The Aegist

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Originally Posted by Sirmarki

No it's not the same thing, otherwise SE would have put every single weapon and Armor piece on the Auction House.
Mercing is bending mechanics of the game, and 99% of them use third party tools to do it.

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Mercing has existed since day1 of this game. 99%? Where is your proof on that number lol, getting really a better picture now of the type of player I'm responding to.

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Its simply a matter of opinions really.

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To me as long as it's not the same item that's all that matters.

Be realistic, no one is going to run around with one of these and claim that they worked their butt off for an afterglow aegis, and a simple /check will reveal they don't have one equipped.

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Originally Posted by Pixela

Why do people get afterglows?

The thing you're missing is that just because it's not impressive to you, as someone that have achieved far higher things it doesn't mean it's not valued by others. Regardless it's setting a bad precedent.

I recently put a lot of effort to get a yagrush, I self farmed most of the currency so it took a long time. To you it's probably nothing but if they added a login one with a poop emoji on it I would be a bit annoyed.

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I personally don't see a issue and I have aegis and ochain afterglowed

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Originally Posted by zataz

I personally don't see a issue and I have aegis and ochain afterglowed

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O yea lol anything afterglowed grow a pair and do trial 5055 then you can complain.

Nobody cares about your afterglow, none of it is impressive. Its the principle and idea behind the item. Ask yourself, are you ok with every REMA being reskinned as a lv1 lockstyle item? If you are, you probably don't care that much about this game.

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Ask yourself, are you ok with every REMA being reskinned as a lv1 lockstyle item?

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If you don't think this is impressive why is it a problem?

Nothing is really impressive anymore, maybe max ranked odyssey gear at best but thats not something displayed visually. I personally think its a problem due to lore and it cheapens the whole game experience to see mules running around with fake REMA on. That is my opinion, and it used to be shared by a lot of people in the past but sadly now as the game has aged we get this community that doesn't give a crap anymore about anything. That is also a direct result of this dev team and by extension, SE, not caring much about the game either. Its like a lose lose situation, you literally have people fighting you over your opinion on something as tiny as this. If they don't care about devaluing (in many different aspects) a relic armor, where do they draw the line? The fact is, they probably don't even have a line. They couldn't care less if everyone and their mule was running around with reskinned REMA. I think it just speaks to the state of things and thats what mostly bothers me.

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Originally Posted by Immortal

What you are saying has literally 0 to do with the discussion in this thread. You really have some problems to sort out.

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How you act is relevant when you are around. Lol.

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Originally Posted by Immortal

Nobody cares about your afterglow, none of it is impressive. Its the principle and idea behind the item. Ask yourself, are you ok with every REMA being reskinned as a lv1 lockstyle item? If you are, you probably don't care that much about this game.

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Heh, people certainly care about afterglow. Some even get banned from Leviathan for it.

Overall—and I don't think you see it or at least admit it—you keep forcing square logic through a round hole. As you can't separate it from your values.

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Originally Posted by Immortal

Mercing has existed since day1 of this game. 99%? Where is your proof on that number lol, getting really a better picture now of the type of player I'm responding to.

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A legit player you mean? I'm confused?

No it wasn't a thing, not on Fenrir. The Japanese were/are masters of the game and they wouldn't touch mercing with a barge pole.

So you're telling me that a player with 6 toons is sitting around 6 different PC's and using their hands, feet and tongue to control their characters all at once?

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Originally Posted by Sp1cyryan

How you act is relevant when you are around. Lol.



Heh, people certainly care about afterglow. Some even get banned from Leviathan for it.

Overall—and I don't think you see it or at least admit it—you keep forcing square logic through a round hole. As you can't separate it from your values.

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You have no idea what you are talking about, but thats nothing new

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Originally Posted by Sirmarki

A legit player you mean? I'm confused?

No it wasn't a thing, not on Fenrir. The Japanese were/are masters of the game and they wouldn't touch mercing with a barge pole.

So you're telling me that a player with 6 toons is sitting around 6 different PC's and using their hands, feet and tongue to control their characters all at once?

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Toons... yeah, you are that guy

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I personally think its a problem due to lore and it cheapens the whole game experience to see mules running around with fake REMA on.

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Again, if achieving the actual item isn't considered remarkable, I don't see how they are cheapened by a clearly identifiable vanity clone.

It's as I said before, no one is going to claim they have an aegis when they only have one of these, and it's easy to differentiate them. They're different items with different names obtained in different ways, As far as I can see such items don't take anything away from the genuine article as long they can be identified as not being the same item.

There are really no remarkable achievements anymore though, can you name some that are visual? We are at a point where most items are within reach to almost everyone aside from max augmented Odyssey gear, which is not a visual piece. Most time gates are removed, Gil falls from the trees. I was mainly looking at it from a lore perspective and the historical value the item had with players.

I think they look almost exactly the same from a distance, you can't tell the difference. I think its a cheap joke at the expense of an iconic piece of gear, but at this point its getting annoying to repeat myself. You can keep your opinion and I'll keep mine and surely we'll be right back here when they do it again because everyone seems to deem it acceptable.

Matsui = Zack Snyder
Fujito = Joss Whedon

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Originally Posted by Immortal

Toons... yeah, you are that guy

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Rather than write some cryptic message, how about you explain your comment?

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Originally Posted by Sirmarki

Rather than write some cryptic message, how about you explain your comment?

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Holdover from years gone by where WoW players called their characters "toons" and it made them easier to spot. People in the XI community generally don't use that term.

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There are really no remarkable achievements anymore though,

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If you want to make this case, then there isn't any kind of problem here. If getting a relic isn't anything special, then there shouldn't be any problem with having a cosmetic item that looks like one.

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Originally Posted by Sirmarki

Rather than write some cryptic message, how about you explain your comment?

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He's referring to the fact that you're referring to characters as "toons."

This is often hated outside of games like WoW and Maplestory that actually have cartoonish looking characters/graphics. FFXI is not one of those games and it doesn't make a lot of sense to use that term.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

If you want to make this case, then there isn't any kind of problem here. If getting a relic isn't anything special, then there shouldn't be any problem with having a cosmetic item that looks like one.

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That isn't the case I'm making for this. In my opinion (i have to keep saying this because people don't read) this item has a history with players, it is iconic and it is actually in the games lore... I don't think something like that, which most REMA fall under, should be turned into a lv 1 lockstyle item without adjustments. Something like Excalipoor is cool, done thru the series and funny. That isn't the case here, they literally took the shield model for Aegis and put a dumb face on it. From a distance you couldn't tell the difference.

Its not some HUGE issue, its just something I disliked. I thought it was funny but would rather they make it more along the lines of Excalipoor... At the least a slight color change so its like Rusty/old, that would be a cool lock style. Not the exact same shield with a face. I feel like if an item has a history behind it with players and its in the lore of the game and has some relevance in todays game, it shouldn't be a lv 1 lockstyle item.

Again, this is all my personal opinion, nobody is trying to force you to change yours. SE will do whatever they want like always without even reading this.

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this item has a history with players, it is iconic and it is actually in the games lore...

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I don't really agree with this but I'd still wager that's the reason it was chosen. But it could have just as easily been any other relic. I don't see it as any more "iconic" than any other relic, and the entire set of relic weapons is in the game's lore (each was wielded by a past hero in the shadowreign era). So, it's still flawed.

The only sense in which it might be "iconic" is that it might have been the most made relic (I'm sure someone has data on this though)

You don't agree with what? That its iconic? I mean.. it is, its one of the most useful relics in the game for one (still) and two it was extremely popular for a very long time. They even used it in some spin off games like that grandmasters game. Aegis itself is a popular mythical item across multiple media, not hard to see why it was popular.

Any other relic I would have the same opinion. It's also a fear of mine they will repeat this with other REMA, I don't like that idea personally. If they want to do it, I feel they should do the Excalipoor style instead, I enjoyed that one a lot.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

He's referring to the fact that you're referring to characters as "toons."

This is often hated outside of games like WoW and Maplestory that actually have cartoonish looking characters/graphics. FFXI is not one of those games and it doesn't make a lot of sense to use that term.

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That's great. I haven't played any of them, so.... Still doesn't explain the comment they made:

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Originally Posted by Immortal

Toons... yeah, you are that guy

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https://i.imgur.com/9WVQJak.jpg

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Originally Posted by Pixela

https://i.imgur.com/9WVQJak.jpg

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"Look at my attempt to meme, guiz!"

I'm glad they added this. The few people taking serious issue with it fall into a similar range.

https://i.imgur.com/6GrHdhP.jpg

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Originally Posted by Pixela

https://i.imgur.com/9WVQJak.jpg

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You have far too much time on your hands.

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Originally Posted by Sirmarki

You have far too much time on your hands.

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Yeah well, Uriah's got us all beat there.

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Originally Posted by Sirmarki

That's great. I haven't played any of them, so.... Still doesn't explain the comment they made:

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It precisely explains it. Because my post represents exactly why they said that.

"it's often hated [outside of certain games]"

I've never understand why people started calling their characters toons. It is not a synonym for any of the other words we'd use, a toon is *specifically* a character in a cartoon. That's how Tiny Toon Adventures got its name, because the characters on the show were called toons, and they actually called each other as such on the show. It is not like character, char (just shorthand), avatar, persona, identity, figure, etc.

Calling characters in this game "toons" makes it sound like they're... well, actually toons, i.e. characters in a cartoon. FFXI (and FFXIV) are not cartoonish like WoW or certain other MMOs are. So the term makes no sense. And that's why I, and most other people who call out the use of this term, don't like it.

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You don't agree with what? That its iconic? I mean.. it is, its one of the most useful relics in the game for one (still) and two it was extremely popular for a very long time.

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Being a useful item that lots of people got isn't what makes it iconic. If it is iconic, it's more because of the name and actual historical/mythological object it's based on. I like to think of the entire relic line as iconic for how well known they are as powerful weapons that had (what once was) an ardorous trial associated with obtaining them.

The reason some of us are saying it's bad is because we think it damages the game in the minds of the players, and it's a sign of worse things to come from a new producer that obviously doesn't care.

Supporting it out of pure contrarianism or trolling is pleb tier.

The reason someone that wins a sports event gets a gold medal or trophy is because our brains are hard wired to enjoy a visible trophy for the hard effort, even if the money/stat boost is the primary reason. Taking the most iconic REMA in the game and giving it to everyone on the server is a massive disincentive to engage with this or other achievements at a subconscious level. In a game that is foundationally built on long winded achievements as the primary reason to play it no less. Added to that, they make a mockery of it too.

There is nothing we can do about it now, as always by the time we find out what they are doing it's too late to change it. It's still outrageously stupid and counter productive to a primary reason people play the game.

I put more effort into a shield for the shield competition a few years ago than he did for his job, he didn't even change the color to be silver or iron as he could of to rectify the issues of a lazy re-use of assets.

https://i.imgur.com/8nUsv0I.jpg

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Supporting it out of pure contrarianism or trolling is pleb tier.

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It's a good thing none of us are doing that.

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The reason someone that wins a sports event gets a gold medal or trophy is because our brains are hard wired to enjoy a visible trophy for the hard effort, even if the money/stat boost is the primary reason.

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That ship sailed like a decade ago.

As others in this thread have already stated, relics haven't been considered an accomplishment for a long time, and it certainly seems like the playerbase has accepted that. The notion that the existence of this item is minimizing an accomplishment as you're suggesting with this comment is inaccurate at best.

When I started working towards Claustrum, there wasn't a single one in existence yet, while every other relic had at least one (With the next least popular being the axe I think). But today, making relics is fairly trivial (easy and not all that time consuming against a lot of other far more time consuming items in the game), and by the time I actually finished mine, several more dedicated people had made one just for the sake of making one. It wasn't really an accomplishment except maybe for the first person who actually did it. I've accepted that, and I think most people who have relics have accepted that. If they created this item 10 years ago, sure, I could maybe understand people being a little upset.

There are cases where you could make this argument, but I don't think the Agest is a good case study for this issue.

FFXIV used to have highly exclusive rewards for topping the rankings in PvP, and the people who actually played The Feast during this time were constantly annoyed at people begging SE to make these items available from other content because they didn't want to do PvP but wanted to have EVERYTHING. In this case, doing so WOULD be a minimzation of accomplishment because achieving a spot in the rankings actually was an accomplishment and those items remain exclusive to this day as they didn't repeat any rewards (though there were variations with different color schemes).

The one time SE actually did pull something like that quite understandably did cause an uproar. There were these earrings, the White Ravens, which were only obtainable from a special battle during FFXIV 1.x, and they had previously promised that those items would remain exclsuive to that. But then they re-released them for a seasonal event in ARR, and that meant that not only was the item no longer exclusive, but it could be obtained with zero effort during the event. It wasn't even a different item, it was the exact same item so there was no way to tell the item apart from the originals. And I think that's an important factor.

To me the aegist is fine because:
1) The Aegis was never exclusive in the first place, anyone who put the time/gil in could get one
2) The Aegist is clearly a replica, it isn't trying to pretend its the real thing
3) It is an item of its own and thus can be told apart from the real one
4) You can tell it apart even if it's lockstyled because they won't have the real one equipped

The reason people had a problem with the White Ravens in FFXIV isn't because they made a look-alike, it's because they actually distributed the original item that other people had to work hard to obtain from a difficult battle during the time the game was an utter dumpster fire and the new distribution required no effort whatsoever. If they had released an item that was clearly a copy i.e. it had a different name and/or different attributes, it wouldn't have been received so poorly.


SE did the right thing here by creating a new item with a new name that isn't functionally useful in any way other than to let you look cool (particularly if your job isn't PLD). Since it can be told apart from the original I have no problem with it whatsoever.

Spicyryan is, it seems to be all he does lately.

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Originally Posted by Pixela

Spicyryan is, it seems to be all he does lately.

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It's just with you. He's actually mocking you, it isn't even about being contrarian, he just doesn't like you and therefore is taking the time to call you out. I don't really care for you either, but I'm not petty and if you say something worthwhile I'm willing to acknowledge it.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It's just with you. He's actually mocking you, it isn't even about being contrarian, he just doesn't like you and therefore is taking the time to call you out. I don't really care for you either, but I'm not petty and if you say something worthwhile I'm willing to acknowledge it.

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No it's not, he posts the same stupid way on the official forums to everyone (and he only posts like this here). However I know he is extremely mad about me posting some facts about him elsewhere, which was funny.

Regardless I don't care if he likes me or not, or you for that matter as you're well aware (however I still respect your opinion enough to engage with the things you say). I stopped posting most places that relate to XI at this point becasue I'm pretty disheartened with the game currently, I only post here now because there is a minute chance the producer might see them.

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Originally Posted by Pixela

No it's not, he posts the same stupid way on the official forums to everyone (and he only posts like this here). However I know he is extremely mad about me posting some facts about him elsewhere, which was funny.

Regardless I don't care if he likes me or not, or you for that matter as you're well aware (however I still respect your opinion enough to engage with the things you say). I stopped posting most places that relate to XI at this point becasue I'm pretty disheartened with the game currently, I only post here now because there is a minute chance the producer might see them.

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Completely agree with you, such a shame the whole situation but what can you do.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It's a good thing none of us are doing that.


That ship sailed like a decade ago.

As others in this thread have already stated, relics haven't been considered an accomplishment for a long time, and it certainly seems like the playerbase has accepted that. The notion that the existence of this item is minimizing an accomplishment as you're suggesting with this comment is inaccurate at best.

When I started working towards Claustrum, there wasn't a single one in existence yet, while every other relic had at least one (With the next least popular being the axe I think). But today, making relics is fairly trivial (easy and not all that time consuming against a lot of other far more time consuming items in the game), and by the time I actually finished mine, several more dedicated people had made one just for the sake of making one. It wasn't really an accomplishment except maybe for the first person who actually did it. I've accepted that, and I think most people who have relics have accepted that. If they created this item 10 years ago, sure, I could maybe understand people being a little upset.

There are cases where you could make this argument, but I don't think the Agest is a good case study for this issue.

FFXIV used to have highly exclusive rewards for topping the rankings in PvP, and the people who actually played The Feast during this time were constantly annoyed at people begging SE to make these items available from other content because they didn't want to do PvP but wanted to have EVERYTHING. In this case, doing so WOULD be a minimzation of accomplishment because achieving a spot in the rankings actually was an accomplishment and those items remain exclusive to this day as they didn't repeat any rewards (though there were variations with different color schemes).

The one time SE actually did pull something like that quite understandably did cause an uproar. There were these earrings, the White Ravens, which were only obtainable from a special battle during FFXIV 1.x, and they had previously promised that those items would remain exclsuive to that. But then they re-released them for a seasonal event in ARR, and that meant that not only was the item no longer exclusive, but it could be obtained with zero effort during the event. It wasn't even a different item, it was the exact same item so there was no way to tell the item apart from the originals. And I think that's an important factor.

To me the aegist is fine because:
1) The Aegis was never exclusive in the first place, anyone who put the time/gil in could get one
2) The Aegist is clearly a replica, it isn't trying to pretend its the real thing
3) It is an item of its own and thus can be told apart from the real one
4) You can tell it apart even if it's lockstyled because they won't have the real one equipped

The reason people had a problem with the White Ravens in FFXIV isn't because they made a look-alike, it's because they actually distributed the original item that other people had to work hard to obtain from a difficult battle during the time the game was an utter dumpster fire and the new distribution required no effort whatsoever. If they had released an item that was clearly a copy i.e. it had a different name and/or different attributes, it wouldn't have been received so poorly.


SE did the right thing here by creating a new item with a new name that isn't functionally useful in any way other than to let you look cool (particularly if your job isn't PLD). Since it can be told apart from the original I have no problem with it whatsoever.

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It was explained various times already. Where are you drawing the line to determine what you would consider ok to copy and paste with a smiley face? Relics don't take a lot of time or effort, but they have lore, history and its iconic with players. One of the biggest gripes those lv75 cap only players have is the irrelevance of items they once revered, this seems like another bullet in their favor.

Almost everything is trivial these days because a majority of the time gates were removed on literally everything and Gil is quite easy to come by too, in addition to everyone and their grandma multi boxing. The only long term thing these days is Ergon weapons due to the mandatory wait time and once you get one you get the other super easily/fast. The requirements for caring about something doesn't simply have to do with Gil or time requirement, it can be something iconic/historical in the game and still rub people the wrong way if you take that exact item and put a smiley face on it.

You say its not the exact same item but really it is, the face is different but most people are not going to tell from a distance. There are already people who don't recognize the current face, they won't know unless they examine the person. Really, what most are bothered by isnt the fact its in the game but the fact they choose to do stuff like this to devalue other iconic things and not care about their lore or longevity of their game. They should have brought new upgrades to these armors, not make lv1 vanity items but at this point we know how depressing the outlook for new stuff is.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It's just with you. He's actually mocking you, it isn't even about being contrarian, he just doesn't like you and therefore is taking the time to call you out. I don't really care for you either, but I'm not petty and if you say something worthwhile I'm willing to acknowledge it.

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He does it with me too, even going so far as to completely go off topic to drag random rumors and the past into it to attack people. I think you are siding with the wrong person, he doesn't even care about this game lately as he plays on private servers lol.

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Originally Posted by Immortal

Your act is so tired, just stop.

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What act is this? While it has to be rather sanded around the edges for this board. It isn't like I am lying at any point.

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It was explained various times already. Where are you drawing the line to determine what you would consider ok to copy and paste with a smiley face?

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The line is "can the real thing be told apart from the fake in any way?"

If the answer is yes, it's fine.

If you have an ageis and they have an aegist, we know who put in the effort to obtain an item and who spent their login points. Therefore in my opinion, it doesn't "minimize" your item, accomplishment, or investment, as you still have an aegis and they don't (unless of course, they have one of those too)

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You say its not the exact same item but really it is, the face is different but most people are not going to tell from a distance.

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This is irrelevant. It's not the exact same item because it's not the exact same item. It has a different name, different stats, they can be posessed at the same time, etc.

It is a different item obtained in a different way with different attributes. That is good enough for me. There is no gray area here.

It's kind of like having two copies of a poster, one signed by the artist on the back and one not. People tend to place different values on something that is autographed over something that isn't. The two posters may look the same, but they are treated differently by different people. The same applies here.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It precisely explains it. Because my post represents exactly why they said that.

"it's often hated [outside of certain games]"

I've never understand why people started calling their characters toons. It is not a synonym for any of the other words we'd use, a toon is *specifically* a character in a cartoon. That's how Tiny Toon Adventures got its name, because the characters on the show were called toons, and they actually called each other as such on the show. It is not like character, char (just shorthand), avatar, persona, identity, figure, etc.

Calling characters in this game "toons" makes it sound like they're... well, actually toons, i.e. characters in a cartoon. FFXI (and FFXIV) are not cartoonish like WoW or certain other MMOs are. So the term makes no sense. And that's why I, and most other people who call out the use of this term, don't like it.

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I agree. I always said alts and mules back back in the day cause it was the slang everyone used back in the 75 days era.