Inflated Shihei Prices hmmmmm......

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

It's always the non crafters who complain about prices ^^

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I know right? Why would the people being ripped off complain over the ones doing said ripping off? That wouldn't make a lick of sense.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

I know right? Why would the people being ripped off complain over the ones doing said ripping off? That wouldn't make a lick of sense.

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No one is getting ripped off. If they were, then more people would start crafting in order to rip others off. The result would be more competition, more supply, and lower prices.

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Originally Posted by rog

No one is getting ripped off. If they were, then more people would start crafting in order to rip others off. The result would be more competition, more supply, and lower prices.

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While I agree to an extent, I think you underestimate how truly lazy the average consumer is of these products >.>

Most are too lazy to level a craft and will pay anything, others will not level a craft and complain.

Personally my Woodworking is ~73 and i don't care to craft Shihei, Last i checked (like a year ago >.>) you would lose money without HQ'ing a lot. If thats changed...

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

While I agree to an extent, I think you underestimate how truly lazy the average consumer is of these products >.>

Most are too lazy to level a craft and will pay anything, others will not level a craft and complain.

Personally my Woodworking is ~73 and i don't care to craft Shihei, Last i checked (like a year ago >.>) you would lose money without HQ'ing a lot. If thats changed...

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No i am not. If the crafters were really making bank on shihei, there would be people leveling ww up to spam it, and sell it at outragous prices. But no, no one does, because it is not worth it. The truth is, most people can make more money doing other things.

You can make a profit on shihei with 29 ww on some servers, and at 59 on all servers.

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Originally Posted by rog

No i am not. If the crafters were really making bank on shihei, there would be people leveling ww up to spam it, and sell it at outragous prices. But no, no one does, because it is not worth it. The truth is, most people can make more money doing other things.

You can make a profit on shihei with 29 ww on some servers, and at 59 on all servers.

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Its has been a while, I'm bored in my mog house, i should go craft~

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

1 bag = 1 stack, [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

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Most servers are averaging 80-100k for a stack of 12 bags, 18000 x 12 = upwards of 216000. That was my point.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

While I agree to an extent, I think you underestimate how truly lazy the average consumer is of these products >.>

Most are too lazy to level a craft and will pay anything, others will not level a craft and complain.

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My mule is 98+2 woodworking, the only job Ive played the last 6~ months is ninja, and I don't even bother to make shihei, am I a step above all those other lazy peoples?

EDIT: I love how andytearcumdvalynn or whatever your name is now constantly reports all my posts, I get such a kick out of it. It's almost as funny as you telling people to not use blade: jin on colibris cause the wind damage will heal them.

This thread is a prime example of everything I pointed out in the "Solution for low level Armor on the AH" thread.

It's always "Herp derp what a ripoff, how dare we pay these prices" instead of "Wow, that's profitable, let's get in on that or farm the profitable materials or something".

Newsflash: 100k Gil is something like 40k Cruor. If you can't make 40k Cruor in 1200 Shihei (or just 100k Gil in any other way), you're doing something very wrong. Whining about things being "Too expensive" on the AH is so 2006.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

My mule is 98+2 woodworking, the only job Ive played the last 6~ months is ninja, and I don't even bother to make shihei, am I a step above all those other lazy peoples?

EDIT: I love how andytearcumdvalynn or whatever your name is now constantly reports all my posts, I get such a kick out of it. It's almost as funny as you telling people to not use blade: jin on colibris cause the wind damage will heal them.

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I don't report anything, your own bad attitude is what gets your posts moderated.

I think i just rekindled my Hatred for Crafting. Went to go craft Shihei because of this thread, My Woodworking is 73. 2 Stacks of Ink/4 Bast got me 10 stacks of Shihei +33.

So i went to buy an other Stack of Ink/2Bast to finish off a full 12 Stacks, and my results

33
33
33
33
33
33
33
33
33
33

I f**king hate crafting.

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Seriously now? <_>

Echoing GreatGuardian's comment, it was this line of thought which amused me in that thread too. Some people complain that certain pieces of equipment are too hard to get, but if you dare suggest they pay a price which makes it profitable for a crafter to make it for them, they go into the whole victimised state where this evil capitalist crafter is raping them and their children.

Out of interest, are the same people complaining about prices here also the ones stating erroneously that "gil is useless"?

If anything.. a new player should take advantage of older players laziness and make stuff like shihei to make money for armor and such..

I know when i first started I would fill up my inventory with scorpion shells and claws then come back from afk with 100k from bazaaring... then i could go out and buy that armor i wanted.

It's not that hard to make gil.. even now.. in fact its probably easier for a new person.. selling crystals.. or making stuff most people are too lazy to make...

why would an older player waste time crafting.. npc cruor and buy consumables imo

Ever heard of the phrase time is money. You are paying a premium for people's time, like on my server it the price seems to be 120k-150k for a stack of bags.

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AND If Crafters want to make Money with these again, underbid the npc. Hell it would take me a week or two to get WW 60 but... i don't wanna...
yea thats mebbe cuz im lazy :P

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First of all it does not take a week or two to get level 60 woodworking. I did it myself in 2 hours and you don't even lose much gil because you get a lot of it back from vendoring the stuff you skill up on. Shihei is only level 29 woodworking which can be gotten in about 1 hour. You can HQ more at level 60 but you can at least make it at 29.

So why don't you un-lazy and make your own shehei, if not hope you enjoy paying inflated prices. You got no room to complain when your problem can be fixed in 2 hours of work then spending the actual time to synth your own shihei.

Fuck you people who say that shihei are overpriced. The cost of Nebimonites has more then doubled since abyssea came out. You're aware that the cheapest process of making shihei requires buying nebimonites in jeuno going to windy to buy tee leaves going to sandy to get logs then grinding out a mind numbing number of synths. And in all of this you want me to sell them for less because "It's just not fair" NO NO NO. IIRC shihei really aren't worth making right now when you consider the time to gil ratio.

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I completely agree with you. I'm on one of the servers where shihei has breeched the 100k mark. It's robbery cause it takes less than 30k to make a stack of toolbags.

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People play to have fun, gil has lost the majority of it's value now so if you want people to craft it instead of going off killing NM's or having fun doing other stuff you have to pay for their time. You aren't paying for the ingredients you are paying for that persons time, would you prefer 100k bags or NONE at all?

The reason people that complain won't go level the craft and make their own is the reason it's so expensive, people have a lot of other stuff they would rather do and since gil isn't as important anymore nobody can be bothered.

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Originally Posted by rog

An economics class would do some of you a lot of good.

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Of course, an economy in a fantasy game is so different from the 'real world' that such a course would by utterly pointless in this context.

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Originally Posted by Kraggy

Of course, an economy in a fantasy game is so different from the 'real world' that such a course would by utterly pointless in this context.

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You best be trollin'.

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Originally Posted by Runespider

People play to have fun, gil has lost the majority of it's value now so if you want people to craft it instead of going off killing NM's or having fun doing other stuff you have to pay for their time. You aren't paying for the ingredients you are paying for that persons time, would you prefer 100k bags or NONE at all?

The reason people that complain won't go level the craft and make their own is the reason it's so expensive, people have a lot of other stuff they would rather do and since gil isn't as important anymore nobody can be bothered.

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So what you're saying is that because they take an hour, if even that, to make 10 stacks of toolbags, rather than camping an NM they may not even get anything off of, I have to pay an amount that is 3-5x more than the cost of the materials to make it? All because I'm paying for their time? Apparently you and I value time on a far different scale then, selling for 40k-50k a stack is more than enough to cover the cost of materials and still make a profit. It won't be as big a profit margin but the profit is there. Guess what, in real life my time is worth more to me than 15 dollars an hour, yet that's all that I get paid for providing a service.

You sound like those mid east oil jerks that artificially decrease the supply to force prices up, knowing that the ignorant masses will inevitably pay the inflated cost. It's not actually costing anymore to drill for it than normal, they just know they can artificially create a supply vs demand scenario to increase profits. It's called sticky pricing, decrease the supply to force the price up, when the price peaks you then increase the supply at the inflated price. The price will stay pretty much the same in contrast to the increased supply, thus causing a major jump in the overall profit margin.

And again the same result comes up...

If you don't like the prices, go craft them yourself. If you're not going to take the time or effort to craft, buy them. Laziness or frugality, take your pick.

Fact of the matter is it's a handful of crafters still crafting and selling. Since they are few and far inbetween, they can charge as much as they want. The only thing that would drive the price down at this point would be an influx of new crafters. If there was a large enough supply on the market the price would take a dive. As you said Thia it costs that much because they know they can charge that much and people would still buy it.

So much hate! Hacha!

Rather than sell the entire product at a cheaper price and cut out the crafter (a very bad idea.. I mean, why would you want to do that aside from just intentionally being rude?) Why not sell some of the mats through a vendor at a cheaper price? Cut the costs of production a bit to help drive the cost down?

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Originally Posted by Anethia

So what you're saying is that because they take an hour, if even that, to make 10 stacks of toolbags, rather than camping an NM they may not even get anything off of, I have to pay an amount that is 3-5x more than the cost of the materials to make it? All because I'm paying for their time? Apparently you and I value time on a far different scale then, selling for 40k-50k a stack is more than enough to cover the cost of materials and still make a profit. It won't be as big a profit margin but the profit is there. Guess what, in real life my time is worth more to me than 15 dollars an hour, yet that's all that I get paid for providing a service.

You sound like those mid east oil jerks that artificially decrease the supply to force prices up, knowing that the ignorant masses will inevitably pay the inflated cost. It's not actually costing anymore to drill for it than normal, they just know they can artificially create a supply vs demand scenario to increase profits. It's called sticky pricing, decrease the supply to force the price up, when the price peaks you then increase the supply at the inflated price. The price will stay pretty much the same in contrast to the increased supply, thus causing a major jump in the overall profit margin.

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I find it offensive to be compared to those kind of folks and really 70k a stack is to low when you factor in how long it takes to gather the materials and synth the shihei themselves.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I think i just rekindled my Hatred for Crafting. Went to go craft Shihei because of this thread, My Woodworking is 73. 2 Stacks of Ink/4 Bast got me 10 stacks of Shihei +33.

So i went to buy an other Stack of Ink/2Bast to finish off a full 12 Stacks, and my results

33
33
33
33
33
33
33
33
33
33

I f**king hate crafting.

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Break
66

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Love it :) how true.

Seriously though, guess I am one of the lucky ones. I can make the black ink and buy the bast parchment to send to a friend to make shihei. We have a help system within our shell with different crafters. I can do the alchemy bit, someone else can do the cooking bit, another the woodworking, another gold, another fishes up the nebs for black ink and we all help one another with items we might need. If someone needs help farming something we do it. Anything left over goes on AH. :)

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So what you're saying is that because they take an hour, if even that, to make 10 stacks of toolbags, rather than camping an NM they may not even get anything off of, I have to pay an amount that is 3-5x more than the cost of the materials to make it? All because I'm paying for their time? Apparently you and I value time on a far different scale then, selling for 40k-50k a stack is more than enough to cover the cost of materials and still make a profit. It won't be as big a profit margin but the profit is there. Guess what, in real life my time is worth more to me than 15 dollars an hour, yet that's all that I get paid for providing a service.

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I'm assuming you intended to go do something later, you need to scratch that and go make me shihei at cost or very little profit, get to it! Oh you don't want to you say? what if I offered a higher price?

See how it works?

You people make your own arguments for the high prices because honestly it's so easy to level WW to a point ot make this you should be doing it yourself? Yet, you dont because it's not worth your time.

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Originally Posted by Runespider

You people make your own arguments for the high prices because honestly it's so easy to level WW to a point ot make this you should be doing it yourself? Yet, you dont because it's not worth your time.

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I make shihei for personal use and if I'm starving for cash and the prices are high enough I'll make them to sell.

has anyone notice the thousands of ninjas flooding port jeuno lately?

Even though its expensive I kind of understand it, I saw the prices and figured NOWAI. then I realised...

It cost me about 7k to make 1 stack myself, which 12 would be 80k, Not bad but a 12 stack from AH is 100k and I might just pay the extra 20 to avoid breaks and time consuming (as I can only make 33 with 29 ww), I think I would do this rather than pay the 150k it costs for a toolbag. Because I can put it into tool bags for like 5k myself, thus its only cost me 105k for 12 toolbags rather than the 150k on AH. (Hell I could make 45k profit here by doing piratically nothing lol)

It is high, but until its like 200k (or if u aint 150k) stfu lol im a returning character and plan to do ninja and im not scared of these prices. Making gil is too easy.

Actually Rog you are the retard. Clearly you've never heard of competative markets (and you tell everyone else to take an economics class). Starting a business is nowhere near as easy you like to make it sound. I work in an industry where competitive bidding is the norm, in other words the company that offers to do the job for the least amount of money gets the contract. The same goes with employee's, the ones who will settle for less get the job. That means that in my chosen profession I'm actually between a rock and hard place. My wage barely covers expenses and isn't seeing any improvement in the near future. But I can't go find another job and make the same pay cause there is someone out there willing to do it for less. And in an economy where landscaping companies start up and fail daily, starting my own is not an option.

You sir are the one who needs a lesson in real world economics. Just because supply increases doesn't always mean that price goes down. When it comes down to real world commodities such as food and gasoline when the supply increases people buy more, thus an equavalent increase in demand follows the supply. Therefore prices never see a significant drop.

@ runespider, if I offended I apologize, my intent was only to make a comparison between the mentalities. But my point still stands, you think all your time is worth 70k, that is where you and I disagree. If the AH showed vendors that we could choose from it would promote a more competitive market.

For example:

Buyer looks up shihei on the AH and rather than just seeing current supply and price history if who bought and who the seller was (current system doesnt give a choice of who to buy from), instead we see:
*list of people selling comes up
*list shows their respective price
*buyer can now choose who to buy from based on how much they charge

You sell for 100k
I want your customers so I under bid you @ 90k
You want them back so you under bid me @85k
The catch being that you cannot buy out my inventory unless all yours sell or you pull them out of market, and same thing goes for me trying to buy you out.

And ultimately keeps going back and forth until it reaches a balancing point. In this way your "time" actually becomes worth less because people are now trying under bid you to take your business while still making money themselves. It's not THAT different than the current system but now gives an option of who to buy from rather than just blindly guessing and hope we get a lower price.

The way it works right now people just blindly buy at the going rate. Don't try bringing up "bazaar" cause that's a flawed system where the guy next to you can buy all your stuff then turn around and sell it at a higher price. Creating a lack in supply and drive the price up to his or her liking.

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Originally Posted by Anethia

Actually Rog you are the retard. Clearly you've never heard of competative markets (and you tell everyone else to take an economics class). Starting a business is nowhere near as easy you like to make it sound. I work in an industry where competitive bidding is the norm, in other words the company that offers to do the job for the least amount of money gets the contract. The same goes with employee's, the ones who will settle for less get the job. That means that in my chosen profession I'm actually between a rock and hard place. My wage barely covers expenses and isn't seeing any improvement in the near future. But I can't go find another job and make the same pay cause there is someone out there willing to do it for less. And in an economy where landscaping companies start up and fail daily, starting my own is not an option.

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But it is an option. If you cannot succeed in it, then too bad, that is your problem.

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You sir are the one who needs a lesson in real world economics. Just because supply increases doesn't always mean that price goes down. When it comes down to real world commodities such as food and gasoline when the supply increases people buy more, thus an equavalent increase in demand follows the supply. Therefore prices never see a significant drop.

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Demand only increases because price drops. Demand does not go up simply because supply does. If prices do not change, then neither does demand. However, when supply goes up, prices tend to drop (maybe not right away, but if supply stays up, prices will gradually drop). If i did not want to buy the one X sitting on the shelf yesterday for $Y, then why would i want to buy it tomorrow for the same price, just because there is now 20 of them on the shelf? I would not. However, when the seller suddenly has 20 of the item instead of just one, then they are going to lower their price, in order to sell more of them. When they do, demand obviously increases, which causes the price to balance out at some point.

I can make most of my consumables except for food and Bloody Bolt Heads. I leveled my crafts specifically so I would not have to rely on the AH and the market controlling it. I rarely craft to sell because I hate getting in the middle of gougers and undercutters. So, to the OP, it is supply and demand. And, insisting that it isn't won't make it true. The problem is you have all these people using supplies but no one wants to take time out from their busy schedule to make their own consumables. Well then, you pay for the convenience. And when you have a ton of people who want convenience, prices go through the roof.

I bought my NIN tools until the prices went crazy. At that point, I decided to start making them again. So, if you aren't leveling a craft, which is part of the game, I feel no sympathy for you when you are paying through the nose just so you don't have to take your precious time and do something for yourself.

Just a note before people start getting confused. Profit and loss analysis is different than supply and demand. Time spent doing an activity is calculated via profit and loss, market fluctuations are supply and demand. Just like someones boss will set a wage for a said job those decisions are based on profit and loss analysis, just like people choose to craft or choose to camp/farm or both. The market selling prices are based on supply and demand. For instance just over a year ago most NIN tools were cheaper on the ah than the NPCs but now they are inflated because there are far more people buying tools it is not just the 1 type that has risen drastically.

Both the ingredients and finished product for shihei are low level synthesis. If you don't believe 100-150k is worth a few hours of work then level the crafts to make them for yourself it will only take you a few hours to get them to that point then you can have no reason at all apart from laziness to complain about the price.