Many people cheating, automated bot to farm drops to synth spheres for Escutcheon

Yes the damage has already been done. Though this could be SE's plan to reduce prices, but I think the cheated shields still hurt the economy as likely they are made by gilsellers, which in turn supplies the gil for those that are gilbuyers that cheat. Whenever possible I report both the bot farmer and the synther as they are in party together. If it's only me and 2 others in zone in party it's clearly the bot and the synther in party. Other times it's not as clear but whenever I can determine I report them both.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

Yes the damage has already been done. Though this could be SE's plan to reduce prices, but I think the cheated shields still hurt the economy as likely they are made by gilsellers, which in turn supplies the gil for those that are gilbuyers that cheat. Whenever possible I report both the bot farmer and the synther as they are in party together. If it's only me and 2 others in zone in party it's clearly the bot and the synther in party. Other times it's not as clear but whenever I can determine I report them both.

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Don't forget that making the shields takes a TON of gil out of the economy as well. They are FAR from free. :x

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

Don't forget that making the shields takes a TON of gil out of the economy as well. They are FAR from free. :x

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It's not really THAT much, I'm farming spheres and my npc costs for 6 step skillchains current projections it will cost around 130m.

It's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay higher than that if you go to the t3 catalysts.

Its 100k~ for 15 spirit (in just catalyst) and the odds of breaking get higher as you go.

120,000 (total spirit counting possible breaks)/ 15(spirit for full synthchain) x 100k(cost for catalyst) ~ 800,000,000 for the shield if you go t3 catalyst, spheres are free, better double check how you think its going to only cost 130m

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

I always do submit a GM call and a report to the STF whenever I encounter automated bot farmers.

And today I did not encounter 3 of the bots that I've reported before, so hopefully my efforts are paying off.

For those on asura or other servers that also see cheaters that may not know the link here is the exact link to the STF.

http://support.na.square-enix.com/co...php?id=20&la=1

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Guess I spoke too soon the 3 cheaters I reported still around today, where is the support SE they were clearly cheating, less you really believe they have OCD have to run the exact paths EVERY time for HOURS on end with ZERO breaks. That even they see the room is empty their OCD is so great they have to go in and follow the EXACT same pathways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Halley

It's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay higher than that if you go to the t3 catalysts.

Its 100k~ for 15 spirit (in just catalyst) and the odds of breaking get higher as you go.

120,000 (total spirit counting possible breaks)/ 15(spirit for full synthchain) x 100k(cost for catalyst) ~ 800,000,000 for the shield if you go t3 catalyst, spheres are free, better double check how you think its going to only cost 130m

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How is it higher? I am using 6 step skillchains which use T3 catalysts. I have recorded all my synths so far and projecting based on the amount of spirit I gain per 6 step will be about 130m. I have accounted for all my breaks so far.

With the double light/dark, my average is 31 spirit per 6 step. I base my estimation off my existing data that I keep and project to 100%

How many catalyst do you burn in one chain for 31 spirit? I was thinking it takes 2 40k per 6 step, but it's only 1?

I'm assuming its 300 300 300 8000 40000 40000 < that's ~ 90k
Or is it 300 300 300 8000 40000 ~ 50k

100,000 / 31 = 3225 x 50k, comes out to 150m but no accounting for breaks and bg says "double light" only gives 15, not 31

Quote:

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Level 1 Synthchain:

Choose Wind Crystal icon.png Wind Crystal + Deton. Sphere icon.png Detonation Sphere, you will perform a wind synthesis. Follow this up by a Earth Crystal icon.png Earth Crystal + Sciss. Sphere icon.png Scission Sphere to create a Scission synthchain onto the device, which is a successful level 1 synthchain.

Continuing Level 1 Synthchain:

From here, you are able to then use a Fire Crystal icon.png Fire Crystal + Lique. Sphere icon.png Liquefaction Sphere to make a Liquefaction synthchain.

Upgrading to Level 2 Synthchain:

You may then follow with a Lightng. Crystal icon.png Lightning Crystal + Impac. Sphere icon.png Impaction Sphere to then create a level 2 Fusion synthchain.

Upgrading to Level 3 Synthchain:

After the above Fusion synthchain, you should then be able to use a Wind Crystal icon.png Wind Crystal + Fragm. Sphere icon.png Fragmentation Sphere to create a Light Synthchain.

Continuing Level 3 Synthchain:

You may then combine this with Light Crystal icon.png Light Crystal + Light Sphere icon.png Light Sphere for another Light synthesis chain.

Although this is technically Double Light, you only receive 15 spirit.

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Only have what's posted to go by, I would never be stupid enough to actually make the shield myself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Halley

How many catalyst do you burn in one chain for 31 spirit? I was thinking it takes 2 40k per 6 step, but it's only 1?

I'm assuming its 300 300 300 8000 40000 40000 < that's ~ 90k
Or is it 300 300 300 8000 40000 ~ 50k

100,000 / 31 = 3225 x 50k, comes out to 150m but no accounting for breaks and bg says "double light" only gives 15, not 31



Only have what's posted to go by, I would never be stupid enough to actually make the shield myself.

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Well my data is based on ACTUAL data. You are reading bg wiki wrong, where it says "Although this is technically Double Light, you only receive 15 spirit." it is saying that even though it is double light you only receive the 15 spirit, same as the level 3 skillchain. It is emphasizing that even though it is T4 light you do not get any MORE spirt than the T3.

The example posted on BGwiki IF all nq, will be 1,2,2,5,15,15 for a total of 40 spirit.

Catalyst cost would be 300 x 4 T1, 1x T2, and 1x T3, for a total of 49,200 gil.

And it is not stupid, some of us have done everything else we wanted to do in game, a T4 shield is a long term goal that some of us strive for.

No more stupid than building any REMA. Escutcheons are gamechangers for crafting, same as the performance/desirability bump you see from REMA vs non-REMA. Shield will recoup it's gil costs sooner than those too. :3

Instead of wasting the 3.5 BILLION gil the shield is worth, you could be doing literally anything else and it would be more worth while.

You can sell the spheres you're wasting and buy 12 mythics / every single +1 piece of gear in the game instead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Halley

How many catalyst do you burn in one chain for 31 spirit? I was thinking it takes 2 40k per 6 step, but it's only 1?

I'm assuming its 300 300 300 8000 40000 40000 < that's ~ 90k
Or is it 300 300 300 8000 40000 ~ 50k

100,000 / 31 = 3225 x 50k, comes out to 150m but no accounting for breaks and bg says "double light" only gives 15, not 31



Only have what's posted to go by, I would never be stupid enough to actually make the shield myself.

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Try this recipe as an example:
Induration Sphere (Ice Crystal) :: gives 1 spirit / (2 if HQ1, 3 if HQ2, 4 if HQ3), then...
Reverberation Sphere (Water Crystal) :: 5 spirit / (8 for HQ1, 10 for HQ2) then...
Fusion Sphere (Fire Crystal) :: 15 spirit / (29 for HQ1?) then ...
Light Sphere (Light crystal) :: 15 spirit / (?? for HQ1?)
.
This nets out 36 spirit for 2 MC-01, 1 MC-02, and 1 MC-03's . Even more if you get a HQ result as I have a few times. (Haven't gotten HQ on the ?? ones yet).
.
Another path to follow with little higher cost is:
Induration / Ice >> (1/2)
Reverberation / Water >> (2/4)
Distortion / Ice >> (5/9)
Gravitation / Earth >> (15/29)
Darkness / Dark. (15/??).
.
I have more but I'll post them in bgwiki as a recipe list as I get to them. Hope it helps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Halley

Instead of wasting the 3.5 BILLION gil the shield is worth, you could be doing literally anything else and it would be more worth while.

You can sell the spheres you're wasting and buy 12 mythics / every single +1 piece of gear in the game instead.

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I'm not sure there is any way to actually spend 3.5 BILLION gil building a shield, and IF there is a way, you would have to be lacking any of the business/economic knowledge necessary to be successful with crafting in the first place.

Theoretically, if you were to spam only T1>T1(T2SC) chains, then you could actually spend as little as 10mil. Would take forever and a day (16,667 chains) but it would work. XD

Doing T1>T1(T2SC)>T2(T3SC) all the way up would be ~41mil (4,762 chains.)
Using the above 4-step, T1>T1(T2SC)>T2(T3SC)>T3(T3SC) would be 135mil (2,778 chains.)
Using the above 5-step, T1>T1(T2SC)>T2(T2SC)>T2(T3SC)>T3(T3SC) would be ~138mil (2,440 chains.)
Using the most expensive option I can come up with, T3 > T3 = T3(T3SC), would be ~267mil (3,334 chains.)

I think that chaining T1 spheres between T1-T2 is the most bang for the buck.
Scission > Liquefaction (T1 Liquefaction) > Impaction (T2 Fusion) > Detonation (T1 Detonation) > Compression (T2 Gravitation) > Distortion (T3 Darkness) = 1+2+5+2+5+15 = 30 spirit for 9500 gil, 3,334 chains, ~32mil total.

The price only really skyrockets when you start including T3s (jumps from ~41mil > 135mil) and buying spheres instead of farming them, but in that case you are paying to save time. Patience will save you a fortune. I'm curious where you got your 3.5 BILLION quote from though since you are not stupid enough to make one yourself. XD

Also, spheres are probably about to price crash into Eschalixir territory. lol T2/T3s might still be worth something, but are still quite likely to drop, and T1s are gonna be trash gil-wise not too far in the future.

My math was done assuming that the tiers used are correct, no HQs, chains give 1sp/T1 starter, 2sp/T1SC, 5sp/T2SC, 15sp/T3SC and ignore elements since all that matters is that the tier sequence is possible/correct.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere, since I do need to learn this stuff anyway. ^^;;

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

Theoretically, if you were to spam only T1>T1(T2SC) chains, then you could actually spend as little as 10mil. Would take forever and a day (16,667 chains) but it would work. XD

Doing T1>T1(T2SC)>T2(T3SC) all the way up would be ~41mil (4,762 chains.)
Using the above 4-step, T1>T1(T2SC)>T2(T3SC)>T3(T3SC) would be 135mil (2,778 chains.)
Using the above 5-step, T1>T1(T2SC)>T2(T2SC)>T2(T3SC)>T3(T3SC) would be ~138mil (2,440 chains.)
Using the most expensive option I can come up with, T3 > T3 = T3(T3SC), would be ~267mil (3,334 chains.)

I think that chaining T1 spheres between T1-T2 is the most bang for the buck.
Scission > Liquefaction (T1 Liquefaction) > Impaction (T2 Fusion) > Detonation (T1 Detonation) > Compression (T2 Gravitation) > Distortion (T3 Darkness) = 1+2+5+2+5+15 = 30 spirit for 9500 gil, 3,334 chains, ~32mil total. ;

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I'm not in total agreements with your chain calcs. I calced mine in number of sets projecting around 3200 sets of 6 step skillchain.

As for your 32mil total, I don't believe that skillchain path is possible, as you have a T2 burst going back to a T1. I've never seen this possible and any skillchain calculator I've looked at does not give this option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by "eliroo" pid=3314833

So How much gil is required outright for the Synth Catalysts if you do only 6 steps?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by "Asura.Toralin" pid=3314839

3.5 billion

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https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/5...tage/10/#reply

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

I'm not in total agreements with your chain calcs. I calced mine in number of sets projecting around 3200 sets of 6 step skillchain.

As for your 32mil total, I don't believe that skillchain path is possible, as you have a T2 burst going back to a T1. I've never seen this possible and any skillchain calculator I've looked at does not give this option.

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It most definitely is possible. ^^ I do it as my SOP when soloing.

With skillchains, there are recursive T1 chains possible like: Liquefaction > Impaction (Fusion) > Liquefaction (Liquefaction) > Impaction (Fusion) > etc. Once you step up to using a real T2 to make a T3SC though, I don't think that it can be brought back down.

With craftchains, we're not allowed to repeat the same chain, so have to get more creative, but it most definitely should work (as long as they really do mirror skillchain mechanics perfectly and I'm not misinformed.)

For your calcs, did you include a T3? I didn't in order to keep catalyst/gil cost down to a minimum. Spirit values are determined by the SC produced and not the sphere used, right? Are my numbers for the amount of spirit gained per step in my 6-step correct?

I posted my setup in previous posts

The example posted on BGwiki IF all nq, will be 1,2,2,5,15,15 for a total of 40 spirit.

Catalyst cost would be 300 x 4 T1, 1x T2, and 1x T3, for a total of 49,200 gil.

Spirit value is determined by result of the synth,either NQ or HQ

Have you actually tried
Scission > Liquefaction (T1 Liquefaction) > Impaction (T2 Fusion) > Detonation (T1 Detonation) > Compression (T2 Gravitation) > Distortion (T3 Darkness)

Because the skillchain calculator I use do not show this as possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Halley

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/5...tage/10/#reply

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You are conveniently leaving out the very next two posts. :3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by "eliroo" pid=3314843

Yikes that is just the the MC-I Items? That is insane.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by "Asura.Toralin" pid=3315098

no thats for the spheres

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Admittedly, Toralin didn't give a proper answer to the question the first time.

It's not the best argument to quote the guy aiming to complete the very first Escutcheon, since sphere costs have come down since the initial gold-rush and he had deep enough pockets to not care about the outrageous cost at the time when he was buying every sphere he could get his hands on.

I was calculating out the cost of catalysts only. Should probably tack something on to cover crystal costs as well for a full estimate tbh, but didn't want to complicate the math just yet since I'm still trying to figure things out. Spheres are also looking to become free-ish and easily farmed, and probably shouldn't be factored into a discussion rooted in farming your own (and the hassles of dealing with possibly automated competition.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

I posted my setup in previous posts

The example posted on BGwiki IF all nq, will be 1,2,2,5,15,15 for a total of 40 spirit.

Catalyst cost would be 300 x 4 T1, 1x T2, and 1x T3, for a total of 49,200 gil.

Spirit value is determined by result of the synth,either NQ or HQ

Have you actually tried
Scission > Liquefaction (T1 Liquefaction) > Impaction (T2 Fusion) > Detonation (T1 Detonation) > Compression (T2 Gravitation) > Distortion (T3 Darkness)

Because the skillchain calculator I use do not show this as possible.

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I'm still leveling up the percentage on my shield, so I'm not on this part yet and can't confirm in-game myself, but it really should work as an actual skillchain. I can confirm that Warlike Patrick (BST Jug pet) can easily 4-step by bouncing between the same two Ready moves (which are Liquefaction and Impaction.) It's possible for 2x of these pets to 7-step doing the same thing.
Check what your calculator says happens for: Liquefaction > Impaction > Liquefaction > Impaction. If it spits out an error, then it's a problem with the calculator and it just hasn't been made to handle somewhat rare-use cases like juggling T1s rather than aiming for the highest tier SC possible.

YOU were calculating the catalyst only.

-I- said you're better off selling the spheres for the money.

BUYING the spheres (and by extension using, instead of selling) wastes billions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Halley

Instead of wasting the 3.5 BILLION gil the shield is worth, you could be doing literally anything else and it would be more worth while.

You can sell the spheres you're wasting and buy 12 mythics / every single +1 piece of gear in the game instead.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Halley

YOU were calculating the catalyst only.

-I- said you're better off selling the spheres for the money.

BUYING the spheres (and by extension using, instead of selling) wastes billions.

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That's only if the spheres are still worth billions, which I rather doubt at this point, and am sure they won't be in a month.

As of right now, on Asura:
T3 = 300k/ea, going down
T2 = Frag: 250k/ea, others: 100k/ea
T1 = 30k-50k/ea, going down

You are welcome to math it out if you really want to figure out how much it would cost to BUY a shield right now, but most crafters won't be going that route. Honestly, if the new cards work the way I think they will, then all of the above are going to crash within a month.

They won't be worth 1g in a week if they add stackable desynthable cards that bots can go bananas on.

But currently.

When they add stackable desynthable cards, I'll be making one of every shield myself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Halley

They won't be worth 1g in a week if they add stackable desynthable cards that bots can go bananas on.

But currently.

When they add stackable desynthable cards, I'll be making one of every shield myself.

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Awesome! :D Don't forget about the non-sphere-related costs tho. Just because spheres will be easy to farm does not make the rest of the shield become free even if the spheres basically are. (Which was why I started mathing out the catalyst costs. lol)

* ~1mil Guild Points < What it's going to take me for LC doing lv70 kits for avg of 56CP per kit
* Mats for annoying ROE synths, most of which are not exactly cheap
* Mats for kits, costs vary drastically between crafts. My LC kit cost me a fixed 7200gil each. GS looks closer to 30k each.
* Mats/crystals for garbage synths for leveling up the percentage on the shield. I'm estimating ~5k-6k crystals for all 4 stages based on my experience so far.
* Crystals to desynth items/cards into spheres. ~20k+ successes needed. Probably 3x-5x that to cover breaks.
* Crystals to perform the craftchains. ~20k based on the estimates in this thread.

... I'm looking at doing this all over again at least 4x more after my LC shield is done. T_T

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

I'm still leveling up the percentage on my shield, so I'm not on this part yet and can't confirm in-game myself, but it really should work as an actual skillchain. I can confirm that Warlike Patrick (BST Jug pet) can easily 4-step by bouncing between the same two Ready moves (which are Liquefaction and Impaction.) It's possible for 2x of these pets to 7-step doing the same thing.
Check what your calculator says happens for: Liquefaction > Impaction > Liquefaction > Impaction. If it spits out an error, then it's a problem with the calculator and it just hasn't been made to handle somewhat rare-use cases like juggling T1s rather than aiming for the highest tier SC possible.

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Site I use accounts for beast pets too. I really don't see how those are possible via the elements, seems to violate the skillchain property of first to second property rule.
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Skillchain

Now IF you meant, Impaction to Liquifaction(liquifaction burst) then to Impaction for (Fusion) that would work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

Site I use accounts for beast pets too. I really don't see how those are possible via the elements, seems to violate the skillchain property of first to second property rule.
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Skillchain

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It still works in-game. :3 My personal explanation is that the newest attribute is accounted for as a secondary attribute for continuing skillchain purposes. So Liquefaction > Impaction = Fusion (w/ secondary Impaction), etc. So long as the next WS can chain with either Fusion OR Impaction, the skillchain will continue appropriately.

Try checking Brain Crush > Tail Blow > Brain Crush > Tail Blow and see if an error pops out. If it doesn't give the SC I gave above, then the calculator is most definitely wrong.

My views on the rest of this whole debate aside, all of the calculators and wiki entries do say that it's impossible to go from T2 > T1.

I just tested Brain Crush > Tail Blow > Brain Crush in game, and got:
Brain Crush > Tail Blow (Fusion) > Brain Crush = Nothing

I could not seem to make your chain work in game, but I'm open to trying more if you're sure that such a thing is possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Selindrile

My views on the rest of this whole debate aside, all of the calculators and wiki entries do say that it's impossible to go from T2 > T1.

I just tested Brain Crush > Tail Blow > Brain Crush in game, and got:
Brain Crush > Tail Blow (Fusion) > Brain Crush = Nothing

I could not seem to make your chain work in game, but I'm open to trying more if you're sure that such a thing is possible.

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It does work is the thing though. :x I don't know why it wouldn't work for you unless your timing was off...

My timing was the same as other three steps I had no issues with.
I remain skeptical until I can see someone produce it in game, on a video or in person.

So, tested for recursion using skillchains w/ Selindrile witnessing (thanks again Sel! :D) but was unable to reproduce what I swear I've been seeing for the entire time that I've been back. ._.;; I'm chalking it up as senility on my part for now, and now it's going to bug me until I can prove to myself that it does not work, but oh well. ><;;

Correcting my prior chain:
Impaction > Liquefaction (T1 Liquefaction) > Scission (T1 Scission) > Detonation (T1 Detonation) > Compression (T2 Gravitation) > Distortion (T3 Darkness) = 1+2+2+2+5+15 = 27 spirit for 9500 gil, 3,704 chains, still ~32mil total catalyst cost.

Was thinking of what I said about crystal costs, so here's the additional info for the breakdowns I did earlier:

T1>T1(T2SC) = 10mil catalyst ~ 16,667 chains ~ 33,334 crystals
T1>T1(T2SC)>T2(T3SC) = 41mil catalyst ~ 4,762 chains ~ 14,286 crystals
T1>T1(T2SC)>T2(T3SC)>T3(T3SC) = 135mil catalyst ~ 2,778 chains ~ 11,112 crystals
T1>T1(T2SC)>T2(T2SC)>T2(T3SC)>T3(T3SC) = 138mil catalyst ~ 2,440 chains ~ 12,200 crystals
T3 > T3 = T3(T3SC) = 267mil catalyst ~ 3,334 chains ~ 6,668 crystals
My corrected 6-step = 32mil catalyst ~ 3,704 chains ~ 22,224 crystals

By current Asura avg price of 76.5k/stack for crystal clusters (so 532g/ea crystal), crystals are an additional 3.6mil-17.8mil IF you buy every crystal you use. Multiply that by 4x-5x to get the actual total crystal cost including crystals to desynth the Cards/Items while including breaks. Each crystal used above also corresponds to a sphere being used, so after working out crystal costs, my conclusions so far are:
* The simple T1>T1(T2SC)>T2(T3SC) model is actually the best value, as there's only a ~5mil projected difference in gil cost compared to my budget 6-step but a massive difference in crystal/sphere costs which would be a massive difference in time spent farming AND chaining.
*The 4-step is the most reasonable high-roller model to use if you have the extra 90-100mil to blow lying around which would buy you ~30% less farming time spent. Whether it's worth it or not depends on the new increased drop rates for those 6x items listed + drop rates on Cards + new quantities produced per desynth.
* Oh, and the 5-step is strictly worse than the 4-step, with higher overall costs all around. :x

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

So, tested for recursion using skillchains w/ Selindrile witnessing (thanks again Sel! :D) but was unable to reproduce what I swear I've been seeing for the entire time that I've been back. ._.;; I'm chalking it up as senility on my part for now, and now it's going to bug me until I can prove to myself that it does not work, but oh well. ><;;

Correcting my prior chain:
Impaction > Liquefaction (T1 Liquefaction) > Scission (T1 Scission) > Detonation (T1 Detonation) > Compression (T2 Gravitation) > Distortion (T3 Darkness) = 1+2+2+2+5+15 = 27 spirit for 9500 gil, 3,704 chains, still ~32mil total catalyst cost.

Was thinking of what I said about crystal costs, so here's the additional info for the breakdowns I did earlier:

T1>T1(T2SC) = 10mil catalyst ~ 16,667 chains ~ 33,334 crystals
T1>T1(T2SC)>T2(T3SC) = 41mil catalyst ~ 4,762 chains ~ 14,286 crystals
T1>T1(T2SC)>T2(T3SC)>T3(T3SC) = 135mil catalyst ~ 2,778 chains ~ 11,112 crystals
T1>T1(T2SC)>T2(T2SC)>T2(T3SC)>T3(T3SC) = 138mil catalyst ~ 2,440 chains ~ 12,200 crystals
T3 > T3 = T3(T3SC) = 267mil catalyst ~ 3,334 chains ~ 6,668 crystals
My corrected 6-step = 32mil catalyst ~ 3,704 chains ~ 22,224 crystals

By current Asura avg price of 76.5k/stack for crystal clusters (so 532g/ea crystal), crystals are an additional 3.6mil-17.8mil IF you buy every crystal you use. Multiply that by 4x-5x to get the actual total crystal cost including crystals to desynth the Cards/Items while including breaks. Each crystal used above also corresponds to a sphere being used, so after working out crystal costs, my conclusions so far are:
* The simple T1>T1(T2SC)>T2(T3SC) model is actually the best value, as there's only a ~5mil projected difference in gil cost compared to my budget 6-step but a massive difference in crystal/sphere costs which would be a massive difference in time spent farming AND chaining.
*The 4-step is the most reasonable high-roller model to use if you have the extra 90-100mil to blow lying around which would buy you ~30% less farming time spent. Whether it's worth it or not depends on the new increased drop rates for those 6x items listed + drop rates on Cards + new quantities produced per desynth.
* Oh, and the 5-step is strictly worse than the 4-step, with higher overall costs all around. :x

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All these calculations assume ZERO breaks which is impossible, you will break some. So the projections are still low. It all depends what cards actually do in todays update. The cards may drastically change calculations.

If theyre seriously dumb enough to make stackable sphere cards with higher than 1% drop rate on things that aren't apex mobs (a lot of qualifiers there) shield becomes free. Catalyst is negligible if that happens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

All these calculations assume ZERO breaks which is impossible, you will break some. So the projections are still low. It all depends what cards actually do in todays update. The cards may drastically change calculations.

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OK, so if we're aiming for precision, my projections leave out breaks AND HQs. I don't have any idea on what either rate is, so I can't include them. Given that both break/HQ rates will be the same across paths for the most part (I think,) that only affects the final cost number and shouldn't skew any of the general trends among what I've laid out. If break rates change based on variables like step#, tier of sphere, tier of chain, etc., then I imagine that it would point us even more towards the lower cost, lower-tier focused options, like what I said earlier. Don't think I said anything about these being complete cost quotes. ^^;; Estimates are estimates, and can definitely be refined further. Everything I'm doing so far is already stated to be disregarding sphere cost in the base projections, (since we're talking about farming them ourselves and not buying,) so since I'm already assuming that sphere cost is 0g in the beginning, cards won't really affect that portion of the projections even if they crap out a stack of spheres per success. The only cost for spheres anywhere in my math is for the associated crystals used to desynth them and chain them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Halley

If theyre seriously dumb enough to make stackable sphere cards with higher than 1% drop rate on things that aren't apex mobs (a lot of qualifiers there) shield becomes free. Catalyst is negligible if that happens.

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I'm not sure that up to 267mil in catalyst costs alone (baseline, no HQs/breaks included) can be called "negligible" even if you're gilcapped. :|

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

OK, so if we're aiming for precision, my projections leave out breaks AND HQs. I don't have any idea on what either rate is, so I can't include them. Given that both break/HQ rates will be the same across paths for the most part (I think,) that only affects the final cost number and shouldn't skew any of the general trends among what I've laid out. If break rates change based on variables like step#, tier of sphere, tier of chain, etc., then I imagine that it would point us even more towards the lower cost, lower-tier focused options, like what I said earlier. Don't think I said anything about these being complete cost quotes. ^^;; Estimates are estimates, and can definitely be refined further. Everything I'm doing so far is already stated to be disregarding sphere cost in the base projections, (since we're talking about farming them ourselves and not buying,) so since I'm already assuming that sphere cost is 0g in the beginning, cards won't really affect that portion of the projections even if they crap out a stack of spheres per success. The only cost for spheres anywhere in my math is for the associated crystals used to desynth them and chain them.



I'm not sure that up to 267mil in catalyst costs alone (baseline, no HQs/breaks included) can be called "negligible" even if you're gilcapped. :|

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That's why my estimation of 130m with 6 step skillchain(double light or dark) is likely more accurate since I do account for breaks and hqs in my data collection. I have the total spirit gained, divided by how many sets I've attempted, giving me the AVERAGE spirit/set, which I then use in the 100k spirit/average equation giving me the number of projected sets will take to complete. Based on the number of sets I then multiply by each catalyst cost giving me my 130m projection.

Cost wise yes likely T1 To T2 is best cost/set ratio, BUT that all depends on today's update. They really should give more spirit for the T4(dark/light) than normal, else there is no real incentive to do them.

Current ratios
T1s, account for 2.47% of total cost
T2s, account for 23.40% of total cost
and
T3s, account for 74.13% of total cost

so yes cost wise using only T1, T2s make sense, but I still have to make calculations on how many sets this would take by filtering my data without T3s.

I filtered my data with only T1 T2s and would take 4,688 sets at a total cost of around 50m.
So it is cheaper but it's 1,467 sets more. Total orb wise that's 19,326 orbs(6 step) vs 23,440 orbs(5 step)

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

That's why my estimation of 130m with 6 step skillchain(double light or dark) is likely more accurate since I do account for breaks and hqs in my data collection. I have the total spirit gained, divided by how many sets I've attempted, giving me the AVERAGE spirit/set, which I then use in the 100k spirit/average equation giving me the number of projected sets will take to complete. Based on the number of sets I then multiply by each catalyst cost giving me my 130m projection.

Cost wise yes likely T1 To T2 is best cost/set ratio, BUT that all depends on today's update. They really should give more spirit for the T4(dark/light) than normal, else there is no real incentive to do them.

Current ratios
T1s, account for 2.47% of total cost
T2s, account for 23.40% of total cost
and
T3s, account for 74.13% of total cost

so yes cost wise using only T1, T2s make sense, but I still have to make calculations on how many sets this would take by filtering my data without T3s.

I filtered my data with only T1 T2s and would take 4,688 sets at a total cost of around 50m.
So it is cheaper but it's 1,467 sets more. Total orb wise that's 19,326 orbs(6 step) vs 23,440 orbs(5 step)

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My numbers are intended as a baseline. Breaks will drive them up, HQs will drive them down, but until someone has a solid dataset per variable, I wouldn't want to try to shoehorn small dataset based guesstimates or wild assertions into them, which is the best I've encountered from others so far.. :/ With what you have recorded, can you be certain about the break rate for a T2-orb used as 1st, 3rd, or 5th? How about the HQ rate for a T3-orb used 3rd or 6th? Can we be certain that HQ/break rate(s) do or don't depend on any of the possible variables? Not being facetious btw. I'm saying that I want those answers before doing a flawed deep analysis vs working on a welldone baseline that still has declared undetermined variables. (I hope I'm not being confusing. ;;>_>)

There has been not a peep made pre-patch of any changes being made to spirit values, so I'm doubtful that'll happen today. T3 orbs have always felt to me like they're intended to be a "time shortcut for the rich" not required usage items.

Initial evaluation of the new cards for spheres is not promising, mobs take longer to kill, drop rate is low even with TH. Synth/Break/HQ rate seem about same, which means that the old items would still be better to farm for spheres/time.

Which means that it just will give those that bot another market to farm/exploit. As I predicted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

Initial evaluation of the new cards for spheres is not promising, mobs take longer to kill, drop rate is low even with TH. Synth/Break/HQ rate seem about same, which means that the old items would still be better to farm for spheres/time.

Which means that it just will give those that bot another market to farm/exploit. As I predicted.

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Obviously.

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Originally Posted by Halley

If theyre seriously dumb enough to make stackable sphere cards with higher than 1% drop rate on things that aren't apex mobs (a lot of qualifiers there) shield becomes free.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Halley

stackable desynthable cards that bots can go bananas on.

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Once one bot is gone from P mines, another appears, likely same person with another bought account. There is no way to win, the cards take longer to farm, have about same break rate, so spheres/time is less. SE please consider making cards create 2 spheres at least instead of 1 per synth.

PLEASE SE PLEASE I'm BEGGING YOU BAN BOTS FASTER. I'm on the verge of retiring from the game over this.

Waiting on Nya's ban theory.

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

I'm on the verge of retiring from the game over this.

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No you aren't, quit being dramatic.

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Originally Posted by Lunatone

Waiting on Nya's ban theory.

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You'll be *waiting* for months.

Not going to start a ban wave until they can take away a good 100 shields.

Saw a long time rmt-player selling 2 accounts with the final Escutcheon shield 10,000$ each. I can bet the rmt are bot-farming the shield.

Well the cards are a LOT rarer to drop than expected.
I was in Moh Gates Map#2 on the VT+ mobs and after 250+ kills with my THF99 with TH+9 in gear (which caps at +8 for gear, I know), I got ZERO CARDS to drop.
That was also using Aldo and Nanaa Mihgo in trusts for 2 more TH help.
Watching other people killing same exact groups of targets and telling me they are getting cards to drop about 1 out of every 4 or so kills.
Either my character is blacklisted against card drops (got every other possible item those targets could drop), or there's something VERY wrong with the drop rates.
SE, you really screwed the poop on this one. You need to open up the available drop rate, or make more targets viable options.
Want to get rid of the bots? Make spheres /ex too. Can't sell what cannot be sold and only used by the owner or /tossed. Already they cannot be NPC'ed, just add on "cannot sell". Period.