Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

i aggree thf should get abilities that enhances their assassin traits which is what its all about or make mug do crazy dmg like in ff of the past

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

If there is a cap that is the absolute worst case scenario and a floor would be the base drop rate. You are still missing the point.

Curing is the only thing that sets WHM apart at all. It is heads and tails above anyone else capable of curing. WHM is the king of cures.

TH is the only thing that sets THF apart at all. It's TH abilities over those of RNG BST or anyone /THF are as of now unable to be nailed down or even discerned. THF is the shift manager of TH.

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Take a mob that has a 5% droprate on some item with TH2, say now that TH10 gives you a 10% droprate. If you needed 50 of these items from this monster, you've now gone from having to kill it 1000 times to 500 times. This is a stupid broken benefit and it's quite possible TH can do this, there's been nothing that proves or shows that it can't/doesn't.

Diorite is a terrible test subject in my opinion because it is a pop item in a pop system and therefore it's possible SE has a low droprate ceiling for it in order to facilitate the amount of crowding they want on through higher tiers of that system. Byakko's haidate would be a much better test, or anything that is actual gear, really, rather than pop items and crafting ingredients.

So you're suggesting someone kill 100+ byakkos? If SE puts a cap on anything that they want to remain rare then TH might as well not exist.

Somehow you are STILL missing the point. TH+ does not -->DOES NOT<-- work like that. From the numbers myself and others have recorded there is simply no way. It's impossible that it's a static increase capable of making a 1% drop rate into a 11% drop rate. Ridill's new drop rate is sub 2%. 9/10 fafnirs killed are killed with TH9-10. If TH+ worked in any way shape or form like you suggest then ridill would have a minimum of a 9-10% drop rate and that's assuming its base drop rate is .01%. And if you say that there is a cap on ridill drop rates then I ask you again, wtf would the point of bringing TH for the sake of getting a rare drop?

I don't know what else to say to you. We have numbers in the other thread that show th+ to have almost no effect on multiple different drops but all you keep saying "but maybe it does did you ever think of that?" Yes we did think of that. That's why we are in the process of trying to show some noticeable difference.

Now before you go back to one of your other points I want to refer you to the fact that we can know the margins of error based on our sample sizes and you don't need a 10,000 kill sample to prove the lack of a significant increase. You would only need something like 10k kills to nail down an almost exact number. It's pretty easy to see from the data we've collected so far that a THFs TH is not noticeably better than a /THFs TH. <<<----- Please take note of that. That is the concern here. TH is the bread an butter of THF. The only thing keeping it relevant. Just as a WHMs superior curing ability is what keeps them relevant. The difference is that a WHM is a vastly better healer than the next best option. THFs TH ability above the other options are not only insignificant but we have yet to find any proof of their existence. Therefor not making TH a good reason to gimp the other aspectsof the job to the level that they have been gimped.

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

Diorite is a terrible test subject in my opinion because it is a pop item in a pop system and therefore it's possible SE has a low droprate ceiling for it in order to facilitate the amount of crowding they want on through higher tiers of that system. Byakko's haidate would be a much better test, or anything that is actual gear, really, rather than pop items and crafting ingredients.

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If they did that....Why wouldn't they cap the drop rate on haidates or w/e other rare drop that you can come up with in the same fashion? this seems like a pretty far-fetched and unlikely to be proven theory. Even if you prove that dio drops are capped, that would likely cause people to think that all r/e items may be capped until proven otherwise, further decreasing the perceived usefulness of bringing a thief to proc TH in higher tiers.

If I proc yellow, I see immediate visible increase in drop rate.

If W/E job Procs TH on the mob I see another obvious increase in drop rate.

If a thief procs up to TH10 on 10000 different mobs, we might be able to prove there is a significant increase in drop rate......

see the problem?

You guys should go play BRD/THF. Sing two Mambos when you want to be evasive.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

You guys should go play BRD/THF. Sing two Mambos when you want to be evasive.

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Nah I'll just use atma of dread and a +1 TH sash and sub something useful.

Hmmm. not a bad idea, I do need to level bard on my main. Battle bard RAWR!

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Nah I'll just use atma of dread and a +1 TH sash and sub something useful.

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As far as I know, there hasn't been any testing on TH+2 vs. TH2. I'd assume that TH2 is very different from TH+2 though.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

As far as I know, there hasn't been any testing on TH+2 vs. TH2. I'd assume that TH2 is very different from TH+2 though.

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I'd love for someone to test those, because I believe they're the same XD Unfortunately I have neither Dread Atma nor an augmented Tarutaru Sash, or my WAR would go nuts with those.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

As far as I know, there hasn't been any testing on TH+2 vs. TH2. I'd assume that TH2 is very different from TH+2 though.

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Yeah I'm just assuming the worst. Seems to be the only way to not go into full rage mode these days

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Somehow you are STILL missing the point. TH+ does not -->DOES NOT<-- work like that.

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You don't know how it works lol. There can be caps and floors you aren't aware of. It could be far more complex than you're assuming. It could only work on some drops and not others. You have nfc how it works.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

see the problem?

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The problem is extrapolating assumptions from useful data that in reality only pertains to the single test. We know that on colibri feathers, TH3 does nothing over TH2. We know, possibly, that on diorite, TH2 equal to TH6-7. That is it, that is all we know, you can't make assumptions about other things from those two tests.

Then I repeat. If SE can just arbitrarily set caps on drop rates then wtf is the point of treasure hunter. They would just set drop rates to be what they want them to be. You seem to be the one who has "nfc" how it works because the stuff you are suggesting makes no sense. All previous TH testing points to rerolls for TH1 and 2 and ???? for TH3. We don't know exactly how all of it works but we do actually have a clue where as you certainly do not. And FFS stop saying they could set floors. The minimum drop rate something can have is it's base drop rate not a "floor". There's no such thing as TH- gear that would require the existence of a "floor" lol. You just look silly when you say that.

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

The problem is extrapolating assumptions from useful data that in reality only pertains to the single test. We know that on colibri feathers, TH3 does nothing over TH2. We know, possibly, that on diorite, TH2 equal to TH6-7. That is it, that is all we know, you can't make assumptions about other things from those two tests.

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Even if you were right about this (you aren't), that would mean that TH+ just simply has no effect on a number of things.....

....how is that in any way something NOT to be pissed off about?

Bringing a WHM/THF gets you the same drop on diorite as a THF main? As if THF utility, as a job needed to be more marginalized.

If what you are saying is true, bringing a THF is pointless on anything they feel was deemed to be worthy of such a droprate cap, and TH becomes as useless as steal...effective for a chance at getting useless fodder items but can't get you anything of rarity or value?

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

The problem is extrapolating assumptions from useful data that in reality only pertains to the single test. We know that on colibri feathers, TH3 does nothing over TH2. We know, possibly, that on diorite, TH2 equal to TH6-7. That is it, that is all we know, you can't make assumptions about other things from those two tests.

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And mythril ores and golem shards and raxa and ridills right? Maybe the only 2 mobs in the game with TH caps are Aura statues and Lesser colibris!?! I guess to prove anything we need a 1000 kill sample from every mob in the game?

WHM/THF is pretty awesome. Even outside Abyssea it's not hard to keep MP with some Refresh gear and AF3+2 legs.

And SA spirit taker!

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

And mythril ores and golem shards and raxa and ridills right? Maybe the only 2 mobs in the game with TH caps are Aura statues and Lesser colibris!?! I guess to prove anything we need a 1000 kill sample from every mob in the game?

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Technically you would yes(though not 1000 kills, depends on the loot droprate), unless SE comes out and tells us how it works. Also keep in mind that is older content. Why don't you try on something like Awahondo?

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

Technically you would yes(though not 1000 kills, depends on the loot droprate), unless SE comes out and tells us how it works. Also keep in mind that is older content. Why don't you try on something like Awahondo?

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Do you still think the world is flat?

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Do you still think the world is flat?

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No, and you can't assume th is broken on everything just because th3+ doesnt affect colibri feathers and possibly diorite. I'm just as hopeful as tthe rest of you that thf main is indeed useless but you can't say its broken on everything just from the one example we have so far.

Guys, you've been trolled for like last 5 pages by now, plz /ignorelist and move on. Debbie has been told to gtho from all other threads, so he's feeding here now.
What's the point discussing with 7-yo RDM1?

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Originally Posted by Zirael

Guys, you've been trolled for like last 5 pages by now, plz /ignorelist and move on. Debbie has been told to gtho from all other threads, so he's feeding here now.
What's the point discussing with 7-yo RDM1?

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Actually, your right. just read some other threads. moving on.

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Originally Posted by Zirael

Guys, you've been trolled for like last 5 pages by now, plz /ignorelist and move on. Debbie has been told to gtho from all other threads, so he's feeding here now.
What's the point discussing with 7-yo RDM1?

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Ditto. I feel ashamed, I should have known no one could be THAT dumb.

Well at least all of this was interesting for me to read and a nice way to burn 10 minutes.

As far as TH Testing goes, I'll try to make an effort to mass-farm some popular enemies and take down their drop rates... i think Dynamis might be a good place to start.

when i do Dynamis, I'll record all of my Drops rates as BST/DNC (Dipper Yuly, Assuming TH2) Vs when i go THF Main. Dynamis seems like the perfect spot to test this with how many drops are there (Relic, Relic weapons, Currency, Synth Mats).

I'll posti t in the TH Testing thread when i get enough data.

Yuly actually has TH3 supposedly. I guess someone procced to TH4 with bounty shot after Yuly planted TH.

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

Diorite is a terrible test subject in my opinion because it is a pop item in a pop system and therefore it's possible SE has a low droprate ceiling for it in order to facilitate the amount of crowding they want on through higher tiers of that system. Byakko's haidate would be a much better test, or anything that is actual gear, really, rather than pop items and crafting ingredients.

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I had 3 diorites in my pool last night during thf/nin testing. That good enough for you?

It's hardly diorite testing at this point anymore. It's obvious it got a drop rate boost. It's more about everything else those statues drop. I also have a need to mass farm them for the diorites. And byakko isn't something I can really test on because I'd need another THF for certain to be able to SA often for procs. I think so far the best I've seen on Byakko is maybe TH8. I rarely proc it as solo THF DPS. But sure, okay, I'll keep track of Byakko kills. I'll slow kill him for procs even though it'll take for fricking ever. I'll even kill his ass on WAR for TH2 vs TH6+ comparisons. He'll probably be the easiest of the bunch to kill on WAR. I wouldn't dare try the others with RDM cures and little evasion. Might get killed, might not. I just know I can nearly duo Kirin now with WHM and probably will when I stop goofing up my attempts at doing it, like forgetting a buff or food or whatever. Last time he hit me with quake and used AF like instantly to kill me by the skin of his teeth before cure could land...

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Yuly actually has TH3 supposedly. I guess someone procced to TH4 with bounty shot after Yuly planted TH.

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It does. For the sake of the Test I'll likely assume TH3 though, Since there will be 2 of us.

we need ability to compliment the assassin in thfs like backstab, side step, short range teleport or something of that nature

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Originally Posted by FANCY60

we need ability to compliment the assassin in thfs like backstab, side step, short range teleport or something of that nature

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THF already has those abilites, they are called Sneak attack (back stab) Trick attack or hide if you want to get techinal
(side step) short range teleport? that actually makes no sense. what possible use does that have.

I believe their "idea" was to have you warp to the back of the mob and SA instantly. But that idea wouldn't work well in FFXI...

I honestly wish they would add a job trait similar to Assassin, but it allowed you to use SA from any side of the mob as long as you don't currently have the mob's attention. I'm sure others have suggested this before.

Thank you Camate for relaying our concerns to the dev deam. I'm glad we'll be able to upgrade TH with stacked WSs now. That should be a big help. I do have an issue with this though:

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Originally Posted by Camate

Depending on how many players are in the battle, the rate of intimidation will increase.

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Could you relay to them that making more THF abilities useless when solo is ridiculous? Currently while soloing, 8 of our 13 job abilities have no effect whatsoever. Adding a new ability that might stop 1-2 attacks every three minutes is not the right direction.

Yah, i do kind of hate that, with our evasion, THF can make a pretty decent solo job on THF/DNC on weaker content... But almost every ability we have is fundamentally worthless unless we're grouped. I think the entire Thief job is just royally bone beyond repair thanks to the job itself being one big design flaw. The amount of time it would take to fix the job is simply not within realistic reach. We have nearly no abilities that work well solo.

Not that being in a group is a bad thing, But its naive and ignorant to think everything is done in parties of 6 with a real tank. A lot of the game is devoid of that content, even with Voidwatch, stuff like Dynamis and Limbus will still be relevant for Relics and Stuff like Brutal Earring, and those are generally low manned...

Still, The entire idea of a job that helps drop rates in itself is a huge design flaw in an MMORPG, Nothing should increase drops except what we do in battle (Think SCNMs, Where killing xx mobs yielded better rewards). a type of proc system or something done in battle to increase drop rate, should have been in FF since day 1, and Treasure Hunter should not exist.

Wishful thinking at this stage of the game, Maybe FFXIV will learn from this mistake and never condemn a job to TH whore by creating a job with the ability to enhance drop rates.

But this is just one mans rantings. Camate is doing a lot for us, Sometimes i wish he was on the Dev team.

they should have given every job an equal chance to proc as well. The crap in abbysea is pretty lame.

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Originally Posted by Kysaiana

I honestly wish they would add a job trait similar to Assassin, but it allowed you to use SA from any side of the mob as long as you don't currently have the mob's attention. I'm sure others have suggested this before.

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A trait that increases the flanking range of when Sneak Attack lands would be tremendously helpful when we're trying to land spike damage, even in larger parties where enmity bounces. It'd be a godsend, honestly.

Either that, or lowering the recast timer and getting rid of the restrictions for Hide+SA, since stacking both makes it so that SA lands from any direction at that point.

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Originally Posted by RygaenYuui

A trait that increases the flanking range of when Sneak Attack lands would be tremendously helpful when we're trying to land spike damage, even in larger parties where enmity bounces. It'd be a godsend, honestly.

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I wonder if they would reconsider this nerf now and change their thinking. The range for landing sneak attack actually used to be much larger (you could land it from the side). But it was viewed to be too powerful for some crazy reason and nerfed accordingly.

I still don't understand the gimping of THF JAs in solo and low man settings. There are already more powerful soloers and low man tanks.

I remember the nerf (the constant nerfs from Sneak Attack, Steal for RMT countermeasures I guess, TP gain nerf since we were easily out-damaging 2H weapon jobs.) And it makes sense at lower levels that this would be a problem or an issue, but since the rules for enmity and the like have changed, and closing Skillchains w/ TA are no longer a staple to keeping hate on tanks anymore (contrary to popular belief, this is a pretty awesome tactic, but people would rather spam WSes anyhow for damage), you would think that something would have to give.

Lower levels, you want most players to understand the basics of the game. Generally it was required that you consider positioning when you're fighting regardless what level you were at; THF is so heavily dependent on positioning that if people decide to ignore it or if the situation does not allow it, then our output will suffer for other people's lack of concern or knowledge.

It would make sense that at a higher level a THF would develop a wider flanking range for backstabbing or at least some heavier multiplier for SA or allowing SA to be carried over to multiple hits or Double Backstabs (Of course Dev team would definitely think that idea is completely absurd, since they think that actually allowing THF signature skills more lead way would cause imbalance in the game); Maybe that's the difference between most Western RPGs and Japanese RPGs when it comes to this concept.

I really don't mind that we are less effective solo. Imo though, our party aspect really is weakish considering this trade-off. We go from 0 utility solo to something just a bit higher with a party.

So yeah, i like ideas that increase sa/ta efficacy, specially because they didn't change at all from lv15/30 to lv99. If the dex/crit bonus on SA could affect triple attack (on ws too) it would be the juiciest of the juices lol. But really, not receiving something like SA2/TA2 is crazy. Even drg got some love - a job that from 50-75 was essentially dead in terms of new JA/traits (not counting merits). So it makes sense that these tools of ours are updated as well. Or at the very least, we get new ones which are completely different (which is what i think it will happen).

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

I still don't understand the gimping of THF JAs in solo and low man settings. There are already more powerful soloers and low man tanks.

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You have Aura Steal, which is clearly the most powerful job ability in all of FFXI.