RDM tanking(post your comments and thoughts on it here)

Haha, maybe I'm just thinking too much of Abyssea. I have heard PLD does tank in Voidwatch, but I and anyone I know haven't done it.

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Originally Posted by Jeez

Haha, maybe I'm just thinking too much of Abyssea. I have heard PLD does tank in Voidwatch, but I and anyone I know haven't done it.

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Yeah, some of them realistically can only safely be tanked by a PLD with an Aegis, otherwise it's a rough fight.

The new ones on the test server are vile things.

what mobs need an Aegis?

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Originally Posted by Gokku

what mobs need an Aegis?

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I never said any mobs needed it, I said: "can only safely be tanked by a PLD with an Aegis" that doesn't mean it's only done that way.

/sigh

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

I never said any mobs needed it, I said: "can only safely be tanked by a PLD with an Aegis" that doesn't mean it's only done that way.

/sigh

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I second this, some of them are straight up EVIL. Their basically abyssea NM's without the crour buffs / mega atma's, no Apoc / RR / GH silliness. Our shell has one O.Chain PLD and one Aegis PLD, both have Almaces and they get tore up, but at least their alive. Melee's tend to die in seconds after pulling hate, this isn't an exaggeration some of those NM's have PT moves that deal 1~1.5K, outside of abyssea. Windy T4 Iron Giant use's Arm Cannon, it was a 20 foot range on target, which is usually your healer. Problem is "cure" max casting range is 20 (you can get away with 20.8), so your healers can and will be one shoted quite frequently. Sandy T4 VWNM will put your tanks into a weakened state, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. They gotta learn to tank with half the HP and long timers / ect. Bastok T4 is about the tamest of the bunch, but she's got evil aoe moves that will take away all your MP and deal heavy damage. One of her moves is aoe encumberment (locks all gear). T3 Sandy VWNM likes to do a move that dispell's all your buffs aoe, then immediately follow it with another move that strips all your gear and locks everything out for 30~60s, and then cast Fast Cast Blizzaja or Thundaja onto your tanks.

Anyhow the days of (MNK + WHM beats EVERYTHING!!) is over once you step outside Abyssea. Counterstance tanking doesn't work so well on VWNMs.

I see nobody has expressed their love for Lord Asag yet.

Stupid charm. -.-

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Originally Posted by Seriha

I see nobody has expressed their love for Lord Asag yet.

Stupid charm. -.-

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The charm is the best part. It gives the melee a chance to have a 95% hit rate on each other instead of a 70% hit rate on Lord Asag. Helps them get their self-esteem back.

Should a redmage be allowed to tank? Sure. Should a RDM be allowed to melee? Sure. Should a RDM be allowed to heal? Sure. Should a RDM be allowed to range? Sure. HOWEVER,...

...should they do it better than the "main" jobs? NO. should they do it at equal levels as "main jobs"? NO.

I hate when RDM's quote the "Jack of all trades" comment, yet fail to quote the follow up line which is...
...Jack of all trades...MASTER OF NONE.

The fact that SE gave us the job of "enfeeble/enhance" caster is awesome enough without going into making us DD or nukers or whatever job players "think" a RDM should be.

i tanked him the other day on pld, he really isnt that bad we did wipe/time out @ 43% due to DD's not being able to hit it since only the DD's from my LS bring sushi and pizzas to voidwatch. and with me on pld there was no UKKO'S!. id have said aegis would be a big help on that fight but i had 0 problems tanking him even though it was the first time i was on pld in a solid 4-5 months.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

I hate when RDM's quote the "Jack of all trades" comment, yet fail to quote the follow up line which is...
...Jack of all trades...MASTER OF NONE.

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Master of none doesn't mean "Sucks at them all" either, so I don't see your point.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

I hate when RDM's quote the "Jack of all trades" comment, yet fail to quote the follow up line which is...
...Jack of all trades...MASTER OF NONE.

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Proved by them having less skill, traits, abilities, no AoE's, and one tier less than the master jobs... well all except healing.

@stylin. My point is that the RDM threads that want more melee/tank options always point to this idea that RDM's are supposed to be an up front fighter as well as Mage. Yes, they can but RDM ARE supposed to do so in a "limited" quantity or quality. Saying they "suck", is a comparative statement. They suck compared to a melee job or tank job. They do a lot better than other Mage jobs. This is what game balance is supposed to be like..not a RDM that can weaponskill for 2k and drop another 4k in nukes.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

melee/tank options

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It bothers me that people keep trying to lump these together, because they are not the same thing at all.

I don't personally think that red mage should be able to tank anything that requires a large group, but......

Didn't SE show a video of a bunch of red mages killing AV? Just sayin.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I don't personally think that red mage should be able to tank anything that requires a large group, but......

Didn't SE show a video of a bunch of red mages killing AV? Just sayin.

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Not so much killing them, but the RDM was tanking him.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

@stylin. My point is that the RDM threads that want more melee/tank options always point to this idea that RDM's are supposed to be an up front fighter as well as Mage. Yes, they can but RDM ARE supposed to do so in a "limited" quantity or quality. Saying they "suck", is a comparative statement. They suck compared to a melee job or tank job. They do a lot better than other Mage jobs. This is what game balance is supposed to be like..not a RDM that can weaponskill for 2k and drop another 4k in nukes.

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When the only jobs a Red Mage can safely say they can out melee is BLM, SMN, and SCH it's not "comparative" at all.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

It bothers me that people keep trying to lump these together, because they are not the same thing at all.

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This too. Sure, a Red Mage has all the tools to survive, but what's the point when all the enmity tools have been nerfed into non-existence? Do you expect them to hold hate with mediocre DD?

Hate reset TP spam is secretly SE's way to get RDM tanking again. :P

So, what I take away from pretty much 99% of these comments after my proposal (Mystic Knight):
Everyone skipped my proposal (because I addressed hate generation and bad melee damage) and just posted their thoughts about tanking off the tops of their heads. (Teaches me for posting in an old thread, guess I should have started a new one)

Trying not to be a smartass, but proposing a new job as a "fix" to a currently existing one is hardly a fix. Look at all the good BLU's existence has done for those who wish for viable melee on RDM, much as some would wish we'd just smile, migrate, and never return.

FFXI has 20 jobs right now. Arguably too many depending on who you ask. While you could probably place Mystic Knight somewhere between RDM and DRK with a dash of PLD, hybrid jobs are having a rough time actually being hybrids because SE is doing a poor job in giving them what they need, and it doesn't help that some people within these particular job camps fight against doing just that. Personally, until SE has all their ducks in a row, I don't want to see any new jobs.

I specifically noted that it "started" as a new job class, but that it really is more of an addition to Red Mage. (and it's not really all that much of an addition, in the grand scheme of things) It's mostly an extension of existing Red Mage abilities and Spell lines.

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but when I reviewed the job, I realized "this isn't a new job, it's Red Mage in a tanking position."

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Would they both welcome this new twist on the job?

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There is enough to this job to make it unique in FFXI, but Red Mage almost fits the description already with its selection of En-spells and in the past, Red Mage has shown its potential as a tank job, which is where I think it should be when it's on the front lines (sadly, most of its enmity tools were cut away, possibly intentionally, but likely just a side effect of helping other mages since they generated so much enmity).

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To create the "Mystic Knight" side of Red Mage, add:

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This is what we end up with:
Back Lines Red Mage:
Front Lines Red Mage:

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If this sounds too much like a new job... and you want to step this far onto Red Mage's toes, taking over En-spell mastery and curing and nuking... go ahead and make Mystic Knight!

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Originally Posted by Seriha

FFXI has 20 jobs right now. Arguably too many depending on who you ask. While you could probably place Mystic Knight somewhere between RDM and DRK with a dash of PLD, hybrid jobs are having a rough time actually being hybrids because SE is doing a poor job in giving them what they need, and it doesn't help that some people within these particular job camps fight against doing just that. Personally, until SE has all their ducks in a row, I don't want to see any new jobs.

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Pretty much this. Balancing current jobs and mechanics should come before huge new additions, otherwise we just end up with two mediocre things (but one is new!) instead of one good thing.

Things aren't as out of whack as some folks advertise, but there is plenty of broken stuff laying around.

If anyone remembers the studies done by Kanican when RDM tanking was first discovered, you'll see that when you break down FFXI's Enmity system, CE (Cumulative Enmity) from spells and damage, greatly outweighs VE (Volatile Enmity) from JAs. Before the nerf, several spells that RDM were able to use all had, CE values of 50-100 each, so by simply casting Bind and Dispel back to back repeatedly, RDM was able to generate CE at a staggeringly high rate causing it to completely fold any Tanking counterpart at pulling and keeping hate. Because of this, and RDM's natural ability to survive and its superior shadow casting ability (At that time) RDM was easily the most powerful tanking class vs any NM that needed shadow tanking. I'm sure some of you might remember that with a RDM tanking, BLMs and DDs were more free to let loose than they could ever be with a PLD or NIN tanking. It was simply too hard to take hate from a RDM.

I wanted to remind everyone of this because this is why SE killed RDM tanking. Having a Mage Class, that is naturally self-sufficient, able to hold and keep better hate on major fights, is ground breaking. And for that very same reason, SE will probably not allow RDM to tank like that again. Just a heads up. It took them 2 years before they finally put their foot down on RDM tanking but they did, and they had Chuck Norris do the stomping. RDM tanking is done, for good reason lol

I feel like it was more of a stab at NIN/DRK than RDM/NIN, really.

Meh, I don't see why SE would find any fault in NIN tanking is the only reason I don't want to accept that. NIN/DRK was very good at pulling and holding hate, but their main CE tools were Bind and Stun and MP was a constant problem for NIN/DRK. They were better at holding hate than a PLD and Arguably on the same Level as DRK tanking? But RDM tanking trumped them. Probably the most notorious cases were RDM tanking vs JoL and getting CE so high that it took the DRK in my LS 1 BloodWeapon + Souleater + K Club and 3 consecutive Curebomb K Clubs to finally pull hate. And RDM tank used to stand-tank Kirin instead of kiting. Alot of people like to say it was done to nerf DRK/NIN but the evidence points to them stopping RDM tanking, when they killed the CE values, they did it for ALL spells we use except Cure 4... Our Bar-Spells, Dispel, Sleeps, nothing worked anymore after that and all of these are spells that NIN cant use with DRK sub.
I'm confident SE did that to stop RDM tanking, don't get me wrong I loved being a RDM tank but it was wrong on so many levels... A RDM *Shouldnt* be a better tank than a NIN or PLD and PLDs and NINs got hit in the cross-fire cuz at that time, /DRK and /RDM were viable subs for them

The single issue with RDM "tanking" was it took awhile to build up hate. PLD's and even NIN's had spells / abilities with a high VE value. And while CE and VE are equally valuable, VE wears so fast as to be impossible to maintain, but you tend to get more of it at once. RDM sucks as a sole tank, but absolutely shines when your dual tanking. PLD/NIN + RDM/NIN was the crazy good combo, the PLD would sentinel and blast their hate through the roof, then the RDM would slowly build it and eventually overtake the PLD. Typically took 5min for this to happen, by myself the mob would be chasing the WHM's or the BLM's before I had a chance to build super hate.

So while RDM tanking as awesome, it did have it's limits.

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Originally Posted by saevel

The single issue with RDM "tanking" was it took awhile to build up haste. PLD's and even NIN's had spells / abilities with a high VE value. And while CE and VE are equally valuable, VE wears so fast as to be impossible to maintain, but you tend to get more of it at once. RDM sucks as a sole tank, but absolutely shines when your dual tanking. PLD/NIN + RDM/NIN was the crazy good combo, the PLD would sentinel and blast their hate through the roof, then the RDM would slowly build it and eventually overtake the PLD. Typically took 5min for this to happen, by myself the mob would be chasing the WHM's or the BLM's before I had a chance to build super hate.

So while RDM tanking as awesome, it did have it's limits.

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All of this, and additionally, Red Mage tanking went downhill even faster than Paladin tanking once engaging the monster entered the equation. I don't understand why something honestly situational was considered overpowered by the development team.

Tanking seems to be an aspect of the game which the development team takes a large, albeit bizarrely expressed, interest in. If a spell's enmity generation is taken advantage of by people on large, that spell is changed as soon as they can figure out how to untangle their own spaghetti code and change it.

I don't know if I should be hopeful or fearful that they would ever pay so much attention to all elements of FFXI.

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Originally Posted by saevel

The single issue with RDM "tanking" was it took awhile to build up hate.

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False. RDM capped hate faster then both PLD and NIN. At the time RDM was the single best tank in the game. This is why it was nerfed because it was being used on everything. 3 minutes and you were capped on CE and VE, and nothing was taking it off. If you wanted DD to be able to start right away you had a THF SATA you and then go sit in his corner out of the ally to watch.

Nin/drk had access to stun/blind/sleep etc., Not sure what Nins you had that were taking significantly longer.

*3 minutes of dealing little damage to the mob