Removal of Mercenaries

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Originally Posted by Xilk

Stating that you had a bad experience with Mercenary party, therefore SE should try to ban other players from having a any experience, with it, good or bad, is absurd.

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Where did I state that?

FYI: I've never used a Mercenary Party.

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Originally Posted by Sirmarki

I wouldn't call joining a merc party, paying/casting lot on equipment and then leaving, a "meaningful player interaction". They have about as much interaction with them, than they would buying a shield from an NPC.

Items that are meant to be sold don't carry the "Ex", like I said it's there for a reason.

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If FFXI is a single player RPG then what you said about ex items would have been true.

But FFXI is an MMORPG, there are (supposed to be) more than one way of getting ex gears via social element, fighting NMs "legit" with a party is not the only way.

You can cyber with LS leader for gears, help LS leader 10 years ago when he was a noob for free leech opportunities, obtain points from other events for gears, exchange some kind of deal with endgame groups for gears, and the list goes on. It's all part of MMORPG gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Isola

Mercs are bad for longevity

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There are no evidence to support this though.

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Originally Posted by Isola

If you like the game, you can't like mercs.

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My stance on merc is completely neutral unless there's evidence to support that merc is indeed bad for the game. There are no "like" nor "dislike" about them in this case.

If there's any legit reason causing myself to dislike merc, that would be certain merc are so damn rich that they set new SU5 gear stanting price at 500m because that's how much they paid for it. But again, I have no evidence to support merc is the reason behind SU5 price, so it's emotional argument/assumptions at best.

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Originally Posted by Sirmarki

Where did I state that?

FYI: I've never used a Mercenary Party.

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If that's true, then your opinion quoted below is completely worthless. You cannot make valid statements about the quality of interaction if you have no such experience.

Experience Trumps opinion 100% of the time. You imply experience in below quote, then deny it in above. Your words are wind and you have no cred.

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Originally Posted by Sirmarki

I wouldn't call joining a merc party, paying/casting lot on equipment and then leaving, a "meaningful player interaction". They have about as much interaction with them, than they would buying a shield from an NPC.

Items that are meant to be sold don't carry the "Ex", like I said it's there for a reason.

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Originally Posted by Xilk

If that's true, then your opinion quoted below is completely worthless. You cannot make valid statements about the quality of interaction if you have no such experience.

Experience Trumps opinion 100% of the time. You imply experience in below quote, then deny it in above. Your words are wind and you have no cred.

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How much quality of interaction can you get by entering a zone and lotting on an item already in a treasure pool, with a battle that you took no part in?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to establish that a scenario like that involves zero interaction other than "Cast lot". Please explain to me how that is exciting/engaging/social?

Come on, sell this 'quality of interaction' to me..

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Originally Posted by Sirmarki

How much quality of interaction can you get by entering a zone and lotting on an item already in a treasure pool, with a battle that you took no part in?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to establish that a scenario like that involves zero interaction other than "Cast lot". Please explain to me how that is exciting/engaging/social?

Come on, sell this 'quality of interaction' to me..

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If you seriously value quality of interaction, you always have the choice to change to a different server.....You can't have the best of both worlds.

One pros(can be cons for some people) that I really really like about small server is that players are forced to spend much more effort on connection building, because we just don't get to log on and join random PUG whenever we want. We absolutely have to rely on friends/ls like 75 days on small servers.


As a result, player progressions comes at slower pace because most of the time you are probably helping LS/friends instead of join PUG and get things done ASAP, or seek HQ crafters for HQ stuff/food instead of buy them straight from AH. On the other hand, the distance between players are a lot closer because everyone probably spend a LOT more time on social aspect of the game than big servers like Asura.

This is probably another reason why merc yells are a lot more common on Asura. There are multiple people on the forum cited "don't need to join endgame LS to get gears" as pros of Asura, because they don't want to commit their time to statics or endgame LS. But in the end of day, they are missing out real "quality of interaction" in game if they don't invest their time on people around them to begin with.


It's this entire "I don't need LS, I'm not going to dedicate my time to LS, I want my stuff ASAP with minimal investment" trend that gives people incentive to pay gil and get things done faster.

So you picked a server with alot less incentive to reach out to people and build meaningful connections, then complained about people not willing to build connections and just merc. Then proceed to argue that how game system should change(in a bad way) to accommodate Asura needs. It's like Asura people start CP camp complain thread and 7 pages of AH drama over CP camp because Asura are entitled to everything.

You know, sometimes you just have to accept the fact that if you want convenience, you'd have to sacrifice something*. In the case of Asura, it's convenient when it comes to do things with pick up group at random time. And (IMO) that means less opportunity to invest your time on friends/lsmate for greater return.

Don't get me wrong, I think Asura has it's perks. Especially at retaining new players from FFXIV or other modern MMO, those games also require minimal time investment on social aspects. And those players from modern MMO are probably more likely to stay on Asura if they are used to joining random party recruit in public.


Like wise, Asura is probably more appealing to people who prefer not to invest their time on a video game with internet strangers.

But that's probably the entire reason why there are higher % of people prefer to buy gears on Asura. When you have tons of people who prefer minimal social investment in a video game and picked a server for their preference, it becomes a trend.

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Originally Posted by Afania

If you seriously value quality of interaction, you always have the choice to change to a different server.....You can't have the best of both worlds.

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Huh? I moved from a quiet server, as did everyone I know (20+ people). It was a ghost town with one shout probably over a 4 hour period. There is very little quality of interaction there, unless I tend to spend most of the time talking to myself, or my trusts.
The other thing is that it is unlikely low population servers will exist for much longer. What is the point of keeping a world open when it has 150 people online?

"Like wise, Asura is probably more appealing to people who prefer not to invest their time on a video game with internet strangers. "
So, basically you are saying that they should be on 'quieter servers'?

I'm also not referring to my personal experience. There is no way it is good for anyone, on the concepts FFXI is built on.

Linkshell Chat:
Player 1: Anyone interested in forming a group and getting xxxx weapon/gear from <insert NM here>?
Player 2: I'm good thanks, got that from a merc the other day, cost me 2mil.
Player 3: Kinda busy at the moment.
Player 4: Yeh same for me, paid a merc, 2mil? I paid 3m, damn.

A opportunity right there and then where someone is looking to form a group within their Linkshell is now blown out of the water..

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Originally Posted by Sirmarki

It was a ghost town with one shout probably over a 4 hour period. There is very little quality of interaction there, unless I tend to spend most of the time talking to myself, or my trusts.

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The fact that you even mention "shout" shows that you either don't know how player interaction works on small servers, or small server just isn't for you.

Small server people don't "shout" to get things done. Instead we get things done with LS/static/friends only. In order to be successful on small servers, you absolutely can't stand in town and shout/wait for shout.

So what does that mean? That means we actively send /tell to existing groups and build connections (even if we don't know them) with groups. And maintain our relationship with those groups by offering help, participate events, or pt with them in content like ambu. Sometimes we need to change our schedule to accommodate other groups schedule so entire time can work together. Sometimes we need to change how we behave in game to build more rapport with other players so we work together better.

For example, there were one person on my server who would shout for "ambuscade please invite me" for hours. Then proceed to attack endgame LSs/groups for not inviting him and being an elitist dick, and threaten to leave for Asura if he doesn't get invite. Obviously that kind of attitude didn't get him any invite at all. And he disappear after a few weeks.

Had him sent /tell ask for an invite nicely, he would have get into more groups. But he choose not to put effort in changing his behaviour, so he doesn't get the the benefit from other groups.

On the other hand, existing endgame groups on small server clears dyna wave 3(hardest content in game) 2 weeks after release. Why do you think they are successful at clearing hard content this fast despite our avg player gear quality is lower than Asura? Because those who stayed on the server stick together like glue. There's a very strong, tight-knit community with tons of trust on small server because we absolutely need to rely on each other for everything.

And THAT is what I mean by "quality interactions". People who put thoughts and efforts on building positive relationships gets rewarded with strong, tight-knit community that stick together. Those who choose not to invest time on other people around them, they can't progress. There are actually incentive that forces people to work together on small servers.

A lot of people don't understand this. They log on small servers, sit in town, see no shout, then went "dead server" and left without trying. It's their choice to chase a different and easier life style, but just don't complain when you actually lose something chasing a different life style

You can keep complaining servers being dead or no interaction etc, but the fact is, we still clear everything and anything no matter how high the content difficulty is. And we still have no problem doing every endgame content in a full alliance. Last dyna wave 3 run we even had 22 people wanting to come and some has to sit out. If it's really "dead" like you said, we wouldn't fill up the alliance so easily.

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Originally Posted by Sirmarki

The other thing is that it is unlikely low population servers will exist for much longer. What is the point of keeping a world open when it has 150 people online?

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When it comes to the depth(not width) of player interaction, 150 is just right. I'd say even 50 is just right. It's about the size that you can learn everyone's name, know their preferred playstyle, preferred job, and adjust your behaviour to match theirs so they work together. That is way more important when it comes to quality of interaction.

Having 2000+ people on a server doesn't help in this case.

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Originally Posted by Sirmarki

I'm also not referring to my personal experience. There is no way it is good for anyone, on the concepts FFXI is built on.

Linkshell Chat:
Player 1: Anyone interested in forming a group and getting xxxx weapon/gear from <insert NM here>?
Player 2: I'm good thanks, got that from a merc the other day, cost me 2mil.
Player 3: Kinda busy at the moment.
Player 4: Yeh same for me, paid a merc, 2mil? I paid 3m, damn.

A opportunity right there and then where someone is looking to form a group within their Linkshell is now blown out of the water..

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Like I said, Asura rewards people who wants to get things done faster with minimal social investments. When you play on a server that you can log on anytime you want and join CP pt, ambu pt, SR pt and leave/rage quit pt without saying a word with no consequences, the quality of player interaction are as low as possible.

People's desire to pay for gear is just the result of everyone wants to get things done as fast as possible, with as minimal social investment as possible. Merc service is just the result of people's desire to live such lifestyle.

Asking SE to ban merc doesn't solve the fundamental issue of (many) players on Asura aren't as close to each other as small servers, and prefers faster progression over social interactions.

Oh btw, this is (roughly) what my LS chat about merc looks like the other day:

Player 1: Hey, X(name of someone outside of LS) needs a drop from Kin, he said he wants to pay merc for it.
Player 2: Oh I know X for years, I'd like to help him get it so he doesn't need to pay for merc.
Player 3: I would like to help him too.
Player 4: I can help too.
Player 1: So can we invite him to our next Kin run? Or do Kin for him sometimes. What time are you available?

Long story short: People are willing to help when they know each other for years. That is how you eliminate merc - Develop better and more tight-knit relationship. And the reason why I still play on small server is because this kind of relationship is commonly seen here.

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Originally Posted by Afania

The fact that you even mention "shout" shows that you either don't know how player interaction works on small servers, or small server just isn't for you.

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Small servers are obviously not for the vast majority, seeing as the vast majority have left the small servers.

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Originally Posted by Afania

Long story short: People are willing to help when they know each other for years. That is how you eliminate merc - Develop better and more tight-knit relationship. And the reason why I still play on small server is because this kind of relationship is commonly seen here.

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That's great if you have a solid group, trust worthy, online in the same time zones, and committed. However, this kind of 'solid group' and trust takes a long time to build up.

Have you ever played on Asura?

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Originally Posted by Sirmarki

However, this kind of 'solid group' and trust takes a long time to build up.

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Yup it does, very very long time in fact, word can't describe amount of time and hours required to build a tight-knit event group. But like everything else in FFXI, the more time you invest into something, the greater return you get.

Jobs, gears, and connections, it's all like that. If you want minimal time investment into something, especially with people, then you don't get the trust and familiarity that you look for in return, it's simple as that.


Merc is the result of this, not the reason behind it.

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Originally Posted by Afania

Yup it does, very very long time in fact, word can't describe amount of time and hours required to build a tight-knit event group. But like everything else in FFXI, the more time you invest into something, the greater return you get.

Jobs, gears, and connections, it's all like that. If you want minimal time investment into something, especially with people, then you don't get the trust and familiarity that you look for in return, it's simple as that.


Merc is the result of this, not the reason behind it.

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Actually mercing is both the result and the reason, they are not mutually exclusive. It is a vicious circle. The more people use mercs, the bigger it gets, as it becomes normalised. Lethargy, laziness, and greed become normalised. It snowballs.

The reasons why mercing is growing on certain servers, is multifaceted, and not just restricted to people not making connections, or forming trusted static groups, etc.

The availability of, and acceptance of, Gilbuying, is another main reason for the rise of mercs. Gilbuying and mercing are symbiotic, because if a player is working hard to earn a lot of Gil, why would they squander that hard-earned Gil on merc services. It makes more sense to keep that money, and do events and form friendships, as these things are time-consuming, but so is farming Gil.

When I started in 2004, on Remora at least, Gilbuying was considered a sign of personal failure. If you bought Gil, it meant that you were a low-quality Gamer, who needed to cheat to attain progress.

Similarly, using merc services also meant that you had accepted your own failure as a Gamer. You weren't even trying to overcome the challenges of the game.

This is about a change in the mainstream culture of the game, the embracing of personal failure. "I can't farm my own Gil, so I'll just buy it instead" is married to "I can't form a lasting static group of friends, and overcome the challenges in the game, so I'll just pay mercs instead."

Gilbuying and mercing both thrive when Gamers stop having the moral fortitude, and adventurer spirit, to actually overcome the game's challenges, using skills, teamwork, and perseverance.

Gilbuying and the use of mercs, are both signs of personal failure, as a Gamer. If you can't earn your own Gil, then you are not playing the game right. If you can't team-up and organise events to try and beat the game, then you are not playing the game right.

I think it is better to set your standards lower, and be realistic, than to cheat and obtain things that you didn't actually earn with your own Gamer skills.

I would sooner not obtain high-end stuff, than obtain it by cheating. Because I like to play the game as it was intended.

And I recognise that I will not always win, I will not always obtain the best stuff, but at least I'm trying to win by playing the game properly, to the best of my own Gamer skills, instead of just cheating.

It is better to be a real Gamer, with a normal amount of Gil and some decent gear, and some good adventuring friends. Rather than be a Cheat, with masses of unearned Gil, unearned top-tier gear, and no real adventuring friends.
:)

Such topic could only create a person from Asura ;)
Just jump servers.
You'll be always welcome on Bahamut ;)

What about the situation when a static group has near all the items they want aside from a few rare items? My example is omen, where some in my group still have yet to get bodies and a few hands from ou. We continue to do omen, so for us it only makes sense to sell the items which we no longer want. Yes it is possible to give them away for free, but I don't know a group of people that would do this. Altruism only goes so far to random people, why should we just give items away when we're the ones doing all the work. Or would you rather us let them fall to the ground? Which seems like a huge waste to me.

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

What about the situation when a static group has near all the items they want aside from a few rare items? My example is omen, where some in my group still have yet to get bodies and a few hands from ou. We continue to do omen, so for us it only makes sense to sell the items which we no longer want. Yes it is possible to give them away for free, but I don't know a group of people that would do this. Altruism only goes so far to random people, why should we just give items away when we're the ones doing all the work. Or would you rather us let them fall to the ground? Which seems like a huge waste to me.

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A bit like the sheer amount of stuff that gets wasted through mercs who can't sell stuff within 5 minutes because they are charging an extortionate rate?

if its going to 'drop to the floor' anyway, just give it away. Why would you need/want to charge someone in the situation you have mentioned?

Now its gone from crazy, to just laughable.

https://i.imgur.com/ol4DSod.gif

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Originally Posted by Sirmarki

A bit like the sheer amount of stuff that gets wasted through mercs who can't sell stuff within 5 minutes because they are charging an extortionate rate?

if its going to 'drop to the floor' anyway, just give it away. Why would you need/want to charge someone in the situation you have mentioned?

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FFXI economy is based off of the free market where we(the players) set the rules.

It is no different like the high end fruit market in japan.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/kevintang/i...e-fruit-parlor

For my analogy, we the players selling the excess goods are the farmers. The fruits come in nq and hq. The nq ones sold at the lower rate, the hq ones sold at auction, or in our case kept. I'm using the fruit analogy since fruit have a limited life span which is akin to the game 5 min pool.

So you're saying instead of selling the lower fruit we should just give them away, even though we did all the hard work to get them? FFXI economy is based of the real world, no one in the real would do this. You think the farmers of these expensive fruit should give them away? Or just let them fall to the ground and rot and get no money for them?

Us selling the stuff we don't want is no different than these farmers in the real world selling the nq fruit at these high prices.

There is free will in game too, my group does NOT FORCE people to come with us and trade the gil. Every time I yell, I have "negotiate" in my yell. If you don't like the price, negotiate, if we can't reach a deal then just don't go. How is this any different to the real world (ie when buying a home) where people that have goods and want to sell them to people that want to buy them, but don't want to pay the listed price.

If you truly believe in the situation where stuff you don't need should be given away, when you get a drop you don't need do you just give it to the first person that needs it, instead of selling it on the AH. Or you should be just tossing the items you no longer want to the ground.

Just because these items have the EX tag makes no difference in the comparison, we just have buyers ready to go in case an item drops.

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/20...82-d64hnlv.png

The REAL issue is the RMT that are buying/selling gil. Getting rid of merc is not the issue, get rid of the RMT that add gil to the economy. Less gil in the economy and prices will drop. IE get rid of all the botters in Palborough Mines and the illgotten shields that were created from botting would solve more issues.

Not even close. The real issue is Sparks. End of story.

Everything is SEVERELY f-ed up because you can make a hundred million gil in 4 hours.

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Originally Posted by Isola

Not even close. The real issue is Sparks. End of story.

Everything is SEVERELY f-ed up because you can make a hundred million gil in 4 hours.

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That's a rather extreme exaggeration, unless you are talking about lottery-luck HQ streaks for a crafter or an extreme multiboxer(. Even if we're only talking 1mil in that time tho, that is like 1000% more than what most of us made Back In The Day™, so you do have a point. Along with the increased income potential however, gil has severely devaluated since then, so it really doesn't have as much meaning now, so people are more willing to part with large quantities of it.

I say that the true root of all evil in FFXI is simply that (most?) players are humans, and humans are jerks by default.

Bring out the ban stick, the enormous amount of detrimental ToS violations that occur every min of every hour in game is how the in-game econ gets corrupted. There's a % of users that break the ToS to obtain obscene amounts of gil or item collection related to crafting merchandise with the intentions of generating the illegitimate masses of gil. Whatever their violation is; be it automated item farming, monopolization of an item source, RMT sell of gil, RMT purchase of gil or corruption of in-game content mechanics. Whatever the crime is, it is detrimental to all those who obey ToS rules. Much of this could be lazily blamed on content being created that is weak to exploitation, but no matter the difficulty there is going to be a % of users that will attain the ability to exploit any difficulty of content as it concerns player to environment interactions. The two resources the game provider (SE staff) have are the removal of accounts that are corrupting the intentions of content mechanics and environmental interactions, and the correct development of content to the point where there is absolutely no capability of gaining obscene advantages through breaking ToS rules.

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Originally Posted by orionis

Now its gone from crazy, to just laughable.

https://i.imgur.com/ol4DSod.gif

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You think they're serious?

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Originally Posted by Justuas

You think they're serious?

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I believe they actually are.

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Originally Posted by Sirmarki

I believe they actually are.

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I thought they are trolling, lol.

There's no such differentiation on Assura.

They tried this, it was called Voidwatch and it was 100% awful.

Voidwatch was the best and only good event they ever made. It's the closest they ever got to actual balance.

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Originally Posted by Isola

Voidwatch was the best and only good event they ever made. It's the closest they ever got to actual balance.

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You're gonna be happy then if they're going to release voidwatch 2.0. I've read rumours.

I would, but they'll screw it up. And there aren't enough players left to do it well. And Assuran shout is literal cancer.

Look like it or not their are people that just want to get the gear and then enjoy the game i'm sure you and people like you don't believe it but it's true hell even if I manage to get all the gear and that is a big if I will still stick around.

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Originally Posted by chiefhunglo

Look like it or not their are people that just want to get the gear and then enjoy the game i'm sure you and people like you don't believe it but it's true hell even if I manage to get all the gear and that is a big if I will still stick around.

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What part of the game are they enjoying, when they aren't even participating in battles (with LS members/friends) that make the game enjoyable?

Instead paying a stranger, and standing there, to obtain said gear.

PS: Are you able to use full stops? That was a painful read.

Your exaggerating not everyone is paying for mercs.

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Originally Posted by chiefhunglo

Your exaggerating not everyone is paying for mercs.

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I'm going to assume that you are replying to me.

Can you point out to me where I said "Everyone is paying for mercs"?

If everyone's not buying mercs how are they a threat to the game?

That's already been answered.

I would be considered a merc.I have been playing for a great deal of time.I stopped going in main parties long ago.if I see a shout for help on any nm that I kno I can help with or mats that I have because all I do is farm... I provide them and either ah cost whatever the person can afford or free if they b a newb .I have given away Millon's in gil to other players in the long time.e I've been playing.back when choco rentals could go as high 15 k and zone was in the city.not just a new area.so I am a merch

Merc being a blanket term here, not all bad. It's the garbage that overcharge and take advantage of new players that need to be removed.

Mercenary work isn't all taking advantage of new people who don't know better, but they're the ones that are a real problem.

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Originally Posted by elqplau

I've been playing.back when choco rentals could go as high 15 k and zone was in the city.not just a new area.so I am a merch

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Well back in my day, we didn't rent chocobos! you wanted a chocobo, you go into the wilds and wrangle them yerself~!