

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Originally Posted by darkhorror

Also my tests show that it has at least a 10% attack bonus, my guess closer to 25%. Not sure how much yet. Been testing vs DC wardon beetles. On BST with 129 str, 74 dmg main hand 64 damage off hand, 687 attack and 8% damage boost from killer effect, and no gorget or belt. did about 1300-1600 damage with normal tp return.

Then changed to MNK, 137 str, 127 dex, 80 damage H2H base without fstr, 730 attack. Shijin does about 1100-1500 dmg on normal tp return. Shijin is supposed to have about a 10% attack bonus. Lots of variables, but IF fstr is capped on both axe and H2H they will both have 91 dmg on mainhand, and axe will have 81 on offhand, and axe is most likely still far from cap. When counting attack bonus you will end up with about 800 attack on shijin vs 687 on axe. Shijin also has slight ftp bonus over axe ws.

Yet with all of that which should put shijin way ahead of Ruinator, once you take into account the 8% damage boost on bst they do similar damage with those setups.

Edit: still needs more testing, didn't do all that many WS's but that's what I got there. and once I did put WS gear on BST and used ruinator did 2k-2.5k damage with normal tp return. Where the highest rampage I saw was 1.5k.

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And your still blowing smoke up everyone's arse's.

As much as I loath BG, their very good at testing numbers and figuring potentials out. Ruin's already been looked at and it has NO attack bonus. Your just talking out your fifth point of contact. It's just four hits at 100% STR, that's it. Rampage is 4.5 hits at 30% STR that can crit, those criticals will nearly double the damage on those hits.

Your comparing a high STR Ruinator vs a non-critical Rampage on low defense EM targets and calling it a day.

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Originally Posted by Theytak

The math says they're equal, but in practice it's a shitton easier to gear for ruinator to get the same results, so it's not surprising most people that are getting ruinator are seeing it put out numbers that trump rampage on average. If the godmodeukkowars were the ones playing with ruinator vs rampage, their available gear pool would allow them to see much higher rampage damage in general, such that ruinator and rampage would be a wash. Ruinator is basically a slightly weakened, multihit Tachi: Gekko, for axes.

That, and they apparently didn't nerf ruinator nearly as much as we thought they did, because it was a LOT stronger than most initially realized.

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Well Gekko has an attack bonus which usually auto-caps ratio and being one hit has 95% acc on that first hit. Ruin has neither the attack bonus nor the super-acc of being a one hit WS. Ruin would only be better if your fighting weak mobs without good gear swaps. Which just described most of the games population.

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Originally Posted by darkhorror

I would love to see that math that puts rampage equal to Ruinator and in what situations. The tests and calculations I have done show that ruinator is much better in nearly all situations.

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Assuming both being used while dual wielding;
99 war/nin, galka (because that's what I am and have easiest access to stats for); 97 base STR
99 bst/nin, galka; 89 base STR
Assuming main hand is Astolfo (99 STR trial axe), offhand, for the sake of ease of calculation, will be the same (99 str trial astolfo)
so main and offhand are both:
Dmg 74 Str+11 (delay and atk aren't relevant to the numbers because capped pDIF is assumed, fSTR is also assumed to be capped)

For the war,
Rampage set: +75 str, matching belt and gorget, crit damage +18%, ~25% double attack
Ruinator set: +90 str, matching belt and gorget, ~25% double attack
For the bst,
Rampage set: +75 str, matching belt and gorget, ~10% double attack
Ruinator set: +90 str, matching belt and gorget, ~10% double attack

Rampage: 6 hit ws, 30% STR mod, total fTP: 5.694 (gorgets don't add exactly 0.1 fTP, they add 0.097), Critical hit ws
Ruinator: 5 hit ws, 100% STR mod, total fTP: 5.485, acc varies ws

so WD = 75, fSTR = 16 (going to shorthand this and add it now, 91 damage before WSC), fTP = 2.05 (max randomized pDIF for 1h weapons)

War Ruinator:
(91 + floor((97+90)*0.85)) * 6.582 * 2.05 (fTP is not a typo, 25% DA means an extra hit will be common, though I can't remember whether the whole "fTP spreads to all hits also includes double/triple attack procs. For the sake of the argument, I'll assume it does) = Best Case Scenario (outside of abs max str): Ruinator damage = 3359 (one double attack proc)
Bst Ruinator:
(91 + floor((97+90)*0.85)) * 5.485 * 2.05 = Best Case Scenario (outside of abs max str): Ruinator damage = 2799

War Rampage:
(91 + floor(floor((97+75) * 0.3) * 0.85)) * (1*x + 0.694) * (pDIF) (1*x = number of hits, such that I can easily calculate for a given number of non/critical hits)
No crits: 1838 damage (1 double attack proc)
3/7 crits: ~2536 damage (1 double attack proc, damage will dip depending on which three hits crit)
All crits: ~3333 damage (1 double attack proc)
Bst Rampage:
(91 + floor(floor(89+75) * 0.3) * 0.85)) * (1*x + 0.694) * (pDIF)
No crits: 1564 damage
3/6 crits: ~2280 damage (damage will dip depending on which three hits crit)
All crits: ~2403 damage

Basically, the reason bsts are all reporting awesome returns compared to rampage is that they lack the large natural increase in critical hit damage that war has. I'm a war, not a bst, so when I say the math says they're even, I'm thinking about it from a warrior's perspective, that's probably why you didn't see what I saw.

Regardless, this is a damage potential scenario, not damage in practice, because this doesn't account for variability in randomized pDIF values, accuracy levels, etc. As far as damage potential is concerned, they're effectively the same, but it is interesting that SE said they wanted rampage to be the stronger ws in terms of higher numbers, and ruinator be more consistent, when realistically, ruinator is more on par with high end rampages than average rampages. That, and ruinator is still a lot easier to gear for, making it a far more forgiving ws in terms of lower gear quality players using it.

Basically, if you're a warrior, the worse your gear, the stronger ruinator will be compared to rampage; the better your gear, the more even they get. If you're a bst, ruinator pretty much wins regardless.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Well Gekko has an attack bonus which usually auto-caps ratio and being one hit has 95% acc on that first hit. Ruin has neither the attack bonus nor the super-acc of being a one hit WS. Ruin would only be better if your fighting weak mobs without good gear swaps. Which just described most of the games population.

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That was my point in using gekko as a reference example.