Guess I was reading the OP different from you. If all of his friends also wanted to rush to the end, I can see where the annoyance is coming from. I saw it as them wanting to take it as it came, while he wanted to race ahead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fukushima_Radiation
To give a brief view of my play history. I started about 6 months before WotG released. Between then and the release of abbysea, I did the nation missions and Zilart. After the level increase to 80, I completed CoP. While everybody was busy with abbysea, I was knocking out ToAU and WotG. I was always an expansion or 2 behind which is why I have that mindset when it comes to new players.Quote:
You must have been obsessed with WotG's journey, then, because it took 3 years to finish, and the multiple hours of content was worth the wait? Your second sentence makes no sense. New players cannot experience content as you do, because (once again): 1) the population is not the same as before, 2) you have more resources and connections to do what you want to do, 3) the gear you have is most likely better and makes soloing old content much easier, 4) you've seen SoA content already (so of course you're not in any hurry), 5) you understand the systems in place already and don't have to do a fraction of the research to get to your goal, and 6) you have already cleared the roadblocks and are not excluded from content you want to access. Those are just off the top of my head, but there are plenty more reasons.
Getting the main point of a post, based on the last 7 pages, completely changes based on where somebody is coming from. For me, its not a "I suffered through it, so you should too", but more of "I didn't feel the need to rush the content, why do you"Quote:
I apologize for all the bold-faced words, but I've come to realize that certain people have trouble with deduction and getting the main point of a post and I'm trying to help them out.
I think I'm finished; a new player's final thoughts
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02-07-2014, 08:27 PMXantavia
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02-07-2014, 08:41 PMCrevoxNone of my friends wanted to do those missions at all. They want to be able to do the content everyone else is doing just as much as I do, or get cool gear for their character/power up/fight tough bosses. However, none of that is possible until they finish all those missions: which is seen as nothing more than a large chore. I was simply the only one of us that was willing to endure it (and after all this time, I'm still not even done).Quote:
Guess I was reading the OP different from you. If all of his friends also wanted to rush to the end, I can see where the annoyance is coming from. I saw it as them wanting to take it as it came, while he wanted to race ahead.
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02-07-2014, 09:01 PMAfaniaI doubt it's "dev listens to player's opinion only" in EVE online's case, but we view things from different angle, and you're probably not wrong. I used to work in MMORPG industry, and tend to view everything from "dev's POV", marketing, resource, budget, market trend, target audience, each title's lifecycle, and how to sell fucking cash shop shiny etc. I find most players I encounter in gaming community tend to have "if dev can listen they'll make money" or "the game can make money if it's good" sort of POV, but I won't(can't) view the entire industry from that perspective. It's just too generalize and vague. From dev's POV, no amount of quality update can save a wow clone theme park mainstream market, the best way is to use the resource on next project and release next title faster. Unless the title has a niche market, such as EVE online.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bukota
I'm not saying you're wrong at all. It's just different POV, and it's not relevant to the topic to discuss why another title gets sub indrease/decrease. I'd probably write a 10 page essay trying to figure out why a game gets X amount of sub, and why sub increase/decrease at one point of time after spending months doing research about a title from an objective POV, while players would present their opinions about why sub increase/decrease from their subjective POV. But in the end, there won't be any real answer to answer the question, sub number change just happens. And every player, whether they're happy or unhappy about the game, would probably continue to argue why sub number change based on their own opinion and love/hate about the update anyways.
Oh and btw, I admit that I don't view FFXI entirely from dev's POV, I've played this game for way too long, so more thanhalf of the opinion are speaking from player's perspective, because FFXI player is what I am, just like how you speak from player's perspective too. That doesn't mean I think it's a right thing to listen to every player complain.
Oh I agree that they have to find a happy medium, but some suggestions on the forum is totally leaning toward one side. I've been trying to pull it back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camiie
Example1: Mythic takes too long, it's terrible and boring blah blah. Cut the requirement by 2/3, 10k alex only!
Then I gave several suggestions, from making alex drop from current content(so it's no longer boring), and not accepted.
Mythic SHOULD take forever, because it's a long term goal. How to make it less painful to obtain in such long journey toward getting one can be changed steamlined, but killing the long term goal doesn't help.
Example2: Looking for wiki is terrible, give us pop-up window and ! on the map!
My suggestion: Place the tutorial NPC near the new player starting area, edit the dialogue so they provide more hint about where to go next. Instead of pop-up window or ! on the map hand-holding everything. For example, the NPC can add info such as "seek the galka near the castle gate for more info", then players can just go to the castle gate and talk to the galka, instead of following that damn ! on the map.
All my suggestions solved complainer's suffering AND still able to maintain FFXI's own appeal. But complainers are still not happy until FFXI is not FFXI anymore. What else do you want me to say besides "go play wow?"
Actually, there is a way to make CoP similar experience as it was in 2004. Just that it requires a bit of resource to make. So the dev chose the easiest(and the worst) path, by making everything soloable, on the same time boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camiie
I agree that it's not possible for every player to experience exactly the same playing experience....heck just who you play with or what your LS is can affect your experience completely. That doesn't mean I'll agree dump down everything is all end the best solution. -
02-07-2014, 09:21 PMLitheraSo your friends were dicks and didn't or wouldn't have helped you out on CoP if you were not friends. Nice friends you had there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crevox
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02-07-2014, 09:23 PMZiyyigo-Tipyigo"Ohai, Mr. Castle Galka! I'm looking for a very particular rock in a two zone-wide desert full of rocks. I called up Miss Cleo and she says I need to find this rock if I ever hope to get some shiny level 119 gear. Any idea where I can find this rock?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
"TCELES B HSUP"
"Yeah... Thanks for nothing, Mr. Castle Galka!" -
02-07-2014, 09:25 PMCrevoxThey have not completed CoP. They simply do not want to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithera
There is no "help" when it comes to CoP unless you're doing one of the like 2 missions that require two people. It is a long, arduous, painful journey of auto-run (the R button) and warping from place to place. Having more than one person would only make it take longer; the best anyone can do for you is talk to you while you do it so it's not as boring. -
02-07-2014, 10:13 PMAfaniaI NEVER argue that looking at wiki every 2~3 min is very immersive, I only said ! and pop-up window is not immersive. Stop assuming I'm defending for everything and put words in my mouth just because I disagree with pop-up window and !.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
YES, looking at wiki every 2~3 min isn't immersive, pop-up window and ! isn't immersive either. The best way is to put the info in dialogue, not to solve the lack of immersion issue by reproducing the same issue.
That doesn't mean every complain is legit complain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
Have you tried ARR? If not go try it. If you've tried and still dislike ARR, and wanted FFXI to be perfect game in your mind, then you will face players like me who would disagree with you. You don't want middle ground, the FFXI you want is way too different from what it originally was.
I don't know your friend, but I'm going to guess that the real reason why he wouldn't come back, is because FFXI no longer interest him/make him excited, not because he has no time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
Once a friend told me, "if you really want to do something, you will find time for it no matter how busy you are"
I'll tell you 3 real stories to prove my point.
1. I've been wanting to return to SWTOR to try new update/expansion, but I couldn't find the time for it. I'd need to install the game, download the patch, do tons of work and research for it. I work 9hr a day, 6 days a week, 4 hr spent on commute everyday, currently playing FFXI/GW2/skyrim. So in the end I didn't download SWTOR. Just installing and patching the game made me tired.
A few days ago I got a TESO beta key, rolling on the floor screaming happily. 1 min after I got the key I already finished account setup and start downloading it.
So I couldn't find time to download/patch SWTOR but I immediately find time to download/setup account/patch TESO. Lack of time is just an excuse, TESO simply excited me more than SWTOR that I'm willing to invest time to play it.
2. I got a friend Mr.A who I play with for years, and originally wanted to start Mythic with me, wanting a Mythic forever. Got a job and quit. I asked if he wants to come back, he replied "I only have 2hr a day to play, I don't have friends/LS in XI anymore that I can't do anything, but I'll go back sometime in the future". I invited him to my LS and offered to play with him but he refused.
However, after XIV launch he plays ARR all day, even at work. Made progress 10x faster than me and had multiple relic a few weeks after launch, and coil static etc.
He can make friends in XIV, somehow magically popped more than 2hr a day AND play ARR at work, but he couldn't do that to FFXI. It's obvious which game he likes to play more.
3. I also have plenty of friends quit at 75 era due to " the lack of time", been trying to lure them back to XI by telling how easy the game is and how it no longer require as much time as 75 era, doesn't work. The game simply isn't exciting to them. Streamlined design can't solve this issue completely, don't blame everything on the lack of accessability.
You think your friends are not coming back, because the game is daunting and full of stuff to do. But it may be the other way around. You should have an epic goal first, so you're willing to work for that epic goal, not the other way around. You don't remove all the obstacle on the path first, then find your goal on the path. You won't even walk on that path to begin with
I mean, sure, dev can delete all the "work" and quest requirement and let every player instantly catch up. Hand out free lv 99 characters, hand out IL119 gears in every slot, no more KI farming, no more LB quests, no more goobie quests. Everyone can just log on, instantly get access to delve rdy character, beat 3 delve zones in 3 days~1 week, quit again.
IMO, even spending 3 days to play a game like this is a waste of time. I mean really? Get rid of LB? Get rid of gobbie bag? Get rid of quests and missions so I can log on and do AA/delve battle instantly? Is this RPG or online action game? I used to play unhealthy amount of FFXI, because the goals in FFXI excited me, not because the road toward the goal has no obsticles.
Your friend isn't coming back, maybe because the he found the game no longer exciting to him. Maybe he found something else more exciting that worth his time investment and sacrifice. Maybe his time with FFXI is just done. Terrible quality of life isn't what's stopping him, but it's more about the lack of force pushing him. I used to play FFXI 5~8hr a day, everyday, because I have exciting goals to work on. Now I found myself complete nearly every goal I had, no longer interested in anymore in game goal, and I avg 2hr a week or less now. I wish the game can give more exciting goals, that's not just an old BC with difficulty setting.
I don't know your friend, but your friend may be in the same situation as me, handing him everything isn't going to get him back, maybe it'll get him back for 3 days. -
02-07-2014, 10:19 PMAfaniaOh noes, TCELES B HSUP for players that can't read anything but ! on the map maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
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02-07-2014, 10:43 PMDemonjustin30,000 items, 304 item slots(which I have an entire character dedicated to as it stand currently) is excessive as can possibly be. As for it being a long term goal, you constantly make it sound as though it is not a long term goal even with this change. If the 3 Kings, 4 Chariots, 100 Assaults, all ToAU Missions, 150,000 Tokens, 100,000 Ichor, and Odin weren't around, and people asked for the 30,000 Alexandrite to be cut into half or a 3rd, ok, maybe you have a point, it's no longer long term by compared, but that is a ton of things required, still far longer than either of the other two weapons. To say that cutting the Alexandrite down would stop it from being a long term goal begs the question, what in the world is a long term goal in a game!? Obviously you and I have vastly different concepts of what long term is, so without actually establishing that line it is really impossible to agree with one another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
So, again, asking a Galka at a gate about things that involve the country every single time something happens so that he can help you out with hints doesn't break the immersive feeling, since I guess some NPCs are allowed to know all and yet say little, but !s, Markers, or Dynamic Quest Logs are immersion breaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Sorry to say but your solution also fails in the respect that while I do think a great deal of players would not mind going to NPCs for Markers telling them where to go for a quest, I doubt hardly anyone would use a NPC who gives you nothing more than hints which may or may not help, and could be just as much out of the way as the Marker NPC idea I had which I put second in my list of the best 3 ways I feel the questing situation could be addressed. The exact reason that method is second is primarily because of the fact it gives no details on the story or anything like that, rather only a location, but the next best reason for it is the exact reason I say that your solution will not work well, people have to go out of their way to go to it just like with a wiki, the only difference is that what I propose is that it give people the information, rather than a vague hint that might, or might not, help them out.
As I said before in this thread, saying that people aren't happy till FFXI isn't FFXI anymore is a poor argument since everyone has their own opinion as what makes this game unique enough that it was chosen as their game of choice rather than others of the same genre. I have very different appreciations in this game than you do for instance, I do not find the thing making FFXI special as being the long term, multi-month goals, I find FFXI special because of the friends I have made, its combat/gameplay, and its Final Fantasy aspects that I feel are fitting with the rest of the games, which collectively are my favorite game series there is. Changing the two things you said above would not make FFXI into something else, surely not WoW, to me it would be a great combo of the two, something I can play with the gameplay, friends, and world of FFXI, but at the same time a game that is more accessible within the game itself and that gives more realistic goals and decreases the amount of time that is truly wasted playing a game by making you do something you do not even enjoy.Quote:
All my suggestions solved complainer's suffering AND still able to maintain FFXI's own appeal. But complainers are still not happy until FFXI is not FFXI anymore. What else do you want me to say besides "go play wow?"
Your solutions did not solve things, what is asked for does not change the game in such a way it removes from FFXI what makes it what it is, at least, not to me, but as I said before, stating that it would make FFXI not FFXI is something that depends on each person, everyone has their own view of the game. Your viewpoint seems to show that this would change the game into something else, mine shows that it would make it not only better, but exactly what I want from a MMO, so please, stop making that argument, if you're going to say something along those lines be more specific with it, because it won't 'make FFXI not FFXI anymore', not to everyone at least. -
02-07-2014, 11:32 PMDemonjustinI am not putting words in your mouth, I am pointing out that by saying that they should not add these things, when the result of not adding them is that people will only continue to look things up on Wiki instead, is breaking the immersion of the game all the same. If people wouldn't use a Wiki, they won't use these, if they would use a Wiki, they will use these so long as they know they exist, which is why it is simply an in-game alternative to Wiki in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
If you are really going to argue that adding these things breaks immersion for players then your argument holds no ground because by saying that you are implying that if they did not make the changes, it would be more immersive to people. By implying this you must look at the actions people take now, while it is not implemented, and judge based on that if the game is, in fact, more immersive. This is why I bring up Wiki every time, because almost everyone in this game with access to it, uses it, and if you discount the fact that it too breaks immersion then your argument isn't presenting all of the facts really.
I would be perfectly fine with every mission/quest being as easy to follow as they made the Scaredy Cats quest in Adoulin, where they gave you a position for the places you needed to go in the CSs. However to some extent I doubt you would support them giving us the massive 'hand holding' that is a position rather than making us search entire zones, after all, the markers which would be placed on your map out of your way entirely are being objected to by you...Quote:
YES, looking at wiki every 2~3 min isn't immersive, pop-up window and ! isn't immersive either. The best way is to put the info in dialogue, not to solve the lack of immersion issue by reproducing the same issue.
I agree, not all feedback is valuable feedback, but what you said is akin to saying that 'all games die eventually so why even try to get new players if it means changing things?' To me, that is a very stupid line of thinking, because you are basically saying they shouldn't even bother getting new people, and just let it die.Quote:
That doesn't mean every complain is legit complain.
I have no doubt the FFXI I want is way different from the original game, so is FFXI of today, the one that has been alive 11 years. The changes I am talking about are not too vast or terrible, no, the two changes I primarily have argued with you about through multiple threads Afania are Mythics, and Quests.Quote:
Have you tried ARR? If not go try it. If you've tried and still dislike ARR, and wanted FFXI to be perfect game in your mind, then you will face players like me who would disagree with you. You don't want middle ground, the FFXI you want is way too different from what it originally was.
Mythics did not exist in the original game, and while I am sure you would argue that long term goals did and that is what you support, it makes little difference, and is not the topic at hand here. Quests on the other hand have evolved in games in their entirety, 11 years ago this kind of system was common, a system like that of which I ask for was unheard of, so of course it was not in the original game. That being said, what I am asking for doesn't change the game in any way you could not easily avoid if you chose to, you do realise that right?
The Quest Log is literally pointless as it is besides giving you names, the actual description of the quests are so vague that it isn't helpful at all, changing how it is now, it would serve the same purpose, telling you that you started a quest, and unless you entered the description, you would get no 'hand holding' from it.
Adding new markers would make it so that unless you not only went to the NPC and talked to them so they could add the markers, but also went to your name, entered markers, and then went to the red/blue quest markers, it could not possibly be there.
Lastly, I have consistently said I want a way to remove !s from popping up on screen if they did that because I would find it incredibly annoying myself unless I am specifically going out of my way to do quests at the time.
Tell me, of these 3 things how it changes the game from how it originally was in such a massive way, without deferring to the same old immersion answer, and maybe it will make more sense, till then you are saying it will change things too much without really saying how it is that it will change it so much when you can avoid it all...
Oh, and so far as ARR goes, no I haven't tried it, soon as someone gives me a PC which can run it or a PS3 so I can play it, I won't be playing the game. I have said a few times I ignore information about ARR for that very reason, I can't play the game, I do want to try it, but I am unable, so unless you want to give me a PC or PS3 to play it on, I can't try it, sorry.
I find this highly doubtful seeing as until he had a job, FFXI took up a great amount of his day, it was only after his time dwindled that he stopped playing as much, and then at all. Before then he was actually further in this game than I was, a higher level, better gear, so on, but after he quit I surpassed him so much that looking at me, how much time I spend, and how much I have had to spend in order to get to the point I can do events with other people, he has told me it just isn't worth the effort.Quote:
I don't know your friend, but I'm going to guess that the real reason why he wouldn't come back, is because FFXI no longer interest him/make him excited, not because he has no time.
Once a friend told me, "if you really want to do something, you will find time for it no matter how busy you are"
He could not even be bothered to go out and download everything for the return campaign because he would have to download it all, install it all, update it all.
After those 2 days go by he would have to spend more than a month re-familiarizing himself with the game and trying to finish old quest lines like CoP/RotZ/ToAU for certain things, as well as unlock Adoulin, start it, get his jobs leveled to 99, gear them... the list goes on and on, yes I admit part of why he doesn't want to come back is probably because he is not interested or excited, but ask yourself why that is the case.
I think the fact he has to do so much work before he could even play with the majority of people and really join a group for things is probably a large part of that. I mean, if I were to come back to a game and I was told that it would take a month of work before I could really enjoy it, yeah, excitement and interest in that game would die out for me very, very quickly, that's part of why I have never quit FFXI, because if I do, I will never return.
This example sounds the most like my friend, but there are key differences. Once he got a job he did not stop gaming, not even close, similar to the person you describe he continued to game, but one key difference is that he and I still only play Civilization V or SWTOR a few short hours(2~4 depending on the day) at best. Those days are few and far between as well, not because he does not like the games, but because he simply doesn't have time, he can't play at work, he isn't home and free long enough to play much, and this game simply takes to much time to get caught up let alone do much.Quote:
I got a friend Mr.A who I play with for years, and originally wanted to start Mythic with me, wanting a Mythic forever. Got a job and quit. I asked if he wants to come back, he replied "I only have 2hr a day to play, I don't have friends/LS in XI anymore that I can't do anything, but I'll go back sometime in the future". I invited him to my LS and offered to play with him but he refused.
However, after XIV launch he plays ARR all day, even at work. Made progress 10x faster than me and had multiple relic a few weeks after launch, and coil static etc.
He can make friends in XIV, somehow magically popped more than 2hr a day AND play ARR at work, but he couldn't do that to FFXI. It's obvious which game he likes to play more.
Could you imagine someone with 2~4 hours max a day playing this game? Even if his character were already caught up, that is 1~2 Ark Angels, 1 Delve run, 1 Dyna run, 1~2 Salvage runs, most of this would take his entire day to do just 1 of these events alone, the amount he could get done overall would be minor. I will not deny, some people use a lack of time as an excuse, I myself have done it on multiple occasions, but from what I see with him and other games he plays its more of an actual reason than an excuse brought up due to lack of interest, though as I explained above, a lack of interest in the fact of everything he would have to do anyways is not something I would think is uncommon.
Yes, some goals excite people, but the question is are these goals exciting or do they feel bothersome and pointless? That is what you must ask yourself from the perspective of a new player. I made my second account, the one I post on, if you look at my level it has not changed in about a month because I got tired of leveling again. I got simply bored, I hated the idea of doing so many of the quests I have already done such as CoP, RotZ, ToAU, Abyssea, LBs, Gobbie-Bags, Mog Safe/Locker upgrades, the list goes on and on.Quote:
IMO, even spending 3 days to play a game like this is a waste of time. I mean really? Get rid of LB? Get rid of gobbie bag? Get rid of quests and missions so I can log on and do AA/delve battle instantly? Is this RPG or online action game? I used to play unhealthy amount of FFXI, because the goals in FFXI excited me, not because the road toward the goal has no obsticles.
This character was made to give me the perspective of a new, up and coming RDM, so that while I write my FFXI RDM Guide I have the ability to include some sections and information from a perspective I would not otherwise have. At the same time however, it has allowed me to give a much more personal perspective of how the quest system is by compare to the rest of FFXI of today. RoE, Trust, HP Warps and the large number of Warps in general, all very modern ideas, yet many old systems such as Missions/Quests still exist as they were. I use this character as an example of why I feel like new players would not find many of these goals or tasks exciting, but rather a roadblock to something more enjoyable that they are trying to reach, but are being stopped from reaching by tedious tasks thrown in their path.
The time I heard the most interest in the game from him was when I told him about the return campaign as well as RoE and Trust, explaining that Trust would allow him to XP like we did in the old days if he wanted to, it wouldn't be perfect, but it was something.Quote:
I don't know your friend, but your friend may be in the same situation as me, handing him everything isn't going to get him back, maybe it'll get him back for 3 days.
In all honesty, the return campaign did seem to spark some interest in him, and he told me a few weeks ago he was thinking of coming back, but I haven't heard from him in a bit. Some of the quality of life changes do seem to have made a difference for him at least, perhaps not enough to bring him back, or change his mind, but enough that for the first time in more than a year I heard him say that coming back was even a possibility rather than simply saying he didn't care like when I have told him about many updates in the past.