Reviving PvP & Ballista

BLU isn't as nearly as good as you think, and RDM can be circumvented by gear combinations and setups to resist key enfeebles.


'PvE People' are often just as if not more competitive than PvP people, they just go about doing it in the most ass-backward way possible, competing within team events to be better than everyone else or DO MOAR DEEPS.

What I don't understand is why they lie to themselves about being competitive whe you see the most disgusting forms of competitive jealousy pop out amongst competing HNM shells.

Not to say that PvP people don't do that it certainly happens but its really funny to see PvE people for a second claim they aren't competitive.

So the only difference is, why be competitive about 'helping each-other', and then say being competitive about killing the other isn't out of the ordinary, and foreign to you.

"Your gear sucks, mine is better." Or "This guy sucks because he uses this instead of this."

Thats competition, you all breathe it, and eat it, and live it. So why not drop your nuts and just smack the shit out of each other, since the animosity and ego is already there.

And FYI every Final Fantasy game is about you trying to kill X guy, for about 3 discs, then you find out he's really Y and you have to use A B and C to kick his ass.

PvP.

The fastest way to get people interested again is to do the following:
- Create a set of accessories for back, neck, waist, rings and earrings that have pretty damn good stats where you can use balista points to acquire.
- Let seals or key items to pop NM dropped from the crate if you won or did certain amount of damages.
- A way to obtain dyna money via Ballista

Those 3 changes will make PvP and Ballista extremely popular :)

Yes blu is as good as I think. So is rdm, Resist won't do crap unless you have a crappy rdm.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Yes blu is as good as I think. So is rdm, Resist won't do crap unless you have a crappy rdm.

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COR can destroy a RDM.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

The fastest way to get people interested again is to do the following:
- Create a set of accessories for back, neck, waist, rings and earrings that have pretty damn good stats where you can use balista points to acquire.
- Let seals or key items to pop NM dropped from the crate if you won or did certain amount of damages.
- A way to obtain dyna money via Ballista

Those 3 changes will make PvP and Ballista extremely popular :)

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Maybe adding something similar to Campaign Treasure Caskets would be alright... But this just seems like you're asking for more "Abyssea-like" content, something that does not need to be in PvP. What does need to happen, is PvP content that is easy and accessible. Something that holds the grip and interest of PvP'ers.

Also EXP and Gil from Ballista and Brenner is a good idea. Currently you have to PAY to enter Ballista and Brenner, which makes no sense at all. PvP shouldn't be frowned upon as such a negative thing from SE, it's a HUGE part of MMO's and making it interesting in FFXI (and possibily FFXIV) would do them alot of good.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

I don't understand why really. All In all you would just have to think more carefully about what kind of equipment you would wear full time, and you can still switch gear. You just get a penalty (a 10 second self stun effect), but if you're out of danger and you know there's like a BLM or someone that Sleeps you alot, you can equip an Opo-Opo necklace to get some TP while slept. Or something like an Insomnia Earring and +Darkness Resist for some resist sleep equipment.

PvP has alot of strategy to it. Personally I think the dynamics involved are overwhelming, but the Fun Factor is SO worth it.

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I agree with Habiki tho.
The (10 second self stun effect) does ruin the pvp experience a lot.
At least for me it does. That is one of the reasons why I dislike current PVP system.
A lot needs changing.
Make Pvp a long fighting system but a fun fighting system without retarded restrictions is what I want. lol

Fun doesn't equal up to annoying "Restrictions".

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Originally Posted by Arlan

Fun doesn't equal up to annoying "Restrictions".

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People have to realize why some restrictions are in place. Some restrictions are annoying, but others make sense. Restricting constant gear swapping makes sense, because the person targeting someone who swaps gear, loses that target. I said this in an earlier post, that people would swap gear just for the advantage of being untargetable.

Lowering the penalty time to 5 seconds seems better, but getting rid of the gear swap penalty would just be worse in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

People have to realize why some restrictions are in place. Some restrictions are annoying, but others make sense. Restricting constant gear swapping makes sense, because the person targeting someone who swaps gear, loses that target. I said this in an earlier post, that people would swap gear just for the advantage of being untargetable.

Lowering the penalty time to 5 seconds seems better, but getting rid of the gear swap penalty would just be worse in the long run.

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And as well Ballista is a sport and as with all sports it has rules.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

People have to realize why some restrictions are in place. Some restrictions are annoying, but others make sense. Restricting constant gear swapping makes sense, because the person targeting someone who swaps gear, loses that target. I said this in an earlier post, that people would swap gear just for the advantage of being untargetable.

Lowering the penalty time to 5 seconds seems better, but getting rid of the gear swap penalty would just be worse in the long run.

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Ok That makes sense since you put it "That way",
But 10 seconds stun is waaaaaaaaay to long for gear switching.
If anything, it should be 3 seconds stun penalty.
Cause my gear is macred on certain abilities so it ruins the fun entirely when I for example:
Use Jump Macro As DRG, and I change gear for jumping mode before I jump.
See, I get stunned when I use jump instead of jumping..
That alone ruins the fun, so even tho you lose target by switching gear, there must be a solution to this problem rather than "Restricting" it....

I think its the FFXI mechanics in switching gear in general is broken...
If they fixed that where you don't lose target when a player switches gear, a lot of things in ffxi would be solved.
Specially for mages who want to cast cure spells or buffs on other players lol

I'm a WHM I know... I have a hard time keeping people alive when they switch gear.
Who knows, maybe they can fix it but choose not to spend the money there? idk?

All that gear swapping nonsense can stay in PvE where it belongs. It's really not hard to put together a solid build based around your job/enemy team's jobs or to quickly write some ballista macros.

Gear-swapping should not be frowned upon in PVP. It's been a key game mechanic in FFXI since its inception. A penalty (as I already mentioned, a 3 second bind effect should be more than enough) need to be in place to prevent people from abusing it while running away. That said, S-E could easily promote static sets of armor by instating caps on stats, attack, accuracy, m.acc, m.atk, evasion, etc while inside ballista.

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Originally Posted by Hotsume

All that gear swapping nonsense can stay in PvE where it belongs. It's really not hard to put together a solid build based around your job/enemy team's jobs or to quickly write some ballista macros.

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Most likely if the restriction stays in place noone will do it except for the people posting they think the restriction should stay, atleast there should be an option to turn gear swapping on or off inside PVP areas.

Id enjoy if the game went full PVP everywhere except towns. Would breathe life and skill back into the player base.

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Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung

Id enjoy if the game went full PVP everywhere except towns. Would breathe life and skill back into the player base.

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Maybe.

But I think it would more likely drive away a large number of players that are not simply uninterested but actively disinterested in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Habiki

Most likely if the restriction stays in place noone will do it except for the people posting they think the restriction should stay, atleast there should be an option to turn gear swapping on or off inside PVP areas.

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I really don't think a gear swap penalty is what's preventing people from PvPing. XI's community for the most part seems very against any form of PvP to begin with. Why would the ability to gearswap for every spell/JA/WS/emote/whatever stop you from enjoying ballista?

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Originally Posted by Hotsume

I really don't think a gear swap penalty is what's preventing people from PvPing. XI's community for the most part seems very against any form of PvP to begin with. Why would the ability to gearswap for every spell/JA/WS/emote/whatever stop you from enjoying ballista?

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The reason it stopped me from enjoying Ballista is because I can't play my jobs as effectively as I can outside. I don't like being constrained to a single set of gear, no one does it outside PvP, so why be constrained to it inside. Granted the whole lose target thing sucks, but there are more ways to deal with that than just removing an essential part of the game itself.

Random: Currently, I think if you are attacking someone in Ballista and they switch gear, you only lose lock-on. Not 100% as I haven't played seriously since 07.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Yes blu is as good as I think. So is rdm, Resist won't do crap unless you have a crappy rdm.

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Resist traits do a lot, around 10% chance to resist per tier. In addition to making the duration last way shorter, in ballista resistances are greatly enhanced.

A BLU can only hit a target with its most powerful spells if they are CC'd, /sch is a very powerful tool against BLU on many jobs, SAM, DRK, ...MNK even.

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Originally Posted by Hotsume

I really don't think a gear swap penalty is what's preventing people from PvPing. XI's community for the most part seems very against any form of PvP to begin with. Why would the ability to gearswap for every spell/JA/WS/emote/whatever stop you from enjoying ballista?

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Its because the community is dwindling down to housewives and weenies, and is quite honestly the biggest bunch of sissies I've ever seen.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

Its because the community is dwindling down to housewives and weenies, and is quite honestly the biggest bunch of sissies I've ever seen.

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Love this post <3

I have recently started a PvP LinkShell on Asura, and we've been doing some 3v3 Ballista, Brenner and Diorama lately. It's been quite fun and I ask any of you who are interested and on the Asura server, to send a /tell to Shinjima in game if you're interested in a linkpearl.


On another note, I see that they are working on revisions to Campaign and Nyzul Isle, and would like to therefore ask the Dev team if they could give a response to the chances of an update for the current PvP system. If you could let all us Ballista/Brenner fans out there know if it's possible that there may or may not be a future update to these events, that would be great.

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Originally Posted by Camate

I'm sure you'll be glad to hear that just as the dev. team is planning adjustments to Campaign and other content, both Nyzul Isle and the Assault system itself will be seeing changes in the future! While there aren't plans set in stone yet, they plan on handling adjustments in the order that the community speaks the loudest about (so keep that feedback coming!).

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I love the idea of adjustments to Campaign and Nyzul, and am looking forward to them, and it's great to see that the Dev team is posting more replies to our idea's and suggestions, so thank you for that Camate and friends~

Also, I encourage everyone who enjoyed Ballista/Brenner to give more feedback to this thread. Doing so could possibly see the changes we would like to see in PvP, such as ease of access and better rewards. If you loved doing Ballista or Brenner, and would like to see it make a come back, please post with more idea's on how to revive it^^.

Thanks guys and take care.

I've always loved Ballista and PvP on FFXI in general. It is my personal belief that there is nothing directly wrong with the system. Yes, the inability to swap gear seems like a drawback, but it also creates another "challenge" (although not so challenging) to build the perfect equip sets based on the situation of each team. IE: What jobs are on either team, and how skilled at Ballista the participants are.

My only wish is that Ballista become more accessible in Diorama as well as official matches:

For Diorama, simply lifting the Ballista point requirement to register the area would promote more use of it, as official matches are so scarce these days.

My server hasn't seen a Ballista match follow through in well over two to three years due to lack of participants, thereby resulting in cancelled matches. By alleviating the minimum participant prerequisite, obtaining Ballista points to be used for Diorama and temporary items would be a snap.

Whether this will make Ballista more enjoyable to a larger player base or not is not what I'm really concerned about. People who are not interested in PvP probably wouldn't participate anyway. So, I only ask that it be more readily accessible to those of us who do wish to partake in a little conflict.

I don't want new goodies. I don't really want much change in it at all. I won't argue against the idea of adding new rewards. All I want is to play for fun and for the competitiveness that was once among us in earlier years.

If anyone on Ragnarok wants a run for their money, come talk to me. :)

"Reviving" Ballista on a server that hasn't had Ballista since 2005 or whenever it stopped is more or less along the lines of impossible. Inviting people who are interested in Ballista to a server without Ballista is like asking them to walk into a pit, getting stuck on a random server for three months, as well as tossing away money for the transfer fee. The best option for anyone who seriously wants to play Ballista on a competitive level is to transfer to a currently Ballista active server. From my knowledge, such servers only include Gilgamesh (or whichever server Gilgamesh merged with) and Lakshmi.

Bump.

All the Dev team has to do is give better rewards for actually participating in matches:

Easy Things:
Give 5,000 conquest points to every person on the winning team, and 2,500 points for the losing team. (This allows people to fuel their voidwatch activities, and get CP.) Hell it wouldn't be a bad idea to let people pick which regional points they wanted, and have the values adjusted accordingly.


Give 35,000g to every participant on the winning team, and for high scorers give them a bonus (+25% +50%)
Give 15,000-20,000 experience points to every participant on the winning team.
Give the nation that wins a match a HUGE boost towards controlling that conquest area.


Slightly Harder Things:

Create a cosmetic for people to aquire with Ballista points such as an emote, or an aura (You've done this on armors and made a new emote.)

Interesting consumables: Teleportation items, Potions and Elixirs to be used in battle, actual revitalizers that can be used in battle.

Its as simple as making a DEF:1 Neckpiece that has the title "Shadowy Star" (ie- Dark Knight Ballista title.) That gives a graphic effect.

There should be other ones of course, the previous is a minor example.




Phoenix has a decent Ballista community, but like everywhere else in the game its mostly populated by sissies who think PvE is hard in this game, and being able to create .xmls and switch from 60~ pieces of gear on the fly with macros, and rotating a TP -> WS set is hard.

Bump because I actually want something to be done about PvP, and it seems Akujima may have disappeared to defend his last standing thread.

I have been hosting periodic Player Events on Shiva to promote it. It has gone fairly well so far.

Managed to get an official 3 v 3 going on Sylph the other day. Shit is damn near impossible.

I'd love a PvP revival. I think the main problem we have now is that it takes too much effort to do something that doesn't really offer a reward. You can tell by the direction that players tried to force (small groups doing 1v1's in Diorama) that what's wanted is a simpler, straightforward way of battling other players without any bells and whistles.

The appeal for me in PvP isn't about myself, it's about my nation. Things that support Bastok or would give us/me influence in Conquest or Campaign would get me fighting a lot more often.(Well, that and getting a PvP job leveled...)

I'd be more interested in Brenner, though. I mean, Bastokan exercize for a Bastokan knight and all...

I'll post in this thread only from now on.

I did some uncapped today 4v4 Diorama. There was a DRG/SAM that was rocking people, and also a RDM with some nice PDT gear. The RDM was literally unkillable. But yea, it was fun stuff.

Anyhow, I've been able to rally at least 15 people who enjoy just doing PvP for fun. If any reward additions were made, I'm sure way more people would be doing PvP. Especially if that reward addition was PvP specific gear.

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Originally Posted by Jamesruglia

I'd be more interested in Brenner, though. I mean, Bastokan exercize for a Bastokan knight and all...

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Well if Ballista was made by Sandorians, and Bastok invented Brenner... They still need to make the Windurstian battlefield!

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Well if Ballista was made by Sandorians, and Bastok invented Brenner... They still need to make the Windurstian battlefield!

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Name it "MidgetMania"

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Well if Ballista was made by Sandorians, and Bastok invented Brenner... They still need to make the Windurstian battlefield!

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There already is one. It's called defeat the Dhalmels and smelly Galkas at the game of life.

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Anyhow, I've been able to rally at least 15 people who enjoy just doing PvP for fun. If any reward additions were made, I'm sure way more people would be doing PvP. Especially if that reward addition was PvP specific gear.

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The problem with adding Ballista specific gear is that it won't attract people who have no interest in Ballista. It's like feeding carrots to a lion. You can present it, and you'll find yourself on the lion's menu long before the carrot. If you really want outsiders to participate, there should be more cosmetic rewards such as the seasonal event gear you can obtain which changes you to a chocobo or a bat etc. Or anything else that would prove to be valuable to someone who would not normally compete in PvP.

Again I want to restate my opinion on the real matter: the actual problem with our PvP system is that it's not easily accessible to those of us who actually want to take part in it. There doesn't need to be more of a reward than the satisfaction that all your hard work obtaining high end gear and strategic knowledge didn't go to waste.

Ballista and Brenner are not hard concepts to grasp, yet many people just don't get it, and are easily turned off by it. Much like many other portions of the game that are much less challenging (actually are quite honestly a complete joke), some people just need to be taught properly how the game actually works. After they get the hang of things, then perhaps they may become interested in a "new" challenge which would be PvP. Hell, most nooblets don't gear swap as it is, it would be cake for them to switch from PvE to PvP without having to modify macros or anything.

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Originally Posted by Harukusan

says stuff in the post above.

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There has to be some kind of tangible reward for people. People are doing Abyssea like crazy because it gets them really nice equipment. They wouldn't be doing it, if there wasn't some kind of allure. I get that it would take quite awhile to implement sets of gear for each job, or "job type" (ie, Melee, Ranged DD, Healer's, etc). But those who are doing PvP for fun, would also be rewarded with more PvP equipment in order for them to continue doing PvP.

Things like Rings, Earrings or Belts with PvP specific effects. Such as an Earring that allows you to score more petra at one time or dig up more than 1 petra with each /quarry. Rings with "Resist ???" traits on them that have high resist amounts. Paralyze, Slow and Petrify are quite nasty in PvP, and having some Rings to help specifically with all those different effects would be nice. I know there are already PvE rings with such stats, but the PvP Rings could have more of an effect.

If people are to be kept interested in PvP, there has to be rewards for accomplishments. That's where the tournament idea comes in. Don't you think it would be awesome to spectate or participate in a 3v3 tournament? 8 teams of 3, square off in PvP match-ups, dueling it out to be known as the PvP champs. Where the winners walk home with a nice Trophy to mount up in their mog house, and everyone else gets respective trophies and consolation prizes.

I do agree with you that the restraints on time, and the possibility of matches not happening because someone dc's just before the battle, or you can't find 6 people who want to PvP for 1 hour straight. Matches should be lowered to 30 minutes tops, and should be more frequent than just one match every 2 hours.

Hopefully SE doesn't let the current PvP content go to waste though, we can only hope. It would be nice to hear a word from SE about it (/wave), even if the news is not so good.

Considering there have been little to no PvP updates since brenner (iirc), I highly doubt we will come across good news.

Although somehow I don't think it would take too much work, considering the main dynamic of PvP is already in play.

Pertaining to gear that is specific to PvP: Since they release maybe 200 pieces of gear per update, I doubt this would take priority over 95 cap and 99 cap gear, in both the eyes of the players and the developers. To bypass this however, I think an augmentation system using ballista points (or some type of tab like system similar to the one already used by FoV) would be quite fitting. That way there are three sets of gear: Mage, Heavy DD, Light DD that can all have preset augmentations that are specific to PvP and only work in such situations, such as: Latent: WS Damage Taken -10%.

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Originally Posted by Harukusan

There already is one. It's called defeat the Dhalmels and smelly Galkas at the game of life.



The problem with adding Ballista specific gear is that it won't attract people who have no interest in Ballista. It's like feeding carrots to a lion. You can present it, and you'll find yourself on the lion's menu long before the carrot. If you really want outsiders to participate, there should be more cosmetic rewards such as the seasonal event gear you can obtain which changes you to a chocobo or a bat etc. Or anything else that would prove to be valuable to someone who would not normally compete in PvP.

Again I want to restate my opinion on the real matter: the actual problem with our PvP system is that it's not easily accessible to those of us who actually want to take part in it. There doesn't need to be more of a reward than the satisfaction that all your hard work obtaining high end gear and strategic knowledge didn't go to waste.

Ballista and Brenner are not hard concepts to grasp, yet many people just don't get it, and are easily turned off by it. Much like many other portions of the game that are much less challenging (actually are quite honestly a complete joke), some people just need to be taught properly how the game actually works. After they get the hang of things, then perhaps they may become interested in a "new" challenge which would be PvP. Hell, most nooblets don't gear swap as it is, it would be cake for them to switch from PvE to PvP without having to modify macros or anything.

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Holy crap....
You just opened my eyes right there...
I actually think you might be right.

The reason why I came up with the "Instant Dual" idea is because of "Not being able to access pvp when ever I want." and I am one of those who dont participate in current FFXI pvp system mainly because of this and the rules I dislike for pvp battle.. Because of the limitations...

But ya, I can see what you are pointing out.
Its not the reward its the value and the system itself the way it is setup.

BUT THATS WHY WE HAVE THIS THREAD!
lol To come up with our own ideas to see what SE can possibly do to help make pvp worth while and fun to do for all who wish to participate.

=) /cheers

Make the ballista license quest optional, offer EXP scrolls + CP to the winners, create cosmetic ballista rewards, add more ballista zones. Not only that, but make it easier to tell when the next matches are, people who don't regularly PvP aren't gonna check with the pursuivant all the time.

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Originally Posted by Arlan

Holy crap....
You just opened my eyes right there...
I actually think you might be right.

The reason why I came up with the "Instant Dual" idea is because of "Not being able to access pvp when ever I want." and I am one of those who dont participate in current FFXI pvp system mainly because of this and the rules I dislike for pvp battle.. Because of the limitations...

But ya, I can see what you are pointing out.
Its not the reward its the value and the system itself the way it is setup.

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I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but I'll take the first guess with this: an open PvP "challenge" system would be great. If you just want to take part in a random duel or party battle with another group of people, the option should be open to take place anywhere you like (barring cities of course).

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Originally Posted by Akujima

stuff

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I have no issue with adding new rewards to attract more ballista-ignorant players to participate. My original reply was intended to merely state that adding rewards specific to Ballista will not attract players who have no interest or have no idea what Ballista is.

Ballista SPECIFIC rewards will not lure new/uninterested people in.

Give them seals and +2 upgrades to empy armor and you'll see people jump all over it... /sarcasm off

Although that last statement might actually be true, I don't think it will attract the sort of people who are there for the competition. They might frail under the influence of tough competition by players such as us who have years of experience on the Ballista battlefield. That can, of course, be balanced slightly with consolation prizes (lesser gil/exp/cp/etc rewards) as it always has been.

This is probably the 3rd, maybe 4th thread about Ballista and general PvP, and we still go without answers from SE's representatives, let alone the dev. team.

Clearly we are misrepresenting ourselves as people who are "already too loyal to quit" so they don't have to give a damn about us. Their main goals are to attempt to attract more people to make more profits. From a business standpoint, they are doing a so-so job. But as a loyal customer to this service, I expect at least some shed of light on what actually keeps me interested in the game. Ballista is one of the reasons I didn't quit the game over 5 years ago. And with the promise of better upgrades to the game as a whole, I've been nothing but disappointed. One person may not make a difference, but I'm not the only one who believes in this, merely one of the few who is willing to point that out.

I believe that lakshmi(spelling forgive me) has a fairly lively 60 cap scene going on hots (I know that for a couple years most people were going there or fenrir). I'm tempted...... since my small empy ls is slowly dying.

60 cap? I don't personally care about any sort of cap. A real test of ones' mettle is to prove their worth in an uncapped environment.