Why is Summoner the most ignored, misunderstood and broken job?

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

If you can out DD your own pet, why claim your pet is the DD and yourself not?

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Keep going, you are almost there. I do believe the day you put it all together, you won't be complaining about the pieces.

Obviously, the answer to your question is "SMN DD + pet DD > SMN DD > pet DD"

:cool:

I'm actually really curious what you use for your melee set up Dallas would u mind posting your gear of choice etc, for your situations?

Thanks in advanced.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I'd say I know everything but earthen armor, but I'm sure there is still something left that I don't know. For example I know WHY spirits casting timer reset on assault. They have two modes. Buff mode and Attack mode. But SE stripped all buffing spells of all but light elemental, so buff mode is very hard to notice. Buff mode is about 50% the recast of attack mode. Each time you use Assault, the spirit is set to attack mode AND have to start counting down from max recast. Every time you use Retreat, the spirit is set to buff mode AND have to start counting down from max recast. (Which is half of attack max recast). And that is just one thing I learned all on my own, since nobody had documented this or even talked about it online.

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meh. not entirely correct but not exactly wrong. only light spirit comes with different modes, for which its buffing mode is indeed 1/2 its regular casting time. light spirit also has its unique healing mode triggered by low hp. and you can direct who you want light spirit to buff (in buff mode) by facing it at any alliance members.
using assault/retreat simply resets the timer, and this is something you can actually use to your advantage when they start casting AM because you can prematurely reset it before the spell actually casts.

i feel sad for myself and greenith because we'd documented a lot of spirit findings many years ago..
formulas have since been streamlined but we pretty much laid the groundwork.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

You are confusing me. Suggesting melee SMN is the opposite of pigeonholing it, since it opens up yet another way to play the job. (Claiming melee SMN is the only way to play, however would fit with what you are saying).

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I'm saying that trying to focus on meleeing at all effectively distracts SMN from its current set role, which is nothing in particular, but everything through avatar. And in doing so holds back on the effectiveness of the job because it multiplies its weaknesses - no melee traits, low hp, low def/vit, dead in 1-2hits, without contributing enough back to the table.
I am fully assuming that people are referring to strategic battle situations, where any of this even matters, because a SMN could melee on EP or in Abyssea EXP for all i care and it makes no difference - but on endgame, especially the current top-tier (or any top tier NMs), it is totally not feasible, and thus unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

As I see it, we are probably of the same opinion. SMN isn't meant to be good at anything, it is supposed to be decent at a lot. Our opinions are a bit split at where "a lot" lies. You seem to be pretty content with "a few wards", "a few rages", "a few favors". I on the other hand think that every part should be an active part of the job.

It is the tiny things like:
- Phalanx scales with level. Why doesn't Nocturnal Shield?
- Aura range is like 10'. Why isn't it far enough to let your pet melee while your backline gets Macc, MAB, Refresh bonuses?
- Spirits takes like 30 seconds with good gear and after assault to cast a random spell. A PUP casts the optimal spell after 25 seconds.

Do the gaps need to be this large? Would we honestly replace all other jobs if we could toss out a 25 damage reduction Nocturnal Shield? Or how about we got a random spell after 15 seconds? You can still get bind > frost > frost > bind cycles, but it at least doesn't take 2 minutes to get through that cycle.

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This much I will agree. If the ward pacts actually became more effective, I'm not gonna be one to complain, but so far I don't think changes to them are necessary. I also don't find it realistic to say 'i want every smn ward to still be an effective option' at lv90, because thats kinda unreasonable. It's like BLU demanding that Metallic Body have a use at Lv90.

Effectiveness will come and go. The least they could do is make them still be relevant enough to use.. or scale them a fair bit. Earthen Ward scales (tho tbh i've never tested this past 75), Hastega is still the only AoE magic haste in the game and is ridiculously cheap MP wise, Crimson Howl is still ~9%, and so on. Hell, even our best damage BPs are still relatively cheap mp wise.
Part of the "problem" is that most of these pacts were never designed to scale to begin with, nor did they really need it.
Wards that sucked still suck. Those that were decent are still decent.
No one seriously used Frost or Lightning Armor in the past (cept maybe on Djinn) - I wouldn't expect them to start doing it now, even if its 'better'.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

The best part is that no new content is needed. Just sit and change numbers back and forth until you suddenly have some that make sense. Numbers that will make people say "Hey, use that ward! It is helpful".

Though I think some education might be needed also. The Earthen Armor discussion clearly shows that it isn't a bad BP:Ward, if you understand how it works. (Honestly, I still don't get it if is supposed to wear off on when it was effective, or if it lasts the full time and constantly lowers damage taken).

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If they do end up tweaking old wards to be more effective, then all it will really be is a bonus, because players can be pretty set in their ways. They usually favor the best buff/debuff of its sort and ignore pretty much everything else.
I'd be happy with a couple of good wards and a couple of good rages because we don't realistically ever need to use all of them in the same situation. People will tend to choose the best ones to use and stick to that. Even with wards. There are a lot more buffs/debuffs we could currently keep up that aren't even bad but don't for various reasons and I doubt this will change unless something drastic changes with the BP timer system.

Anyway, how 'good' they are also majorly depends on what players feel they want to focus on, and what else is available.
If Ramuh's Lv92 ward turns out to be some potent critical attack bonus you'll probably hear melee ask for more of that, especially outside Abyssea.

And I think education is always important, because then people will know how effective various abilities are.

Like how pretty much all of the post 75 wards are great additions. Tidal Roar is 25% attack down, the strongest a player can inflict and lands effortlessly. Earthen Armor makes a world of difference for tanks. Inferno Howl gives ~40ish extra damage enfire, Diamond Storm is like -25 eva, has nothing on Feint but is still useful, and who doesn't like Fleet Wind.

In this sense, I'm quite happy the new additions so far are actually good. But then again, so were Ecliptic Howl and Hastega (yes even the 10% one) back in the day. I don't expect SE to tweak old pacts to be better for 90+ use, but I do expect them to give us entirely new ones, because thats how the job has always been, like a huge deck of cards and you'll pick a small set to play in your hand.

What I'm expecting to see once the current set of celestial avatar wards is done, is...

1) new physical rage pacts.
we don't necessarily need them given how the 70 BPs are still fine, but we could use them as a bonus.
if not as new stronger options, additional variety options.
- a piercing dmg BP
- an aoe physical dmg BP (doesn't even have to be very strong)
- physical rage BPs that can create Lv3 skillchains. considering quite a few other jobs can crap out self lv3 skillchains, and ws well more than once a minute, avatars should by now be able to contribute in some way.

2) new healing pacts.
Healing Ruby III or something. II doesn't cut it anymore.

3) a new avatar.
this might sound like wishful thinking, but I'm not going to rule it out entirely - 1 new avatar that isn't available only during astral flow would add another say 3-4 rage and wards to the arsenal that may not necessarily be useful. but honestly, I just want a light elemental avatar that doesn't suck at nuking (sorry Carby, but you can just still to healing).

edit: just to add, Fafnir is not HNM caliber anymore, nor is he even much of any challenge (wasn't even at lv75. Nidhogg i'll give u), especially not when a good number of jobs can easily solo him...
so I hope you're not serious in using him as support for the SMN meleeing anyway argument.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I'll admit, you lost me. Are we talking only avatars, or comparing pet jobs with avatars?

If it were only avatars, I'd kindly disagree that it is rare to call "50% PDT" a melee trait, even if it helps. If you were saying we have 50% PDT and BST/PUP/DRG have melee traits, then I'm not sure what it means except that is how it is.

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I'm talking about avatars as we are a pet job solely dependant on our pets for real contribution.

I'm refering to the frontline survivabilty part of my "They have job traits/abilities for melee, front line survivablity as well as dumping their emnity on thier pet" of my point. -50% PDT is a trait that enables them to stay alive front line for a longer time. This is also 1/3 of my point if you compare a Summoner to a BST/PUP/DRG(player not the pet) they match 3/3.

1)The high level weapon skills from their given class natively
BST/DRG/PUP all get this.
Avatars get Blood Pacts which are pretty much equivalent to WS
SMN stops getting BPs at Spirit Taker

2)They have Higher melee stats
BST/DRG/PUP all get decent melee stats
Avatar performs well naked(does need some way to boost DoT/stats)
SMN is lowest tier in all but DEX here(don't get too excited though we're second lowest DEX in game)


3)They have job traits/abilities for melee, front line survivablity as well as dumping their emnity on thier pet
BST/DRG/PUP all get various traits/abilities for these 3 criteria i.e Snarl(dumping their emnity on thier pet), Martial arts(melee), evasion bonus(frontline survivability)
SMN gets none
Avatar has -50% PDT(frontline survivability)

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

I'm actually really curious what you use for your melee set up Dallas would u mind posting your gear of choice etc, for your situations?

Thanks in advanced.

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I assume the only part you need is the TP build haste set. Myrkr WS build is pure +MP. I switch to perp between fights. I macro in standard gear for physical (common) and magical pacts (rare). I stack SMN magic and/or Bonus TP for Wards.

TP build: Currently 22% Haste, -38% enmity

* = potentially augmentable gear, future update

Haste: 23% potential

Goliard Body 4%
Tern set 6%
Aug pants 3%
Zelus Tiara 8%
Nash Hands 1%
Nash Feet 1% (missing)

Enmity:
Novia -7%
Metanoia Ring -5%
Goliard Body -5%
Lore Boots -5%
Leisure Musk -3%
Nash Hands -4%
Pax Grip -4%
Merits -5%

Other:
Brutal Earring
Rajas Ring

Atma: RR/SS/AA (solo) RR/SS/VV (party) It's better to have regain in a party since there's more downtime.

Subjob: /SAM is too dangerous, I go /WHM for utility.

Melee Merits: 5 -enmity, 8 staff, 5 crit

You notice I have removed most Acc/Att gear. That's for survival only. I'd fill in ALL missing haste gear with Lore gear. Because our hate is so bad, I'd rather miss completely than hit without -enmity. Accuracy is still awesome in Abyssea. If SE fixes hate, I will go back to accuracy and /SAM.

taking into account master primarily, I think you missed mentioning some of the more important points for front-line survivability on pet based jobs.

VIT: DRG > BST / PUP > SMN
DRG: 2nd highest in game
BST, PUP: 3rd
SMN: 5th (last)

HP: DRG / BST > PUP > SMN
somewhere along these lines anyway.

Evasion skill: PUP> BST > DRG> SMN
PUP: B BST: C DRG: C- SMN: E

the rest have secondary defensive skills as well.
All 3 have Parry, PUP has Guard and BST has Shield, even if at E rank.

Traits
DRG has crit def bonus
BST has killer effects (yes it counts especially if you're being targeted, also enhanced by Gausape)
PUP has eva bonus 4 (+48 eva, 2nd highest in game) and crit def bonus

Defensive/Curative Abilities
DRG: Healing Breath, Restoring Breath
BST: none
PUP: Cures from automaton, Role-Reversal
SMN: 3 healing pacts, a bunch of defense pacts scattered across avatars.

Hate-control abilities:
DRG: high jump, super jump
BST: Snarl
PUP: Ventriloquy

Armor
DRG can wear heavy armor not just for melee stats, but also better def.
BST has access to some of them
PUP is mostly cloth and leather class, but can fall back upon its much higher evasion.

so in terms of front-line survivability.. SMN will no doubt end up at the bottom of the 4. maybe you'll only take dmg from AoEs, but that is more than enough to kill you, not to mention the fact that an increasing number of NMs have normal attacks that are AoE already.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

1. SMN as rare as COR? Haha, no. SMN has never, ever been as rare as COR; as I recall, COR has been the least-played job in the game since its release (yes, less played than PUP). The most recent Vana'diel Census that I've seen, 2009, shows twice as many SMNs as CORs.

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That's only because of the fact that SMN burns were used for Kirin

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Originally Posted by Arciel

maybe you'll only take dmg from AoEs, but that is more than enough to kill you

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Funny, in 5 years, this has not magically become true.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Funny, in 5 years, this has not magically become true.

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are you sure you're playing SMN?

I don't think as a SMN i've ever been 1 shotted by an AoE. That seems like a problem for Tarus.

I keep up Stoneskin/Blink/etc at all times when i play, If i get hurt too bad I'll move back.

Particularly dangerous mobs not considered (Ultimas BOOM, etc)

I see it enough on even non-tarus to make me wanna stay permenantly out of range if it can be avoided. Even if it doesn't one shot you it''l probably put you in orange or maybe red health which is still pretty bad

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I don't think as a SMN i've ever been 1 shotted by an AoE. That seems like a problem for Tarus.

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Earthen Armor makes it even less likely that a Taru would be 1-shot. People forget how easy it is to know what you are fighting before you fight it.

Still can't beat staying out of range for safety and it frees up your Blood Pact Ward timer for something more useful to the party than Earthen Armor and even if the party needs it chances are the SMN should probably be no where near the frontline because if the 2k+ HP WAR is in danger of losing massive chunks of life then a SMN could still get owned if unlucky

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I don't think as a SMN i've ever been 1 shotted by an AoE. That seems like a problem for Tarus.

I keep up Stoneskin/Blink/etc at all times when i play, If i get hurt too bad I'll move back.

Particularly dangerous mobs not considered (Ultimas BOOM, etc)

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You should try some of the new NMs out there.. they''re lovely.
Granted its kinda obvious to stay away from them, its when they don't allow you to do so that it hurts really badly, and this has nothing to do with meleeing really, even BPing puts you at risk sometimes.

of course, the likelihood of being 1 shotted by AoEs is pretty low if you aren't fighting anything remotely challenging, as is probably the case for Dallas anyway.

If a WAR can't melee it either, it makes for a really useless argument.

Because of how pet attack works for avatars the solution isn't to keep tossing those stats at smn razushu but to add higher base stats.

Fenrir for example has a bit above 450att but hits IT like a girl, right? If they would give us gear like haste, Pet: +20str or 30dmg, and bigger mab numbers than 2 or 1 on random gear parts then our avatars would be able to do something. Until SE says 'Ok, all these blm avatars with melee BPs need an overhaul' nothing will happen.

The problem in the past was that SE had smn as a hate free job so there was a trade off. Now that pally has a higher hate cap, blm has enmity douse, and other DDs gain tp faster and hit harder and support classes has access to spells that we can't even get a hold of bar 'standard' buffs we remain in the dust until they decide to give avatars more hp/stats (i feel like my pets have less hp than i do) or change the BP timer to come in line with today's battle standards.

There's no way they're scared we'd run out of mp lol... also please SE... take smn damage seriously. AF32+2 body should have 30% damage increase instead of a small number since we don't all sit in abyssea all day.

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Originally Posted by Fyreus

AF3+2 body should have 30% damage increase instead of a small number since we don't all sit in abyssea all day.

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I just trioed Nyzul with THF, RDM (healer), SMN. There's nothing wrong with our damage outside of Abyssea.

Inferno howl is a really nice BP ward 44 dmg enfire outside abyssea is amazing to jobs like MNK especially when using hundred fists

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Originally Posted by Dallas

If a WAR can't melee it either, it makes for a really useless argument.

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I never said a 2k+ HP WAR couldn't melee I said if something with that kind of HP can take enough damage to make Earthen armor a necessity or even jsut a good idea what does a <1k HP SMN doing whacking the mob with a stick

I don't think anyone but Galkas have 2k+ HP Outside of Abyssea, and even then just the MNKs, and maybe PLDs or WARs.

But i understand what you're saying. Also, on SMN Melee debate, I think Dallas is probably smart enough to know what NMs to stand back on, and what NMs to melee on.

Also that there are probably few mobs that would risk 1-shotting a SMN with Stoneskin and Earthern Armor up.

Also @ Cahlum: Yes, Ifrits new BP is really good, I just wish there was a way to enhance its Magic Accuracy :(.

Edit: Does adding Skill past cap increase Magic Accuracy of Added Effects on BP:Wards?

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

But i understand what you're saying. Also, on SMN Melee debate, I think Dallas is probably smart enough to know what NMs to stand back on, and what NMs to melee on.

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I would hope so and this is probably true but the way he advocates it and the language he uses gives the very strong impression that he's saying "Melee or GTFO urdoinitwrong!"

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Also that there are probably few mobs that would risk 1-shotting a SMN with Stoneskin and Earthern Armor up.

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True but most of the time an NM will still hit a SMN hard enough with Stoneskin on to make them regret being in range. I've been rare though it is 1-shot by mobs with a full stoneskin and full health before so it does happen. Admittedly I'm a Taru but What would 1-shot a Taru SMN would leave a Galka SMN in low orange to red probably which is still undesirable. Earthen Armor is a waste of a Ward if your the only one that needs it and if the melees need it for the party to be successful this is probably not a NM that is SMN melee friendly.

It seems to me that part of the very versatility enjoyed by SMN and mentioned on every summoner argument thread is the thorn in the side of those evokers who want to approximate other jobs in performance. How best to buff a job that has access to almost all buffs in the game, most of the cures, most of the nukes, etc? Could it be that SE sweats this as well but knows how quickly things could go overboard?

I'm not a summoner, so I don't know what I'm talking about, but had a couple ideas I was flirting with, Stances and Specialization.

You can make the argument that each individual summon (be it spirit or avatar) is its own stance, because it excludes abilities not inherent to that pet. Still, summoners can switch between them rather quickly, losing little but the Avatar's Favor effect - which as mentioned is a bit of a mess of popular vs unpopular buffs. Why not put more emphasis on the summoner? Give 'em a set of heavy-recast "stances" that would focus their summons but make them more limited in other areas. Of course, this would be stealing the entire job concept of the Scholar~

As long as we're borrowing from other jobs, how about a wild re-envisioning akin to Blue Magic points wherein a growing summoner can specialize into particular roles or affinity with their avatars? Imagine: 1 Evocation Concentration point for every 10 points in Summoning skill. A whole category of Merit Category 1 type boosts. Become the Spirit Master by lowering their recast timer and boosting their spell potency! Ravage your enemies with combat avatars pumped up with extra haste and double attack! Put on a funny hat and pretend to be a white mage by boosting potency of defensive buffs and avatar cures!

Actually, that sounds like a lot of fun, for at least the first month until someone figures out the 'right' way to spec and everyone follows that. Guess it's an MMO, can't be helped. Thoughts?

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meh. not entirely correct but not exactly wrong. only light spirit comes with different modes, for which its buffing mode is indeed 1/2 its regular casting time. light spirit also has its unique healing mode triggered by low hp. and you can direct who you want light spirit to buff (in buff mode) by facing it at any alliance members.
using assault/retreat simply resets the timer, and this is something you can actually use to your advantage when they start casting AM because you can prematurely reset it before the spell actually casts.

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My theory is actually impossible to prove wrong. But there are other theories that work just as well, they are just not as logical.

If you summon a fresh spirit and catch aggro, they'll cast in exactly half time. This means that either you summon spirits in offensive mode at half initial recast, or they are summoned in buff mode with max recast. There is no reason SE would set "create new spirit with half timer" as code, opposed to the likelihood they put it as "create new spirit with max timer". Considering elemental behavior is buff mode or attack mode, all evidence point at similar for spirits.

You can also retreat a non-light spirit, then claim a monster to trigger aggro protection, and see if it takes half or full time to attack. If it resets their only attack recast, it will be full time. If they are in fact in buff mode as I predict, they'd cast in half time. (I believe I tested this, but I forgot so can't claim this as true)

Another option is to wait 10 seconds after your light spirit buffs you, and claim a monster. Light spirit should cast a nuke within the same time span as he would if you had let him stay and buff you. It's timer is the buff timer until it has cast one spell or is told to assault.

Everything about this behavior fits with my theory. But I will admit that you can make up excuses that could also be true. Like pets being summoned with half their casting time (except light spirit which is summoned in buff mode with full? seems like random programming in that case, instead of a logical one)

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I just trioed Nyzul with THF, RDM (healer), SMN. There's nothing wrong with our damage outside of Abyssea.

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Using the word 'damage' is a bit vague when dealing with you :/ I'm talking about avatars (hence the AF3+2 body reference) and not beating up somewhat EP mobs. If i were to compare smn+avatar damage to my blu or drk or even rng then we'd be debating punch buggys to G4s but i'm talking about the steady damage over time, healing over time, and buff boosts that are slightly outside of our reach. No i'm not being mean or attacking but the fact is our avatars are all blm except for 1 and he's not wearing any +str/dmg.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

My theory is actually impossible to prove wrong. But there are other theories that work just as well, they are just not as logical.

If you summon a fresh spirit and catch aggro, they'll cast in exactly half time. This means that either you summon spirits in offensive mode at half initial recast, or they are summoned in buff mode with max recast. There is no reason SE would set "create new spirit with half timer" as code, opposed to the likelihood they put it as "create new spirit with max timer". Considering elemental behavior is buff mode or attack mode, all evidence point at similar for spirits.

You can also retreat a non-light spirit, then claim a monster to trigger aggro protection, and see if it takes half or full time to attack. If it resets their only attack recast, it will be full time. If they are in fact in buff mode as I predict, they'd cast in half time. (I believe I tested this, but I forgot so can't claim this as true)

Another option is to wait 10 seconds after your light spirit buffs you, and claim a monster. Light spirit should cast a nuke within the same time span as he would if you had let him stay and buff you. It's timer is the buff timer until it has cast one spell or is told to assault.

Everything about this behavior fits with my theory. But I will admit that you can make up excuses that could also be true. Like pets being summoned with half their casting time (except light spirit which is summoned in buff mode with full? seems like random programming in that case, instead of a logical one)

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hence my statement that it is neither correct nor wrong.
we both understand them to work in pretty much the exact same way but choose to express this in different terms.

the one consensus we can come together upon is probably the fact that whether it be your theory or mine, both prove that spirits are outdated in spell repertoire, unreliable by design and can be very random (esp water/wind/dark), making them nigh useless in a SMNs arsenal.

At present, apart from Light Spirit which can be used to crank out a few buffs in the absence of RDM/WHM/SCH, all other spirits serve no real purpose to players other than for Elemental Siphon, and in desperation for 2 spells within the elemental wheel capable of proccing grellow.

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Originally Posted by Fyreus

Using the word 'damage' is a bit vague when dealing with you :/ I'm talking about avatars (hence the AF3+2 body reference) and not beating up somewhat EP mobs. If i were to compare smn+avatar damage to my blu or drk or even rng then we'd be debating punch buggys to G4s but i'm talking about the steady damage over time, healing over time, and buff boosts that are slightly outside of our reach. No i'm not being mean or attacking but the fact is our avatars are all blm except for 1 and he's not wearing any +str/dmg.

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When I talk damage, I'm talking about every action that results in reducing the HP of the mob. Nothing at all vague about that. There are 4 sources of damage: avatar melee, avatar BPs, avatar buffs, SMN melee. If you don't melee with SMN, put a big 0 there. If you think your avatar is a weak BLM, put a big 0 on both avatar melee and buffs. Your choices make your damage tiny and insignificant.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Isn't Dallas the melee SMN or GTFO guy? I don't think anybody needs to mention melee tools to get him talking about it

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Notice your post has no likes and the OPs has 9.

You make solid points, but theyre not very good ones.
Summoner is a weak job and always has been. Idk if youve played as long as me, but for the first 3-4 years it was basically just a gimp whm with pred claws. It's changed a lot since then, but this job is not a solid one. SMNs are only semi-ok at everything and that's a problem imo.

Idk what parties you play in these days, but smn buffs imo are prett much lol and you would be better off coming another job if thats your main focus. If your main focus is dd, ud also be better off coming a dd job. This is true for other jobs, but smn is probably the worst job at being OK at everything (cures,buffs,dd). It's trumped by every job it can assist in and so much in such a way that playing smn outside duo/trio type situations when you have other jobs is pretty much a strain.


This job needs an extreme decrease n bp timer or to remove it entirely. I think bp timers should either be 10-15seconds MAX or nothing at all. That would really make the job damn good and without gamebreaking. Why? Because the bps are so mp costly, outside abyssea. smns will actually have to worry about mp conservment with lower/no timers.

You're right about some things, but you're giving smn way too much credit and i'd bet you don't play it often or at all.

just my two cents, cause no one who is a career smn or loves playing smn in party situations would share this opinion. This job needs change. Badly.

My SMN was/is useless in party or serious situations.

Don't get it twisted, SMN is amazing for duo/trio/solo. There is no doubt in that, but the job is incredibly lackluster if you have any other jobs and you're playing in partty situations. I had RDM,WHM,BLM,BRD 90.. If my pt need buffs, ill come RDM OR BRD. If they need heals, WHM sup. If they need DD... BLM FTW. SMN can do most of these things but not nearly good enough to warrant playing it for versatility if you have the other job counter parts. In factm i recall saying in LS i'd come smn a few times and people would lol and say they didnt care. Reason is, smn is kinda a joke job in groups.


Not saying SMN should be turned into a full on dd or buffer/healer, just the bp timer needs to GTFO. I dont think ittle break the job or the game. If you're gonna spam bps, ull run outta mp hella quick even in abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Anewie

Notice your post has no likes and the OPs has 9.

You make solid points, but theyre not very good ones.
Summoner is a weak job and always has been. Idk if youve played as long as me, but for the first 3-4 years it was basically just a gimp whm with pred claws. It's changed a lot since then, but this job is not a solid one. SMNs are only semi-ok at everything and that's a problem imo.

Idk what parties you play in these days, but smn buffs imo are prett much lol and you would be better off coming another job if thats your main focus. If your main focus is dd, ud also be better off coming a dd job. This is true for other jobs, but smn is probably the worst job at being OK at everything (cures,buffs,dd). It's trumped by every job it can assist in and so much in such a way that playing smn outside duo/trio type situations when you have other jobs is pretty much a strain.


This job needs an extreme decrease n bp timer or to remove it entirely. I think bp timers should either be 10-15seconds MAX or nothing at all. That would really make the job damn good and without gamebreaking. Why? Because the bps are so mp costly, outside abyssea. smns will actually have to worry about mp conservment with lower/no timers.

You're right about some things, but you're giving smn way too much credit and i'd bet you don't play it often or at all.

just my two cents, cause no one who is a career smn or loves playing smn in party situations would share this opinion. This job needs change. Badly.

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SMN is my main, my only 90 and the thing I do best in this game lol.

you whooshed me with the likes thing the OP addresses several issues with SMN which was always gonna get likes and I'm debating that melee SMN isn't the best way to play SMN.

SMN is far from a weak job we're in need of a boost definitely but if you care about the job it can be a great asset to the party we're something rare in ffxi we're an allrounder job that can do anything ok and can fill more than one role that a time while being autonomous within the party i.e we're a spike DD that the tank doesn't need to cover and the WHM will never need to heal if we're being careful.

SMN buffs may be lol in your opinion but it's hard to argue with a 5 minute AoE haste for a quite low price if 3+ people get it and thats just for starters. SMN works best if you don't have a main focus if I'm in a party I'm PCing every 45 seconds keeping hastega up fulltime and adding as many buffs as I can manage and keeping them up as much as possible. Top this off with the utility of /SCH, I find myself DDing Buffing filling in gaps that form in the party i.e sleeping adds if blm is mid cast helping remove Debuffs or waking slept pt members(accession FTW) seeing how my SMN is immune to sleep unless sublimation is down or fully charged or my avatar dies as i run in to BP and a sleepga goes off(which is rare).
Sure we don't add as much damage as a WAR or as good buffs as a BRD but we can do both at the same time and hate free and we still have some free time to assist anywhere it's needed.

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My SMN was/is useless in party or serious situations.

Don't get it twisted, SMN is amazing for duo/trio/solo. There is no doubt in that, but the job is incredibly lackluster if you have any other jobs and you're playing in partty situations. I had RDM,WHM,BLM,BRD 90.. If my pt need buffs, ill come RDM OR BRD. If they need heals, WHM sup. If they need DD... BLM FTW. SMN can do most of these things but not nearly good enough to warrant playing it for versatility if you have the other job counter parts. In factm i recall saying in LS i'd come smn a few times and people would lol and say they didnt care. Reason is, smn is kinda a joke job in groups.

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True SMN can shine extremely brightly solo or lowman because SMN is an allrounder and isn't buff dependant to perform well. But if you start buffing a party as well as DDing you're already adding alot to the party. I've haven't found my SMN lacking in contribution since I hit level 75. SMN does everything well not as good as a specialist but good enough to earn my place at the table been a SMN for 3years now and never heard the phrase "lolsmn" in reference to me. A good SMN can bring alot to a group and versatility is our strength. I may not nuke as hard as a BLM but I'm buffing at the same time, I may not Buff as well as a BRD but I'm nuking at the same time and while I can't touch WHM for healing power I'm nuking and Buffing while I'm support healing.

I agree with you 100% that BP delay needs a big change it would make SMN much more efficient and something 30 would be great but not Over Powered.

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Originally Posted by Anewie

My SMN was/is useless in party or serious situations.

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Reason is, smn is kinda a joke job in groups.

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This post is a pretty good example of how misunderstood SMN is. When I've gone on SMN, it has always been benificial too the group--whether it's a duo, all the way up to an alliance. I remember when we were first farming the caturea (sp), many times it was the avatar keeping the bleeding thing busy while the "tanks" were recovering from weakness. When fighting a lot of NM's, it is the avatars taking a beating while the rest of the group is recovering from a serious beating (sometimes even a full wipe). When it has been club or staff for proc, more often than not, it has been the SMN that got it. When we are needing to get TE's, I am often the one running around and grabbing/holding ephemerals for the mages to get magic kill (or I simply kill them if we want to boost pearl. If we were after KI/feet....I'd amber kill them with my staff.

And that's just abyssea. There are sooooo many examples where the SMN has secured the win--CoP, TAU, ACP, BCNM's.....there is a LONG list of strategies where SMN has been a proven asset.

agreed. SMN is hardly a joke job in groups. If may only appear this way because most strats prefer to avoid incorporating SMN into the strat because of its biggest weakness - speed.

SMN can do most anything with proper consideration of strategy, but it can be hella slow - and most players would want to maximize their time in game and get things done faster. They thus don't apply SMN into the mix unless they have to.
However, as slow as it may be, the SMN approach can also end up being the safest, which is why you have all sorts of strategies that utilize SMN for its safety and success rate as mentioned above.

as such, if anything were to really improve or 'fix' SMN from its current state into greater playability, it'd have everything to do with the BP timer, because its really the only thing that is holding us back.

my suggestions:

1) reduce the default BP recast. Base of 45s would probably be a good enough adjustment, if we consider that BP reduction gear can lower this (if we use the existing numeric value cap) to 30s.
For greater effect, could even do with a base of 30s, with gear able to lower this to 15s. This would move SMN damage speed into a totally different range, which is actually fine since it won't be sustainable with limited MP pools.

OR

2) have BP recast vary according to the BP being used.
They could set this as a static value (like say Claw on Garuda giving BP: Rage a 10s recast if its used, but P.Claws giving a 45s recast) - this system is already used for Waltzes.
OR they could set this as a dynamic value based on the relative level that the BP is obtained and the current level of the player, especially for Rage BPs. Like say every 5 levels above a BP you are gives you a reduction of 5 seconds from the BP recast until you hit a base of 5seconds. (so in such a case, lv70 BP would be 40s for Lv90, 35 seconds for Lv95, before taking into account gear). Astral Flow BPs could always be capped at maximum timer to prevent abuse (need MP anyway).

OR

3) a mixture of both. Have base timer at like 45s, implement dynamic recast timers - allow players to be able to mix up using lower damage BPs more frequently or higher damage ones less frequently. Either way would be faster than it already is and it'd be up to the SMN to manage his own MP before it runs out.
Dynamic recast timers doesn't have to affect Ward BPs because the timers on those are actually fine as is, and effectiveness of ward pacts doesn't follow the same usability relationship that rage BPs have in proportion to level.

..this way it doesn't exactly change what we can do, because what we can do is fine. but how fast we can do it would be vastly improved.

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2) have BP recast vary according to the BP being used.

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I've been kind of into this before, since it, with good numbers, would mean things like use healing ruby, wait 10 seconds on recast, then use meteor, wait 30 seconds, swap to Garuda and do predator claws and wait 45 seconds etc.

I think this is the only suggestion that keeps a global timer that could work. In all other cases it will just be a direct DD boost, and that is like saying "All jobs needs to do 9999 damage before balance is achieved". I prefer SMN being weaker, but it should be more versatile with its pact selection.

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Dynamic recast timers doesn't have to affect Ward BPs because the timers on those are actually fine as is, and effectiveness of ward pacts doesn't follow the same usability relationship that rage BPs have in proportion to level.

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Obviously you never use dispel or slowga. Those are two pacts that due to their long global recast are never used. Wards would also need specialized recasts. Like dispel really should be 5 seconds recast on Fenrir.

I'm sure the wards you think are fine, are the ones that are fine and you are using. Hastega, Earthen Armor and such. But we do have plenty pacts we don't use just because they aren't fine.

Speaking of recasts on global timers though, I've always wondered why SE gave only SMN a global spell timer. COR came close with a global roll timer and a global quick draw timer. But paying 0 MP to buff and only being able to put up 2 buffs it didn't really matter so much with having a global recast on it. Quick Draw would be the odd one, considering NIN can elemental wheel rotate for gil, but CORs can't.

In a similar fashion I would have almost expected BLU to have global recasts also. You learn some pretty strong moves, and you are a melee job, and yet they got the spells on separate timers. If you change spells though, I hear you have a long cool down on all of them.

But for example, why can BLU spam head butt for stun, but SMN can't spam Ramuh's low level shock strike? The only difference is hate to pet or hate to BLU. So one has to assume the reason we have global recast is because hate goes to the pets.... but can you really claim it such a huge advantage to get hate for 75 damage to the avatar for shock strike, that it warrants a 60 sec global recast?

If you ask me personally, global recasts don't even need to exist until like level 50+ when one in theory could spam 400 damage pacts. And even if you give those moderate recast (maybe 20 sec?) it wouldn't be all that massive damage hate free anyway.

As far as I can see, the only reason global recast even exists, is that SE thought it was a funny gimmick that would be fresh and new to the game. If only they had taken a moment to consider if it would be fun playing with it.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Obviously you never use dispel or slowga. Those are two pacts that due to their long global recast are never used. Wards would also need specialized recasts. Like dispel really should be 5 seconds recast on Fenrir.

I'm sure the wards you think are fine, are the ones that are fine and you are using. Hastega, Earthen Armor and such. But we do have plenty pacts we don't use just because they aren't fine.

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And this is obvious how?

A lot more ward BPs are fine on the current timer than they aren't. I just mentioned they probably don't need tweaking because trying to figure out suitable recasts on them wasn't really worth the time hypothesizing just for a suggestion.
5 second recast on Fenrir's Roar would be useful yes, but 5 second recast on Healing Ruby 1 is pretty broken. Also there are other prevailing reasons than global recasts that they aren't being used.
As a simple yardstick ward debuffs could probably use timer reductions, ward buffs don't need it.

But its just a suggestion anyway, no need to get your panties in a twist about it.

..as for global timers, SMN isn't the only job stuck with global timers, but is the only one to mainly rely on 2 of them.
COR is next in line, PUP mage automatons suffer the same fate, DNC have a bunch of global timers that they are made to work with...

but mainly, SMNs original single global timer was the result of bad design and a relic of a past where the devs knew almost absolutely nothing about MMORPG game balance - this wasn't too long ago from when BST Charm was 5minutes (and crits could uncharm pets), Astral Flow lasted like 30s and didn't reduce perp to 0, the standard set of avatars couldn't be obtained unless you had a lv50+ job, avatar acc/m.acc was worthless, etc.

Can't say the job hasn't come a long way since, but in terms of speed its definitely fallen behind even further now

Know what we could use? +stats transfer to pets.

Wyverns have it and it wouldn't be hard to code in (it's already there lol) and would allow a smn to further enhance the way avatars work no matter what they are doing. It makes use of many things like some haste, mab, acc, str and such stats you can't get on certain avatars. If you are smart or use common sense then you benefit from this or suffer if you want to really equip terrible stuff. That and syphoon avatar mp since it does absolutely nothing in game.

Who in the world would really hate stat transfers?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

When I talk damage, I'm talking about every action that results in reducing the HP of the mob. Nothing at all vague about that. There are 4 sources of damage: avatar melee, avatar BPs, avatar buffs, SMN melee. If you don't melee with SMN, put a big 0 there. If you think your avatar is a weak BLM, put a big 0 on both avatar melee and buffs. Your choices make your damage tiny and insignificant.

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I understand you try your hardest to justify obtaining an emperyean and i won't knock you for that, but you are fighting 'safe' mobs or things that won't kick a party's butt. Fact. I'm talking about the last few mobs left that require effort even in a small man. What exactly are you fighting anyway? Show me some pics

I think if people wanted drastic changes to SMN they might have to accept other tweaks to the job. Compared to other pet jobs excluding BST to a point they have a limitless amount of drones they can toss at a mob without fear of death for the most part. In group settings they provide a safe way to dish out heavy damage without putting their own life on the line. With BST they have the same instance granted the recast timer on call beast.

I think that if people wanted a big change to SMN that would make them more diverse and useable SE would have to add a "summoner fatigue" that prevented them for summoning an avatar for a certain amount of time based on certain aspects. Before you huff and puff over this tweak basically what I"m getting at is summoner as it stands is a formidable tool with the ability to dish out a decent amount of damage with little hassle, only a BP recast timer which can be lowered.

However with this "summoner fatigue" in mind the idea would be to add a range of abilities that could be used to act as more of a support class. If anything perhaps give the option through a JA called "Astral Focus" which allows the user to be more attune with the next summoned avatar however they will be unable to call another avatar for 10 minutes. While "Astral Focus" is in effect the perp cost starts at 0 however they do not have any of their BP accessed for use. Instead the SMN uses Rituals to enhance the avatar as well as start the perp cost timer.
Say you have Garuda out with Astral Focus, you would gain access to the following magic spells:
"Flow of Wind" Haste aura. (can be cast from 1-6 times based on smn skill) 1/3/5/7/9/11 20 MP +1 perp per cast
"Wind Barrier" Wind resist aura (can cast 1-6 times) 15/30/45/60/75/100 20 mp +1 perp
"Wind Slicer" aura (deal extra dmg to enemies weak to wind element) 50 mp +5 perp
"Swift Step" AGI aura (cast 1-6 times) 15 mp +1 perp
"Sway" Evasion aura (cast 1-6 times) 30 mp +2 perp

So basically SMN would be given the option to play the old way or use "Astral Focus" and play more of a support role to the party. However their support would be limited by the fact they can only choose 1 avatar every 10 minutes. It's just even though SMN may have a hard time finding it's proper place, you can't deny that it does serve a purpose in terms of dealing dmg and allowinga method of solo play that other jobs can't do without risk of their life. While it may take them longer to kill foes solo, in a group setting it's pretty much carnage as the mob is ripped to shreds with an unlimited amount of disposable soldiers.

Overall though I wouldn't mind seeing SMN take a more defined role, while it's ability to dish out heavy dmg and absorb dmg taken to extent it would be nice they could serve a bigger purpose then a sacrificial meatshield.

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Originally Posted by Airget

I think if people wanted drastic changes to SMN they might have to accept other tweaks to the job. Compared to other pet jobs excluding BST to a point they have a limitless amount of drones they can toss at a mob without fear of death for the most part. In group settings they provide a safe way to dish out heavy damage without putting their own life on the line. With BST they have the same instance granted the recast timer on call beast.

I think that if people wanted a big change to SMN that would make them more diverse and useable SE would have to add a "summoner fatigue" that prevented them for summoning an avatar for a certain amount of time based on certain aspects. Before you huff and puff over this tweak basically what I"m getting at is summoner as it stands is a formidable tool with the ability to dish out a decent amount of damage with little hassle, only a BP recast timer which can be lowered.

However with this "summoner fatigue" in mind the idea would be to add a range of abilities that could be used to act as more of a support class. If anything perhaps give the option through a JA called "Astral Focus" which allows the user to be more attune with the next summoned avatar however they will be unable to call another avatar for 10 minutes. While "Astral Focus" is in effect the perp cost starts at 0 however they do not have any of their BP accessed for use. Instead the SMN uses Rituals to enhance the avatar as well as start the perp cost timer.
Say you have Garuda out with Astral Focus, you would gain access to the following magic spells:
"Flow of Wind" Haste aura. (can be cast from 1-6 times based on smn skill) 1/3/5/7/9/11 20 MP +1 perp per cast
"Wind Barrier" Wind resist aura (can cast 1-6 times) 15/30/45/60/75/100 20 mp +1 perp
"Wind Slicer" aura (deal extra dmg to enemies weak to wind element) 50 mp +5 perp
"Swift Step" AGI aura (cast 1-6 times) 15 mp +1 perp
"Sway" Evasion aura (cast 1-6 times) 30 mp +2 perp

So basically SMN would be given the option to play the old way or use "Astral Focus" and play more of a support role to the party. However their support would be limited by the fact they can only choose 1 avatar every 10 minutes. It's just even though SMN may have a hard time finding it's proper place, you can't deny that it does serve a purpose in terms of dealing dmg and allowinga method of solo play that other jobs can't do without risk of their life. While it may take them longer to kill foes solo, in a group setting it's pretty much carnage as the mob is ripped to shreds with an unlimited amount of disposable soldiers.

Overall though I wouldn't mind seeing SMN take a more defined role, while it's ability to dish out heavy dmg and absorb dmg taken to extent it would be nice they could serve a bigger purpose then a sacrificial meatshield.

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I like your idea its very good, but 10 minutes without a pet is far too steep for a job that is almost completely dependant to contribute. maybe just have the ability on a 10 minute recast and have it wear upon avatar release/death

I had a similar Idea in another thread, but it was more about boosting avatar damage capablities

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Originally Posted by Raz

Infused Summoning

recast 5 minutes
duration 2hrs or avatar death

Summoner sacrifices health to empower currently summoned

drains 25hp per tick from summoner

grants following bonuses to avatar:
Blood pact Damage +20%
Melee damage +50%
regen +20
Haste +20%

grants Summoner the following bonuses:
Blood Boon +10
BP delay -10 passes cap

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my only complaint with summoner is the extremely low durability of avatars in abyssea, how horribly low astral flow damage is in comparison to all other 70+ BPs, and the 15 second cap on BP reduction gear, should be 30 second cap if anything. i have no qualms with my damage output, i do 5-6k every heavenly strike, so im quite happy.

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Originally Posted by hideka

my only complaint with summoner is the extremely low durability of avatars in abyssea, how horribly low astral flow damage is in comparison to all other 70+ BPs, and the 15 second cap on BP reduction gear, should be 30 second cap if anything. i have no qualms with my damage output, i do 5-6k every heavenly strike, so im quite happy.

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Funnily enough on Abyssea I Find Diamond Dust equal to Heavenly Strike. I had great fun killing 10+ Sheep at a time in AbY la theine for shiva magian trial