More Paladin-centered shields needed to close the gap with Aegis & Ochain

Some DT gear is okay, I think, just that there's too much now. I agree that defense being the primary/singular modifier of PDT would have been welcome design. Still, gems like Creed Cuirass +2, Defending Ring, these are very nice pieces and welcome in the game.

Even Hauteclaire, and perhaps, Burtgang. Shadow Mantle's unique aspects are really nice as well.

The shields aren't the problem though. They're paladin's only counter TO the problem.

This shouldn't be exclusive to paladin either. Every tank deserves something that puts it above the cut vs dps. You'd figure that's obvious, but saying it just in case.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Some DT gear is okay, I think, just that there's too much now. I agree that defense being the primary/singular modifier of PDT would have been welcome design. Still, gems like Creed Cuirass +2, Defending Ring, these are very nice pieces and welcome in the game.

Even Hauteclaire, and perhaps, Burtgang. Shadow Mantle's unique aspects are really nice as well.

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I feared you'd try to defend the existence of pieces like D. Ring, but stuff that ignores the limitations placed on tank design (this includes stuff that takes you "over cap") cause trouble unless we were to take an approach similar to real tiered progression.

By this I mean making Defending Ring a piece of tank gear for a specific batch of content (lv75 content, as that is where it comes from), then made obsolete through stat/item level differences; following this, it would be no different from gear that adds unique mechanics (along the lines of Shadowmourne or Val'anyr in WoW) that is eventually phased out due to how progression works. Changing it from -DT to something like an on-use item that increases your defense rating by X amount for 60 seconds every 30 minutes would also work without heavily messing with whatever intended mitigation you want to give tanks.

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The shields aren't the problem though. They're paladin's only counter TO the problem.

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Let me put it another way: the current shield system is garbage given that Aegis and Ochain bypass most of the downsides of the shield system, which combined with block rates and the nonsense with shield skill only reinforces Aegis/Ochain-onry mentalities. This also goes back to the post made earlier about Tower Shields being a total waste.

Thing is, if you change the shield system to address this (having block rate being entirely determined by a stat like AGI or STR instead of shield size, block thresholds changed to be determined by shield skill, adjusting defense gained from shields to correspond to their size so that the shield passively contributes to mitigation), you'll most definitely also have to adjust Ochain and Aegis, as they would no longer have the superior block rate to make them stand out.

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Every tank deserves something that puts it above the cut vs dps. You'd figure that's obvious, but saying it just in case.

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Agreed. Though you first need to decide who should get adjusted into the role of tank.

Ignore the bit about D.ring. I misread the first time and thought you were saying Dring is obselete. I think you're saying it should have been made obsolete?

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I was trying to say that certain pieces being the exception, rather than the rule, is fine.

We had DT gear at 75, of course. It was just unneeded in most situations and was certainly a lot harder to assemble a set.

I wasn't aware Defending ring was made obselete now. That's a lot of hard dt% on a slot that's not incredibly strong. Not that it matters, but a tank isn't giving up hp, defense, or too much in the way of offensive stats to equip Dring. I don't have one yet, though it's my main focus right now.

Although I think it would benefit, XI doesn't operate on item levels. That's why okotes and PCC were common at 75 and you still see PCCs at 99 on some players. Higher level is usually better, but it's not always, especially when you get down to macros.

Actually, it's our ability to macro that makes a lot of pieces matter. If we couldn't swap in gearsets mid-combat (as you can't in most mmos), our gearsets gearset would look a lot different.

Aegis would need no adjustment, it would get swept along and be this mdt absurdity.

Still, all I mean is that Paladin's place isn't exactly solid right now. Most of us, whether we're in steadfast or ochain, know that as soon as the group doesn't need us, we're gone. Depending on your task, not needing a tank frees up 1-2 slots for more zerg.

Aegis is probably gamebreaking. It goes too far past the MDT cap, or perhaps the hard-mdt cap is just two high. Either way you want to look at it.

I just don't think that Ochain is.

As for who should tank, I'd say PLD, NIN, and RUN, and I begrudgingly add RUN. XI didn't really need another tank right now when they can't manage the two they've got and both stop getting invites when they're not needed.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

All you're doing with this is fixing the discrepancy between non-Aegis PLDs and Aegis PLDs

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Which was exactely the purpose why this thread was opened in the first place, wasn't it?
Also, it's a realistic thing that could happen.

As for the rest we both know it's just pure utopia and they're not gonna go that far into changing the game after 11 years.

Dreamin is fun but they won't be changing combat. Neither can they really nerf Aegis and Ochain for an outcry like RME being dated.

As for treating the same as all other RME were treated, obsoleting it.. Aegis can't be obsoleted. It's too good. It's difficult to imagine what would beat Ochain.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Neither can they really nerf Aegis and Ochain for an outcry like RME being dated.
Aegis can't be obsoleted. It's too good. It's difficult to imagine what would beat Ochain.

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Their only choice to balance the other two tank jobs is to introduce respective items for them.

For NIN, they need to add a katana (or a throwing disc/returning shuriken) that gives the ballpark of evasion +200 (Probably needs to me even more than that, enemy NMs have ridiculous amounts of accuracy) and lets them break the evasion cap into 90-95% dodge rate. Possibly also adds some kind of bonus to Utsusemi (Absorb regularly unabsorbed AoEs probably), also makes Migawari less restrictive in some way (Massive recast reduction/increased duration is pretty much all it needs).

For RUN, they need to add a GSD that gives a permanent Liement effect and increases their parry rate by like 50%. Also makes swordplay last longer and adds a bunch of effects to it (I vote for JA Haste and En-spell damage+++).

Drastic? Yes, yet they will still be weaker tanks than PLDs. That's how broken Aegischain is.

Well technically there's another option- scrap the idea of RUNs or NINs ever tanking because PLDs are fucking invincible and just increase RUN and NIN offensive capabilities so they can DPS with the best of them.

Option Delta: Leave things as they are and piss off the playerbase. (This is their usual solution)

Fair ideas.

They've just never mad an effort to balance tanks. PLD/NIN was an atrocity (a very powerful one^^) but pld/nin was a player counter to an SE problem: PLDs were ineffective tanks, at the time, because they took a hit like a little girl.

With tank balance, SE faces the problem they've always had with their own combat design. It's infinitely better to dodge a hit than to take it. Healers don't lose mp, mop gets a little less tp, and that hit that missed didn't do the wild damage it might have done.

If NIN can evade enough again to be relevant, NIN would replace PLD in some cases, until neither are needed.

Ninja needs to be able to evade enough, even in DT gear, that they can expect an enemy to miss.

It sucks but it's no different than all the DD that don't come on their favorite jobs because the group wants war, sams, drks, and monks.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Fair ideas.

They've just never mad an effort to balance tanks. PLD/NIN was an atrocity (a very powerful one^^) but pld/nin was a player counter to an SE problem: PLDs were ineffective tanks, at the time, because they took a hit like a little girl.

With tank balance, SE faces the problem they've always had with their own combat design. It's infinitely better to dodge a hit than to take it. Healers don't lose mp, mop gets a little less tp, and that hit that missed didn't do the wild damage it might have done.

If NIN can evade enough again to be relevant, NIN would replace PLD in some cases, until neither are needed.

Ninja needs to be able to evade enough, even in DT gear, that they can expect an enemy to miss.

It sucks but it's no different than all the DD that don't come on their favorite jobs because the group wants war, sams, drks, and monks.

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This basically points out the grand problem with combat in the first place. When Aby came out, Nin was the over powered tank that could do no wrong. That is, until Mnk, War and Drk got their -dt% gear to tank anything you wanted with a pocket/backup Whm...

At the moment, Pld is the flavor of the season and will probably go out of style down the road. In fact, more fracture groups are using only one, or in some cases, none at all.

As for the shield gap, there will be no easy way to fix this. Even if there was a proper way to approach this issue, it would take a good dev cycle to come up with a worth while approach. But I truly believe the shields are balanced as they are now. For the work and effort taken to gain such an item, much like the relics of old, you get out what you put in. Why would this be any different? There might be a noticeable gap, but that gap has always been there. The sole reason this comes up now is in part with delve NMs actually having a chance to hit players now. And who better to put in front of these nasty baddies, a solid Aegis or Ochain Pld.

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When Aby came out, Nin was the over powered tank that could do no wrong. That is, until Mnk, War and Drk got their -dt% gear to tank anything you wanted with a pocket/backup Whm...

At the moment, Pld is the flavor of the season and will probably go out of style down the road.

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You need to look at what the stats actually say rather than what players favor using if you want to determine what jobs are "overpowered". NIN wasn't overpowered unless you also count THF, DNC, WAR, MNK, and numerous other jobs that had ridiculous inflated numbers in Abyssea. The only reason its use was so prevalent was because it was one of the most convenient jobs to use, being able to cover a large variety of red procs (amongst them some unique to NIN) to obtain KIs, offering a selection of yellow procs and standing close to the other top-end of DPS, so basically, it allowed you to play inside Abyssea longer without needing to warp back to town and swap jobs. When it came down to it it wasn't actually much stronger than the other jobs that got Abyssea's power boost. It'd be similar to saying DRG is currently overpowered because you almost require Angon to defeat certain bosses.

PLD's damage-taking ability IS overpowered- at least in comparison to the other "tanking" jobs. I don't want to say they're the best tanks because tanking in general is broken in the game, but if they ever fixed enmity and made tanking relevant there would be 0 reason to ever use a NIN or RUN over a PLD, because neither job comes close to the amount of damage mitigation that PLD currently has.

Interestingly, Abyssea actually holds the key to how they could balance a few of the jobs- the inflated critical rate and being able to evade more in TP gear is what massively helped out one-hander jobs. If they could take that and apply it in a less extreme fashion outside Abyssea it could probably help.

Nah, Ninja was overpowered in abyssea. It's fine to admit that.

I don't need to go into detail but being able to cover almost all of the procs, especially once ark scythe came out, and cap subtle blow, and fast attack speed.. taking little damage. Ninja was overpowered.

We were all overpowered in abyssea, but ninja got a lot of love. Monk was pretty overpowered too. "You tank this, by punching things. The healers will worry about everything else.".

Thief and Dancer needed to sub warrior to proc like anything near a nin and that was a hindrance to their solo and lowman efforts.

I don't think pld's damage taking potential is overpowered. I think the other tanks are underpowered. I'm not splitting hairs. A pld's shield is their primary mitigation above DD, and there are only 2 worth note. Steadfast, Seignuer, and Koenig before that, are merely the best of a bad situation. A proper DD will throw on DT gear as needed, so the shield is largely what seperates how hard I get hit for and how hard he does.