What Vanadiel would we be in.... if SE DROPPED PS2!

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Originally Posted by Apocalypse

first of all its pretty sad when people only think for themselves and wanting to end ps2 support - ur not helping FFXI community and top of that FFXI is almost a decade old. and u want a entire revamped into a FFXI-2, are u willing to pay more than what ur paying for and now i say either quit FFXI or shut up and play as it is :p

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You're wrong here. Most people are not thinking of themselves. They are thinking of the game as a whole. The PS2 support is not helping the FFXI community.

so ur implying its ok to push PS2 user off and happen to be the main of playerbase / fanbase for this game, and lets not forget jp also is part this. and image how much will it cost SE to revamp whole thing to HD like FFXIV... so either keep as it is or end it cuz obviously SE isnt gonna kill PS2 anytime soon.

They don't need to revamp anything, and PS2 players are the smallest minority playerbase.

I wanted to post two misconceptions in this thread:

1. "this game is only going to last X more years"

Ultima Online is still active. EQ1 is still active. Hosting servers doesn't cost too much, and FFXI is far from being as small a population as some failed games (Warhammer comes to mind, and it's still going with only 6 servers). Saying this game will die anytime soon is a huge leap based off of contrary evidence towards older MMOs. (basically older mmos have shown companies will keep running them until the servers cost more than the subscriptions, which is rather small)

2. "SE only cares about their Japanese playerbase, and they are PS2 users"

This statement would have been true back in '05. Time has GREATLY changed since then. Unless you can actually read the Japanese forums (both here and elsewhere), stop spreading an outdated assumption. For a long time Japanese centered forums have had many demanding to stop ps2 support. Most of them have moved on at this point and no longer use the ps2 and have become pc users. (heck there's a big thing going on atm where a huge majority of SE MMOers moved to WoW because they are sick of SE's games, and there is finally enough addons for WoW for them to understand it).


Now, you can argue about whether or not they should get rid of it, idk either way. I just wanted to say using those two comments to support your statements are not really true.

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Originally Posted by Romanova

Ultima Online is still active. EQ1 is still active.

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You can hardly call that active. lol

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

You can hardly call that active. lol

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Then you know very little of what Sony has been doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCoizs0wwTk

Youtube is for people who can't use the internet, care to voice it yourself?

The player base for ps2 is smaller then you think Apocalypse. They are at like 8% of the player base everyone but those 8% has upgraded. Get with the times and upgrade. As for games that are old and still online, look at Diablo 1 & 2 they are still active and the system is always being updated. Over the 2 week break from Japans flood and earthquake i reinstalled those to play them for something to do and found new armor and items that were not in there before. Nothing is impossible and the guy who said 30 million to revamp game, dude stop smoking crack.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Youtube is for people who can't use the internet, care to voice it yourself?

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Actually, zam does a really good job in that episode explaining it in the youtube video, and it's more likely you can't handle being wrong so are trying to delay responding, but here it goes:

Sony has been heavily active in keeping EQ updated. They have fully revamped the graphics, added quests, added classes, but most importantly:

They've created something called progression servers.

Basically, the server starts exactly the way the game was when it was first released in 1999 (you can see the comparison in graphics if you actually try the link). The server has to do certain objectives to slowly release later updates/expansions in the game.

Since I don't know if you ever actually played eq, imagine starting on a FFXI server where the cap is 50 and only the first six jobs are available. (Everyone has to start new characters too). Perhaps once X amount of people have managed to get caught up in the nation missions or something similar, then the cap gets extended to 60. (eventually zilart, extra jobs, et. al. would get added in the order they appeared).

Initially, they started with 1 server, but people couldn't get in because the server was always full, so they added a second, I've seen places where it's rumored a 3rd might get started (this is on top of 14 regular servers, again Warhammer only manages to have 6 atm for comparison).

Now am I saying it's popular? No. That never was that my statement.

Am I saying it's active? Absolutely, and if you want to counter that, you'd have a hard time convincing me a game where you have 1.developers actively making changes, 2. unique servers that are having to increase due to demand 3. insane graphical updates (seriously can't describe it, the youtube episode of zam does just fine) 3. Is big enough to be able to have 14 regular servers 4. is still able to survive as a pay to play; should be considered something I "could hardly call that active".

It is still active, and is older than ffxi by three years.

Going back to my original point, even Sony has stated they will not stop developing the game until it is no longer profitable, but it still is. Why would SE be any different? They are not developing games because they are "fun" they are developing them to keep making money. People want the game to be "dead" because they are frustrated/bored/feel it's old/ etc. etc. That is not how a company looks at it.

Upgrading your system is the same thing S-E was asking of us to play FFXIV, so I don't think we're hypocritical in wanting FFXI players to upgrade. There's a few client-side mechanics problems (that cause 3rd party programs) that the PS2 is causing, such as macros and inventory. We can't have a single bag at 160 because the PS2 is somehow limited to 80.

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Originally Posted by ZeDingo

Upgrading your system is the same thing S-E was asking of us to play FFXIV, so I don't think we're hypocritical in wanting FFXI players to upgrade. There's a few client-side mechanics problems (that cause 3rd party programs) that the PS2 is causing, such as macros and inventory. We can't have a single bag at 160 because the PS2 is somehow limited to 80.

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FFXIV is a different game. You upgrade your system before you buy it and invest YEARS in it.

FFXIV may be a different game, but I treated upgrading my PC for FFXIV the same way I did for FFXI when it first came out.

The technology is more advanced, but it's still the same concept. Every few years a game you want to play is coming out that requires specs higher than your current rig, so you do what you can to upgrade.

I'd like to see a dev's response to this matter, though I doubt PS2 support will ever come to light. The dev team is so small at this point.

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Originally Posted by Retsujo

I'd like to see a dev's response to this matter, though I doubt PS2 support will ever come to light. The dev team is so small at this point.

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not according to the credits I found. It was something like 150ish people. But then again the titles were generic and there were no credits for specific parts of the game.

I'd like a source for that 8% number.

And, even if that were true, I'd like to know what percentage of JP players are PS2, by that same source.

The fact is, until a significant number of Japanese players no longer use PS2, PS2 support will continue, because Square-Enix shows open preference for the Japanese playerbase.

I've been thinking and reading for a long time about the way the PS2 limits the game growth, and I am a big supporter of the idea of tossing it aside to allow for improvement. But, as of late I've come to the conclusion that it's simply not going to happen. The game itself is coded to fit PS2 tech. Real update to the graphics and capabilities of the game would likely require a complete rewriting of the game code.

I think of the DAT modders to make an example. All the 2D elements in the game are hard coded. That is, maps, visual effects, icons, etc. the flat things. These items cannot be HighDef'd unlike the textures used to wrap the game's polygons (land, armor, weapons, players, etc.). The coding for the 2D aspects is literally tied into the game's executable. Even if they did adjust the coding to allow for greater resolution there would still be the need to increase the polygon counts on players, mobs and environment to get increased visuals. Which would require a complete reworking of every single animation, armor piece and weapon in the game.

For the most part, every "new" thing the game has added has been in some way a rehash of some "old" thing. Very little truly originally new content exists outside of a few new mobs added in with an expansion.

Now, that's not to say I don't want new content. Even if its the same content we've already got (i.e. more rehash) I'd be okay with it. I just want more story. But, I don't really think the PS2 is actually preventing us from getting more story based content. I know there's technical limitations, but I think they just need some reworked thinking to get around the problems instead of alienating any percentage of the community.

They really can not introduce another expansion due to the ps2. If a new expansion came out it would completely exceed the HD of the ps2 and lucky if you are even able to log in let alone get repeated errors of low memory. I would like to see this game go another 10 years but we all know it won't and the reason being is low population across servers except a chosen few, ps2 limiting the ability of a new expansion(not a rehash of old areas), I personally would like the access to the far east and many new mobs to fight and battle arenas(bc type). The coming update will probably give at most 3 months of enjoyment if lucky then back to old stuff til next update.

FFXI could be given a new look and be the game they tried to make FFXIV into.......

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Originally Posted by Starcade

There would be almost no JP players.

The End. (And the reason why this "Drop PS2 Support" idiocy needs to freaking stop. Square-Enix prefers the JP playerbase, and will cater to them as necessary.)

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So long as it gets rid of you, i'll be happy.

Well If SE expects to stay in the international market, they need to keep be able to communicate with all customers world wide. If SE is afraid of lousing its JP players as a result of moving away from PS2 then i see them as having a much bigger problem with their business model.

Other games upgrade graphic requirements and gave their game a new and exiting look that helped keep it going into the future. (You should know what game i'm talking about) I kinda felt like SE slapped us in the face when it announced FFXIV as being ANOTHER MMO. Yes it looked cool and and the videos were awesome. However as soon as I left the opening movie and was like....wtf am i doing reading mission and quest content. FFXI would be dead or dyeing faster if not for the disappointment that was FFXIV.

If we really want to be angry, I would say you PS2 people want us PC people to leave you behind because thats what happening. PC players are exploring other games given FFXI is stuck recycling content because your hardrive can't hold anymore. I give FFXI another 2 years....or until FFXIV is 1000 time better. Star Wars might even do it.

I don't understand the obsession some players have with the game's graphics. Personally, I think FFXI still looks damn good for its age, especially if you tweak it right for PC. I don't see SE ever altering the graphics, its simply too much of an overhaul.

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Originally Posted by thefinalrune

I don't understand the obsession some players have with the game's graphics. Personally, I think FFXI still looks damn good for its age, especially if you tweak it right for PC. I don't see SE ever altering the graphics, its simply too much of an overhaul.

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Same and I couldn't care less. I still side with dropping the PS2 support though, because there's so many gameplay related issues caused by the PS2 that easily make graphics the absolute least priority.

Even if they did drop PS2 support, what makes anyone think they would give this game a graphics update (which, as mentioned above, it doesn't even need)?

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Originally Posted by Mezzopiano

Even if they did drop PS2 support, what makes anyone think they would give this game a graphics update (which, as mentioned above, it doesn't even need)?

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There would be no such update to graphics, nor would one be needed. Without PS2 support though, we'd be able to get increases in nearly every other aspect of the game.

So...taking out PS2 support would automatically fill the void of new content? Really, I don't get it.

"PS2 Limitations" has been SE's excuse for a few aspects, and also their reasoning behind not updating certain things. One good example is inventory space. I remember them saying that they could only increase inventory space in increments of 80 due to PS2 or something around those lines. It has something or another to do with PS2's internal memory, which is apparently incapable of dealing with too many things at once.

It wouldn't necessarily fill any voids, but it would open quite a few doors that can't be opened as of right now.

Likewise the graphics for FFXI do require an update. It is nice for its age does not really cut it. For new players the game is in competition with newer games. For retaining players the game is likewise in competition with newer games. This includes graphics.

Having started this madness of a post, I'll be jumping in now to give more of my opinion. The PS2 base has downsized drastically, this figure of 8% is the product of players getting tired of recycled content and want to see more of the world! The game storyline paints this beautiful world, that we can only stay in 2 continents of. Thats like going to Hawaii and having to only stay in you're hotel, that sucks! Which is how people are feeling when they leave this game, yes this game was developed for PS2.... Should it always stay that way? Should SAM and RDM be the most epic bad asses of all time? Should Sky and Sea be "THE" End game Content til the servers close? Hell no! If this game is going to keep on living, it needs to keep moving. The best defense is an offense, and that is what SE needs to do now.

Someone asked "What I want to know is how much of that 8% is JP".... wtf does it matter? The point is the % of JPs making the player base of PS2 was massive, and now its obviously not. You gotta think that this 8% PS2 playerbase is not just including JPs, so its obviously seen a MASSIVE downsize from what it was. Now when FFXIV launched, I was one of the first people to say "THIS IS BS! I've invested 6 years of my life to this game! To only have to be forced to a new game in order to enjoy the game's active community! Why in the hell did SE not have the foresight to make FFXI character's carry over to FFXIV!" The thing is, SE said from the beginning the point is they want you to play FFXI and FFXIV, they never wanted it to phase out, and unfortunatly because FFXIV is a failure, FFXI has gotten slow which makes its player base not want to play either. How do you fix this? You introduce new content of the world that is Vanadiel to the game! ToAU sized content! Now how can you do that? By dropping PS2! When people are saying "I don't see how PS2 gets in the way of new content?" Well you obviously haven't been keeping tabs on the DEV posts in this forum to people's fantastic ideas for this game being "PS2 Limitations" at this point its really just the generic answer you get from a college that denies you're application, or a bank that declines you're request for a loan. It's a heartless response that has no real thought into it other then to default to it as an answer

As it has been mentioned PC and Xbox isn't hard to buy these days, especially a PC, chances are if you are on this site, you are able to play FFXI on a PC. You're PC you have been using since 2000 or whatever could not possibly be alive by now, and if it is it probably isn't even good enough to play iTunes music on. By now (It is 2011) you must have updated in some form or fashion you're PC and anything by now can run FFXI (if you are so committed to the game). If PS2 is left to bring down this game, we will NOT see new content, and only see this refurbished content that we have seen since WotG! I mean hell someone mentioned that they want to play FFXI on their PS2 on their HD fancy ass tv.... for what! I can tell you right now the graphics you are putting out on a PS2 is completely wasting any potential of buying a nice HD TV. You would see the same graphics on a old ass non-HD tv of the same size for 5x less the price of what you payed for you're nice fancy TV (that would show PS3's sexy graphics).

Now with graphics, who cares, honestly would I wanna see FFXI look as sexy as FFXIV, sure I would! Yet is that really the necissary point we are trying to make here? No, if you wanted sexy graphics you obviously were not in the right frame of mind by picking up a game that was made in 2002. The game is just fine as it is, what the problem is is the story! We have SOOOOO MMMMMMUUUUCCCCCHHHHH to see! So much this game could be, if the graphics were maintained and the investment went into new storylines, new content, new locations, hell maybe even new jobs, new gear, new EVERYTHING! Who would need shiny new graphics (Although what I would ask is that the optimize the graphics so they don't lag a kick ass PC on a 6 year old game). Not every game with shiny graphics is a good game, it just looks pretty! People play this game for the fun community, the epic storylines, and the fun as hell game play, not so that they can see a game from 2002 try to compete with games like Crysis in graphics.... Thats just absurd. In short, get with the times guys, before you bury this game along with you when you're hard drive burns out, because that will eventually happen. And would you rather suck it up and fork over SOME cash for a low grade system that can play the game you love. Or to see the game you love DIE because you were too stubborn to help advance the game?

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Originally Posted by RushLynx

but FFXI is drawing to an end ... I don't think they're planning on FFXI surviving for more than 2-3 more years...

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Considering it's their main source of income at the moment (according to official figures released for their last financial year), I would go as far as to say you're wrong.

People have been saying FFXI is coming to an end since WoTG was released; then the mini mission expansions; then Abyssea was the end of the world - but now there's no focal point, you just pull a length of time out of your ass, let's call it two or three more years.

Got it, oh master of business and planning.

But now for something with actual substance; I've read and heard Square Enix repeat this sentence over and over again: "While there are still people playing, we'll keep making content".

So long as you keep forking over money, I don't think there's any worry.

Take EQ1 for example, that's still running and now in its 11th year (and still getting expansion/content releases). Why would any sane person stop supporting something that's making them stupid amounts of money with little to no outlay. It's going to take many years before XIV starts making a profit. I'd bet that they're going to try keep FFXI as active as possible until it does start making profit. They'd be stupid not to.

The issue really isn't whether they should drop PS2 support, but rather, simply upgrade to PS3 support instead. I'd bet that a substantial number of the 'PS2' players are actually 'PS3 60GB' players, and those that aren't also own a PS3 that isn't backwards compatable. I personally know someone who played on PS2 until his PS2 broke, and not being able to afford a 60GB PS3, he bought a 2nd hand PS2. This then broke too but reluctant to continuously chase up 2nd hand out-of date consoles he went to the PS3 market. Unfortunately the 60GB model is in short supply, and highly sought after so he had to settle for a non-backwards compatable PS3. He had to leave the game until he eventually bought a laptop, and is now looking to come abck to ffxi on PC (due to ff14 being 'meh'). I wonder how many other cases there are like this, compared to the few PS2 only players that SE fights so hard to keep.

The ideal solution, of course, would be to upgrade to include PS3 AND PS2 for 6 months to a year, then finally drop PS2 and allow us to all enjoy a full auto-translate dictionary and fewer memory issues in all other areas etc.

This game isn't going to die for many years to come. FF14 had it's chance. We tried it, it was sub-par, we forgot about it.

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Originally Posted by Octaviane

Oh no, not this again. Moderators, could you please flag this, lock and/or remove it before we get a bunch of PS2 hate posts. Thanks.

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If you want censorship, why don't you move to Afghanistan and live with it.

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Originally Posted by Vold

If they ever dropped PS2 I would demand a graphical update first thing. That's a Vana'diel I want to see in the future. But seriously the PS2 can't last for as long as FFXI... systems die eventually. Sony can't support the darn thing forever. So eventually they are going to have to make a choice. Drop PS2 or FFXI. It'd be a damn shame to drop FFXI without testing peoples will to play by making them jump to PC. Toss subscribers on PS2 a free PC download and see how it goes. And be all like, look, if you guys jump ship to the PC, we'll update this game to something better. It cannot hurt to try. I bet most if not all of the FFXI player base are packing computers that can run this game, and if they aren't then daaaaaamn I thought I had it rough.

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I've actually held on to my subscription to FFXI beyond my frustration point with the whole mess....taking so long to level solo (I like fighting solo and don't want to have to join a party to get a million experience points in one day in Abyssea) and I'm sick and tired of being punished for being a loner in the game compared to some other players. I'm okay with occasional duos or trios, but I don't want to have to depend on them for fast experience gains.

So I'm hoping for a time when FFXI is no longer a money-maker as an online game. Then I'm hoping SE will make one final revamp to the whole game, making it more like a real offline Final Fantasy game where you can level fast, get all crafts to Lv.100. The game options should include a solo option to make everything solo-able if you want. And there should also be an option to have a party of NPCs which you can program with gambits... have your tank provoke every 30 seconds, have him programmed to cure himself when he hits yellow HP. Have your NPC WHM programmed to cure the tank when his HP hits orange, have your RDM programmed to keep enfeebles up, etc...

I'll miss the living online community of gamers, but honestly I'm so tired of depending on the availability, whims and limitations of other players when trying to get things accomplished in this game. Having spent nearly $2,000 since 2005 on subscription fees, plus the cost of the games and expansions themselves, I'd like to think SE would do this one last thing so we can continue playing after the game is no longer online. I just imagine that there are lots of people who never played it BECAUSE it was an online game. I didn't play it at first because of that very reason, but I have never regretted joining the game.

I've told people in my linkshells that I think experience gains should be doubled yet again, and crafting skill ups should be more frequent. People have replied: "No, that would make it too easy!" Yet those people never complain when experience yields are raised. I just point out: "Okay, then suggest SE makes gear you can equip that cuts your experience gains in half and use that to make YOUR game more difficult. I'm tired of spending my life trying to get things done in FFXI, and I'm nowhere near being through all the quests and missions, even after 390 days of play time, not to mention leveling crafts.

So there we go... I'm ready to take my game offline, just as soon as SE offers the option, even if it means I can't play online anymore.

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Originally Posted by Windblade

even after 390 days of play time

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390 days of played time after playing for 6 years? You sir are what is known as "casual", you're not meant to complete the game or get all the best gear. It's an MMO, not a single player game.

"Offline play" will never happen for technical reasons. It's good to dream, though.

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Originally Posted by Dazusu

390 days of played time after playing for 6 years? You sir are what is known as "casual", you're not meant to complete the game or get all the best gear. It's an MMO, not a single player game.

"Offline play" will never happen for technical reasons. It's good to dream, though.

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I put most of those hours in within one year's time, thank you. I have not played that much in the last few years. Plus there are lots of people who never log out of the game. In one year, I spent literally one third of the year playing, one third working, and I sacrificed sleep. I was not "casual" in that year.

As for going offline, interviews with the developers say that they have considered making it an offline game in the future, after it dies as an online game. I don't think they would have said if there were technical reasons to make it impossible.

Link me to these interviews, or anything surrounding them.

When SE decide to stop hosting this game, it's likely they will sell the rights to run it to the highest bidder and license it to them. If you think they're going to invest hundreds of thousands of man hours into writing a closed, and emulated server for offline play, and changing every last bit of math to support solo play, plus changing the story to be linear or at least followable by a single character, you're severely mistaken.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

The issue really isn't whether they should drop PS2 support, but rather, simply upgrade to PS3 support instead.

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Which is essentially dropping PS2 support. Way to shoot yourself in the foot.

There is literally nothing stopping a PS2 user from moving to PC,xbox or ps3 besides their own stubbornness. They've had the better part of a decade to either upgrade their computer or get a newer console. No, it's not selfish or inconsiderate to expect them to either since the community as a whole benefits from a push to newer technology.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, but I disagree. I still play on a PS2. I only play one day a week, if I have time. I have a fulltime job. I have obligations that do not allow me the luxury of just paying out the money to upgrade a PC to play a game. Nor do I have the extra funds needed to purchase other game console. I have a family to raise. A home to maintain. The expenses needed to keep working. Gaming is a luxury...not a necessity. I have maintained my PS2, even to the point of disassembling it and blowing out the dust drawn in by the ventilation system. If Square would make an affordable backwards compatible PS3 that does not cost a house payment, then I'll consider it. Until then, the PS2 is what I will be playing FFXI on.

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Originally Posted by Zener

There is literally nothing stopping a PS2 user from moving to PC,xbox or ps3 besides their own stubbornness. They've had the better part of a decade to either upgrade their computer or get a newer console. No, it's not selfish or inconsiderate to expect them to either since the community as a whole benefits from a push to newer technology.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. I still play on a PS2. I only play one day a week, if I have time. I have a fulltime job. I have obligations that do not allow me the luxury of just paying out the money to upgrade a PC to play a game. Nor do I have the extra funds needed to purchase other game console. I have a family to raise. A home to maintain. The expenses needed to keep working. Gaming is a luxury...not a necessity. I have maintained my PS2, even to the point of disassembling it and blowing out the dust drawn in by the ventilation system. If Square would make an affordable backwards compatible PS3 that does not cost a house payment, then I'll consider it. Until then, the PS2 is what I will be playing FFXI on.

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Huh? If you have a PC that needs to be upgraded to play FFXI.....you have bigger issues with that PC. Any system bought in the last 4 or 5 years should be able to play this game--worst case it might need a $50 ebay purchase if it runs off crappy on-board graphics. You can buy a new barebones system, or just a complete core (just hookup your old keyboard, mouse, monitor) for $200 or less with more than enough horsepower to play FFXI. Even the cheap $400 laptops will play it just fine--a friend of mine just bought one from Best Buy 2 weeks ago so he could play and it does just fine.

This is where i state yet again, if you are posting on here then obviously you have a pc to play on, and if it's a work pc, DO YOUR JOB instead of typing on a forum. People complain "I can't buy a new pc, I can't do this I can't do that it cost too much". Last I checked places still offer layaway or atleast a credit purchase with payments as low as 20$.

[QUOTE=Scuro;80613]Alright guys lets get a list of people's post on what the world of Vanadiel would be if SE Dropped PS2. I'll start this off with:

Ok, I've been hearing alot about PS2 issues, but since my wife and I use PC's, both son's use Xbox, I am not at all clear on what the problem is with the PS2(other than that one update when users had to completely reload the game due to a glitch). Maybe this isn't the place to ask, but rather curious. We like the PC versions, works quite well for us, along with the Xbox, 1 is here, the other with other son.

The issue we all have with ps2 is.
1 Can not do anymore expansions due to ps2 harddrive limitations that is why they are revamping old zones and adding new mobs.
2 Can not get more then 80 spaces in inventory due to ps2 limitations
3 All gear is rehashed but changed colors cause ps2 can't handle new gear looks
4 Graphics can not be boosted due to ps2 limitations(yet it's too late to redo graphics)

There are alot more reasons but atm this is what alot of us want more of.