New weapons with higher base damage then relics

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Originally Posted by Nebo

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post424630

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Those aren't the same thing. The one that Toioiz linked is talking about how people are upset about the scaling. (I can't translate it that well and Google translate doesn't help much.) It seems that many JP players are pretty livid about this too.

If I'm reading what Matsui posted there.. admittedly.. google translate is terribad....

We would get our WS and aftermath unlocked to use to any other weapon of our choosing of the same type? So these awesome new weapons, with the aftermath/WS of the R/E/M? You know what? I'm okay with that. Still get what I worked for, others still HAVE to build a R/E/M for it and I bet you.. still have to go to 99.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

If I'm reading what Matsui posted there.. admittedly.. google translate is terribad....

We would get our WS and aftermath unlocked to use to any other weapon of our choosing of the same type? So these awesome new weapons, with the aftermath/WS of the R/E/M? You know what? I'm okay with that. Still get what I worked for, others still HAVE to build a R/E/M for it and I bet you.. still have to go to 99.

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Of R/M/E, you must be an E. Most people are angry about R, Relics. A relic WS and aftermath don't make two shits of difference, you don't build Relics or Mythics for the WS. Emps were all about WS and aftermath.

So with the reorganization, SE is taking roughly 80-90% of XI's annual profit and funding console game development. The rest to maintain the game.

"Manpower issues with XI." aka the new "PS2 limitations"

Adjust the percentage then. Since Day One you've had monthly paying beta testers and a Game Engine that's never been completely overhauled.

i feel like occasionally attacking thrice, that can proc on subsequesnt WS's, and lasts 3 minutes... is a pretty big deal.


but it's all beside the point anyway. not all prestige weapons will be even close to equally affected by the rumored change, so it's not an ideal solution whether it's 1:3 or 2:3

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

i feel like occasionally attacking thrice, that can proc on subsequesnt WS's, and lasts 3 minutes... is a pretty big deal.


but it's all beside the point anyway. not all prestige weapons will be even close to equally affected by the rumored change, so it's not an ideal solution whether it's 1:3 or 2:3

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It's a big deal, but if I had Tizona, I wouldn't use Expiation over Vorpal Blade regularly, but if you take Death Penalty as an example, it's Quick Draw enhancements seem to give an extreme damage boost.

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Originally Posted by Kojo

Of R/M/E, you must be an E. Most people are angry about R, Relics. A relic WS and aftermath don't make two shits of difference, you don't build Relics or Mythics for the WS. Emps were all about WS and aftermath.

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Yeah, I'm an E. Though honestly, even without my aftermath, just taking Myrkr over to any other staff would be... absolutely amazing for me. Perp- or mab/phys staves and that.. just.. wow.

Thought I can see why Relic holders are upset, Apoc's Ws is cool and all, but without the haste.. why bother.... Then there's Gugnir...

Thought honestly (puts his flame suit on) having leveled these things and kept them "relevant" hurt the game in my opinion. It was time the game moved on finally. I just wished they picked a more... delicate way to move on that AH/Craftable weapons. >.<

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Originally Posted by Kojo

Mythics are about the stats, not the WS or base dmg.

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What the heck? Mythics are ALL ABOUT THE AFTERMATH.

And Mythic owners have the most right to be upset. Not only can the WS be used by anybody, none of the WS are even worth using at this stage of the game unless you have the Mythic.

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Originally Posted by detlef

And Mythic owners have the most right to be upset. Not only can the WS be used by anybody, none of the WS are even worth using at this stage of the game unless you have the Mythic.

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A few are.

First be wrong about what makes Mythics good. Next pick on statement that a few mythic weapon skills may still be used today. Very well. That's fair. A few are still used today.

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Originally Posted by detlef

First be wrong about what makes Mythics good. Next pick on statement that a few mythic weapon skills may still be used today. Very well. That's fair. A few are still used today.

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Are you frustrated?

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Originally Posted by Kojo

Are you frustrated?

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That's a silly question. I think most people posting in this thread are pretty damn frustrated, wouldn't you say?

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Originally Posted by Kojo

Are you frustrated?

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Yup. You were wrong about something. I corrected you. Instead of acknowledging that you don't know why people make Mythic weapons, you picked on the fact that some people do continue to use weapon skills like Drakesbane and Stringing Pummel. You're absolutely right about that, and I misspoke.

With that in mind, knowing that aftermath is the reason people make Mythics (specifically melee weapons) and that Mythic weapon skills can be unlocked by anybody, can you see why it might be frustrating if Matsui's "solution" is to transfer RME weapon skills to Delve weapons?

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Originally Posted by Ica

That's a silly question. I think most people posting in this thread are pretty damn frustrated, wouldn't you say?

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Indeed. I, too, am quite perturbed.

I have been a relic owner since 2006 and SE has always come through by boosting our stats to make ours on top again (R/M/E). I have no doubt they will do it again, but be prepared to do some insane trials again. I remember the 9500 Kill shots we had to do before they nerfed them. I remember the months and months of endless killing solo. So just give them time.

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Originally Posted by Unctgtg

I have been a relic owner since 2006 and SE has always come through by boosting our stats to make ours on top again (R/M/E). I have no doubt they will do it again, but be prepared to do some insane trials again. I remember the 9500 Kill shots we had to do before they nerfed them. I remember the months and months of endless killing solo. So just give them time.

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We getting unlocked WS
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...149#post427149

Ok guess our weapons really are not going to be used anymore.

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Originally Posted by detlef

some people do continue to use weapon skills like Drakesbane and Stringing Pummel.

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I could see Mandalic Stab maybe making a comeback as well against super duper NMs? THF's Multi hit weapon skills aren't all that that hot against high level shtuff.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

I could see Mandalic Stab maybe making a comeback as well against super duper NMs? THF's Multi hit weapon skills aren't all that that hot against high level shtuff.

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Mandalic Stab is pretty nice SA'd, TA'd, or SATA'd. Other than that... Nope.

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Originally Posted by Kojo

Mandalic Stab is pretty nice SA'd, TA'd, or SATA'd. Other than that... Nope.

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That would be the point.

Really... I don't know what's in their heads.
You don't introduce such a big change in game (new weapons etc) without having a CLEAR PATH in your mind.
They acted in a superficial way, ignoring possible consequences, with an attitude that made them think "we'll think about solutions later, but only if people whine! If they don't we'll have it easy guys"

What is this, exactely? They're digging themselves a hole deeper and deeper and deeper with each new post over the last weeks, this is... unbelievable really.

I'm gonna post this here as the original thread is probably doomed to deletion:

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Originally Posted by Mara

Okay, guys, do you happen to realize how many people in your game have spent months to freaking YEARS to obtain relics, mythics, empyreans? Yeah... A LOT OF US!!!

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They know exactly how many people have them. Just refer to the Census.

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Do you realize how much work it is to obtain these things? You must, you made them, after all. So, let me spell this out for you, since you're so fucking retarded that you obviously never realized it.

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Matsui doesn't know because he's never tried to do it himself. If you've never built one or been part of the process then you don't know how painful it can be. They can't comprehend the emotional attachment. It's all just numbers on a screen. Heck, when you look at the process as a table on a web page it looks misleadingly easy. Then when you actually start to do it the reality of it hits you in the face. I don't know about other dev team members, but Matsui hasn't experienced that. It's no wonder he didn't fully understand what he was doing when he proposed or approved this.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Matsui doesn't know because he's never tried to do it himself. If you've never built one or been part of the process then you don't know how painful it can be. They can't comprehend the emotional attachment. It's all just numbers on a screen. Heck, when you look at the process as a table on a web page it looks misleadingly easy. Then when you actually start to do it the reality of it hits you in the face. I don't know about other dev team members, but Matsui hasn't experienced that. It's no wonder he didn't fully understand what he was doing when he proposed or approved this.

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So very true. When originally looking at making a Mythic I thought it would take maybe a month at most, it was nothing, now... god... He came into the job saying he had not even beaten Maat yet, that set him up for so much... I am not sure how to put it, it was disappointing for me to see that the man in charge of the game is a man who has yet to pass level 70. The fact that he is messing with weapons far above a caliber than he has ever personally achieved is bad, and the fact he is doing it as much as he is, is terrible. I really wonder why this jump in DMG was ever allowed, or what sparked this idea in his mind. Nothing in the entire game will ever be the same if this goes through to the end because everything which was hard will become a ton easier, everything easy will become trash, everything worth getting will become a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Kojo

Mandalic Stab is pretty nice SA'd, TA'd, or SATA'd. Other than that... Nope.

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Mandalic Stab is still kinda terrible... Then again I have a 99 Mandau so Mercy spoiled me :\

But without a 99 Mythic dagger, I think you'd get better numbers from SA-Exent or TA-Exent... M.Stab is just really bad. Its essentially a 1-hit Shark bite with a ~1.60x Attack Mod, Which makes it great if the enemy has super DEF/EVA and you dont have Mercy (which is more often since 90% of content you'd be good on DEF/EVA was obsoleted Monday).

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Mandalic Stab is still kinda terrible... Then again I have a 99 Mandau so Mercy spoiled me :\

But without a 99 Mythic dagger, I think you'd get better numbers from SA-Exent or TA-Exent... M.Stab is just really bad. Its essentially a 1-hit Shark bite with a ~1.60x Attack Mod, Which makes it great if the enemy has super DEF/EVA and you dont have Mercy (which is more often since 90% of content you'd be good on DEF/EVA was obsoleted Monday).

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I don't have Extent, THF isn't my main, might get it later on, now that they changed the WS mods about.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Mandalic Stab is still kinda terrible... Then again I have a 99 Mandau so Mercy spoiled me :\

But without a 99 Mythic dagger, I think you'd get better numbers from SA-Exent or TA-Exent... M.Stab is just really bad. Its essentially a 1-hit Shark bite with a ~1.60x Attack Mod, Which makes it great if the enemy has super DEF/EVA and you dont have Mercy (which is more often since 90% of content you'd be good on DEF/EVA was obsoleted Monday).

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On these new NMs, I have a hard time seeing THF being able to get enough Accuracy or Attack for Exenterator or Evisceration to outperform SA/TA Mandalic Stab with these new daggers.

But THF got royally boned in general this update. Our only real worthwhile endgame WS are were stacked RME WS. To use those, we'd have to use inferior weapons.

...and even using one of those super Delve daggers, THF (and one handers in general) just took an even bigger jump to the back of the DD line behind any 2 hander that doesn't have choose between dual wielding a drastically weaker weapon in their offhand or single wielding for better DPS.

Didn't they say they were trying to help out one handers? Because this update is one of the biggest setbacks we've had in a long time.

Honestly, If not for a 99 Mandau, I'd be giving some thought to just using a Dagger/Shield until i can get two DMG~90+ Daggers >_>.

Still, IDK what I'm going to do with my Mandau when I get one of these DMG:90 daggers... Offhand it, /shield? I JUST DONT KNOW.

And yah, After experiencing Delve NMs, I'd have to say SA/TA MAND.STAB is probably tops. All REM WS work, but if you dont have a REM, Mand stab works... I SUPPOSE.

Can anyone link me to the JP thread where people are flipping their lids over all of this?

Gonna go "thumbs up" posts over there since doing it in the EN forums isnt gonna do much.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

Didn't they say they were trying to help out one handers? Because this update is one of the biggest setbacks we've had in a long time.

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Yeah, what's the deal with this? Did their changes to attack, defense, or whatever really do anything to improve 1-hander dmg? Maybe I don't completely understand what they were trying to do, but I'm certainly not seeing any great increases in dmg. Am I doing something horribly wrong? Did I miss something here?

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Yeah, what's the deal with this? Did their changes to attack, defense, or whatever really do anything to improve 1-hander dmg? Maybe I don't completely understand what they were trying to do, but I'm certainly not seeing any great increases in dmg. Am I doing something horribly wrong? Did I miss something here?

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All they did is make it so that your ratio capped at 2.25 like 2handers. Nothing more, nothing less.

And the "setback" he is referring to is the new weapon selection. Realistically, most dedicated players will only have access to the buyable Plasm weapons (like Aphotic Kukri) so 1H users have only one hand with new DPS. They're left either offhanding an old knife for the benefits of Dual Wield or single wielding, which represents a substantial DPS hit in either case. 2H users also only have access to buyable Plasm weapons, but they can use those weapons on 100% of their swings/WSs.

Thus, if the new Plasm weapons represent a 30% DPS increase, 1H users see something more like a 15% DPS increase while 2H users get the full 30%. This widens the gap between the two types of weapons even further.

Just ask any thief fulltiming TH knife...

Do something about Excalibur sword as well...make the Knight of the round do more damage and make it PLD ONLY WEP.

Made a couple of pick up groups for delve fracture. Didn't gear check people or anything took whoever sent me a tell. Were able to kill NMs they took a long time but they still went down basically you can only target 1 nm per 45 min run in a pick up. Got several of the key items. Most likly people will be able to get those new 30k plasma weapons fairly easily if I can just throw together a random group of people and kill stuff.

Probably be awhile down the road before average random player can kill the final bosses though.

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Originally Posted by Manux

Do something about Excalibur sword as well...make the Knight of the round do more damage and make it PLD ONLY WEP.

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R u havin' a giggle, m8?

From reading the posts over the past 2 days. My point I have to make about the latest patch/upgrade to the game is this. I have been playing FFXI since the North American release on PC. Yes I have been on the game a lot of years. I have almost all jobs in game at lv99. I also have 2 accounts I play. I only have 2 EMP weapons ( Verethragna lv95 going to 99 and Almace lv85 going to 99 ).

I would not like to see all my effort gone to waste to make these to weapons as my hard hitting weapons go to dust in one update. I play mostly every day at least 3 hours after work or on weekends. I would hate to quit the game because I enjoy it a lot. To add I have not purchased the new expansion yet because of all the anger over the upgrades. I'm still enjoying the old content and have finally gotten my characters to the point where I feel they are strong with good gear.

1. The armor upgrades are fine so far. The new armor in the game is not a problem to me because the stats don't over shine most of the top gear you can get by much or any at all depending on what you have. I'm from the school of its the combinations of gear you put on that give you the most effectiveness for the situation your in.

2. The new weapons make an issue because of this. The new lv99 weapons over power the old RME weapons at lv99. I see some people trying to compare the new lv99 weapons with a weapon sub 99 level (lv75 - 95 RME). I would compare a lv99 weapon to a lv99 weapon. In the terms of RME weapons. These weapons should be made equal to or better then the base level weapons you get from Delve. Also the RME weapons at 99 should have additional quests made to update them further at least to a certain point. SE could make the RME weapons stop after a point of upgrade to be less then the Delve weapons if they want to gradually phase out the older RME weapons in later newer content of the franchise. Now with that said... once your RME weapon reaches its max and the newer Delve relics start to out pace the old RME weapons in power. SE could give the players a choice with a quest that would let them merge the older RME weapon with a Delve Relic up to a certain upgrade level to enhance the Delve Relic or just stop progress on the older RME weapon.

I can kind of see that SE wants to take the game to the next level by making new content and a more powerful relic weapon set. But the slap to the face is that they have not planned out how to keep the RME weapons relevant to the new content to let them phase out slowly. A good solid plan to phase out or continue the RME weapons would solve a lot of the grief and debate about the new update and help players get back to playing.

I hope this issue gets fixed fast because I still like to play FFXI. Best wishes to all players and keep having fun and adventure.

I've posted this idea in items discussion. I wanted to add some constructive ideas instead of complaints. I honestly think this could be a solution so I'm hoping people read it:

1) All R/M/E can be etched with 1 evolith spot

2) All new weapons obtained in SoA can be 'melted' down to a Rare/Ex evolith that will modify the inscribed weapon to the DMG: and Delay: values of the melted weapon. Stats, weapon skills, hidden effects, etc of the base R/M/E are maintained.

3) Since E 95 and 99 weapons are a lot of effort for only +3/2 more of the stat modifier either:
a) Add a +5/10% associated weapon skill modifier similar to R/M weapons at 95/99
or
b) Increase the aftermath by time or proc % for 95/99 weapons

It seems simple enough for me. Players have to continually play new content and obtain the new weapons to keep their R/M/E up to par. R/M/E do not go to waste, it may not be the best weapon, even upgraded this way, but it's never useless.

Twastar 85 is a great example: Izhiikoh -> Evolith (DMG:108 Delay:200) -> Twastar(85) yields
Twastar: DMG:108 Delay:200 Dex+10, "Rudras Storm" and aftermath
~vs~
Izhiikoh: DMG:108 Delay:200 DEX+15 Accuracy+29 Attack+25 "Triple Attack"+2%

It becomes clearly a choice for the player on how to use their weapon and for what. Evoliths uses an already programmed game mechanic, no new system required for producers. Gives credence to old content and effort while not forcing these weapons to be the end all. Casual players can now play alongside R/M/E holders and have fun with great new weapons. R/M/E become a stat variation is all. Please tell me if you think this idea is decent.

As someone who doesn't like collecting toenails/farming gil - is it wrong for me to be happy about this direction? I mean, people who have an aversion to doing really boring things have been boned by XI in terms of getting decent weapons for a long time. I don't mind something like voidwatch where I go in with a pick up and spam some hard mobs (even against a low drop rate)

All the super hardcore people will have these things before everyone else, so why you complaining? Should everyone be forced to collect 1000 dynamis lord toenails just cause you did it? Is it wrong to change it up a bit so those of us who would rather have fun vs. farming gil all day get a chance to play DD?

I don't think we care about relics being slightly outclassed or on/par with these new weapons, but outclassing them by 30% is what most people are complaining about.

Roundabout, but the "WHY" Street is a two way road. Everyone keeps asking Relic owners "WHy should you..." This, and "Why do you..." That, but, I mean, with all the "RME ARE SO EASY" Flying around, why do you guys insist they're so hard, yet at the same time insist they're so easy so they should be replaced.

These are really just devils advocate questions, but I mean enough is enough, some of you keep ragging and laughing at Relic owners, and you keep dodging any questions as to why you think this is good instead of just dancing in a circle about how laziness finally paid off.

Why do you feel these laughably easy to obtain weapons should be 30% Stronger than a 99 Relic? Why do you feel relics should be outclassed when most if not all owners put in substantial time and effort? Why do you think Less Effort > More Effort in terms of rewards? Why should players who dont want to do the work get the best? Why can't you be happy with what you put forth the effort to obtain?


Edit: Bad placing BST Person, This isn't specifically to you, just got done readin a few pages, notice it seems like I'm pointing this at you.

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Originally Posted by Olor

As someone who doesn't like collecting toenails/farming gil - is it wrong for me to be happy about this direction? I mean, people who have an aversion to doing really boring things have been boned by XI in terms of getting decent weapons for a long time. I don't mind something like voidwatch where I go in with a pick up and spam some hard mobs (even against a low drop rate)

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I'm not criticizing you at all, but there were plenty of decent weapons. Yeah, you'll never peak as high as an RME 99, but a few of the DA or OA2-4 weapons are good. 85 empies are even decent weapons and easy to obtain.

The dive into building a relic or empy, let alone a mythic, is a big one. It's one you decided not to take, but it's one other players took, and those that went for 99/99AG did it because they wanted to be the best.

You said it yourself--FFXI has been lacking decent weapons for people like you--except that it hasn't. Decency is all you're willing to invest time in. Decency is what you get.

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All the super hardcore people will have these things before everyone else, so why you complaining? Should everyone be forced to collect 1000 dynamis lord toenails just cause you did it? Is it wrong to change it up a bit so those of us who would rather have fun vs. farming gil all day get a chance to play DD?

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There are other games that follow the model you want better. The heart attack most players are experience is that FFXI was never intended to be one of those games.