Nerf SMN

Don't even bother finding fight mechanics, just SMN AC it for easy win!

I'm a long time player and they nurfed a few jobs in the past and made them a fraction of what they where... I was a front line rdm till one such nurf now I can still grab hate but can't defend myself .....I'm maxxed out on almost everything but job points and those I solo....I've not been in a party since rdm was dropped from the front line....this means I've been solo player since about 2004 ... I'm a 119 I gear rated rdm that hits with magic/weapon/bow/rebuffs and because trusts take que from I gear they hit/buff/nuc/debuff better than me so think about when u ask something to be nurfed ....used to be fun back in the day playing rdm...now 'am I going to take hate' runs in my mind so much I only attack if I know I can control the mob

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Originally Posted by elqplau

I'm a long time player and they nurfed a few jobs in the past and made them a fraction of what they where... I was a front line rdm till one such nurf now I can still grab hate but can't defend myself .....I'm maxxed out on almost everything but job points and those I solo....I've not been in a party since rdm was dropped from the front line....this means I've been solo player since about 2004 ... I'm a 119 I gear rated rdm that hits with magic/weapon/bow/rebuffs and because trusts take que from I gear they hit/buff/nuc/debuff better than me so think about when u ask something to be nurfed ....used to be fun back in the day playing rdm...now 'am I going to take hate' runs in my mind so much I only attack if I know I can control the mob

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Front line rdm is still a thing, people who say it isn't don't play rdm correctly, I get a good 1200-1300 acc after food and still have a decent tp build and deal a fair amount of dmg as well, use the correct swords too and can magic burst a even higher amount, WS for 4-10k and MB for 15-35k, and i'm considered a weak rdm in comparison to some of the more stronger ones. thats higher dmg that some of the more common DDs (Not pimped) out there.

opening a SC for 7k dmg, then MB when someone closes it for 15-20k twice, (thats 35-42k dmg in a period of 10 seconds) and because of my Seidr Cotehardie i don't lose any mp from the MB so i'm constantly going without stoping.

As for defending, build your phalanx, stoneskin and fast cast correctly, utsusemi is still a valid thing too and can be constant with the right amount of haste and fast cast, not to mention rdm can self heal. oh, and theres gear that enhances refresh further, i got a +3 or 4 refresh added to my base refresh 2 spell because of gear that enhances potency, i could take it further but its too costly

It requires a bit to get the macro's right, but the result is amazing.

I feel glad that after reading that WHOLE 5 pages of "discussion", only once was PUP mentioned, and never once saw anything about H2H or MNK or NIN in there.
Oh wait,that's because no one wants those jobs for recent end-game content, nor had they ever.... /sigh lol.

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Originally Posted by Dzspdref

I feel glad that after reading that WHOLE 5 pages of "discussion", only once was PUP mentioned, and never once saw anything about H2H or MNK or NIN in there.
Oh wait,that's because no one wants those jobs for recent end-game content, nor had they ever.... /sigh lol.

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Actually, I use both pup and mnk, also in other forums people talk about how they want mnk to succeed and don't post here because SE doesn't responce 90% of the time because we complain about other useless things too much

They level the job did tedious shit to get gear and now your telling them they can't play a certain way wow no wonder ppl's pass on this game.

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Originally Posted by Songen

Actually, I use both pup and mnk, also in other forums people talk about how they want mnk to succeed and don't post here because SE doesn't responce 90% of the time because we complain about other useless things too much

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I love PUP, but because I can't get in to the end game content, or can't spend tens of millions of gil to buy the best gear, I can't bring that anywhere. So I'm gearing my blu now, which will probably get nerfed along with smn and then I'll need to spend months to gear up another job that will then get nerfed.....I agree what you said back in the beginning of this thread, we need to start boosting other jobs instead of nerfing everything.

Pup is actually in a decent spot right now. One of the better tanks... at least vs 1 target. Fights with multiple mobs or weird hate it kind of fails as does things like doom

Here's the thing. The only SMN who can do the AC spam and kill the mob in 3 min on ??? level are literally The Best Geared and job pointed SMNs in the game. You can actually do the same thing with a geared and job pointed BLM too, does BLM need to be nerfed as well?

As a fix without nerfing the ability itself, same duration but you have to alternate between Rage / Wards, so you can't spam Rages. Which is what everyone else is crying about

Another alternate fix is to make mobs immune to certain avatars, so it's trying to find the one that works (with only Garuda and Leviathan the only avatars that can heal themselves this would bring a certain strategy and timing if you have to use any of the other avatars)

Lol there is no way blms are doing anything near the level of AC zerging

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Originally Posted by Urmom

Pup is actually in a decent spot right now. One of the better tanks... at least vs 1 target. Fights with multiple mobs or weird hate it kind of fails as does things like doom

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So you mean it can tank Ambu and a few other things, but other than that, it fails.......right? I think some Omen stuff it can tank, but I need to still build my gear to do that.

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Originally Posted by Marada

So you mean it can tank Ambu and a few other things, but other than that, it fails.......right? I think some Omen stuff it can tank, but I need to still build my gear to do that.

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Kind of depends on the month but generally speaking ambuscade is one of the worst things it can tank at. In terms of just durability and how much support it needs it's often better than other tanks. One of it's biggest flaws is it can't get hate on multiple targets nor has aoe hate moves which makes it basically usable at least as the sole tank for a lot of ambuscade or all the various mobs that spawn adds that aggro the master. But against a single boss it's pretty amazing. Also really heavy dots kind of hurt it since all that dt doesn't matter and you can't really cure it

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Originally Posted by Marada

we need to start boosting other jobs instead of nerfing everything.

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If other jobs gets SMN level of efficiency and effectiveness then this game basically won't have any difficult content at all.

Currently here are the "high level" content in this game:
Kirin/WoC/T4
PW2
Master trial x3

Compare with the hardest content in 75(AV/PW), 2012(legion/NNI), 2013(pre-ilv delve). The skill and gear requirement in the highest endgame in 2017 was definitely one tier lower than the hardest content in previous years.......with SMN setup. The only exception being Shadowlord master trial, which can't be SMN zerged....yet. Everything else basically has no longevity since well geared SMN pt destroys everything quite easily, and relatively safe too.

We're at a point that most of the hardcore player are running out of goals, except making one pointless REMA after another. The fact that SMN makes hardest endgame content MUCH easier only hurt the game in the long run. And now people are asking every job to do what SMN can do.

Do you not care about challenging content? Or would you rather play an MMO that everyone sleep through every content on SMN? That's what FFXI is atm, and it's not fun. I really don't understand why people are anti nerf on this issue or even ask every job to be as OP as that. What's the point to work on your jobs and build gear sets, work on pt coordination if all you ever need is change job to SMN and spam BP then get win?

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Originally Posted by Teraniku

Here's the thing. The only SMN who can do the AC spam and kill the mob in 3 min on ??? level are literally The Best Geared and job pointed SMNs in the game. You can actually do the same thing with a geared and job pointed BLM too, does BLM need to be nerfed as well?

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In terms of raw damage output, AC SMN >>>>>>Melees >>>> BLM.

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Originally Posted by Afania

In terms of raw damage output, AC SMN >>>>>>Melees >>>> BLM.

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OK my Bad but what do you all propose to fix it?

-Nerf Damage output while Astral Conduit is in Effect?

-Shorten the length of Astral Conduit or lessen it's Full mp when used Capabilities?

- Negate or alter the effects of GEO auras on Avatars?

-Lower the Blood Pact Damage enhancement on Gear?

What do you propose to Fix it?

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Originally Posted by Afania

In terms of raw damage output, AC SMN >>>>>>Melees >>>> BLM.

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I wouldn't be so sure about this. The biggest reason is that SMN is mostly burst damage, while most melees rely more on damage over time, and few have the means to output large burst damage.

The reason this is important, is because burst is almost always more preferred than DOT. For one main reason, if both forms can kill a mob in the same time frame, burst wins because it is often safer. As an example, consider a long cast time spell like Freeze vs a melee, if the melee can't kill the mob significantly faster than freeze casts, freeze will be preferred due to being able to negate the threat of the mob during the cast time due to crowd control like sleep or even better the mob still un-agroed.

Now for Teraniku's question about how to bring smn more in line with other jobs. I am perfectly fine with smn having its excellent burst damage, as it is pretty rare that you hear much about smn doing great without the use of a 1hr ability. So really the question should be more about what can be done to endgame content so that stacking smns and burst killing is not the solution.

I don't want to see burst damage become irrelevant, just used more appropriately. And one main idea that comes to mind deal with this is giving mobs greatly increased resistance/evasion to burst abilities during specific phases. So for example, a mob that won't take much damage from a smn until it is at under 2/3rds hp or is doing a specific action.

Much beyond that idea, either ends up drastically nerfing burst classes such as smn, or over buffing the DOT classes. The only other thing I can think of is adding a new agroing mechanic to mobs to detect the preparation of high burst skills and begin attacking before the skill finishes, front load them with significant hate generation and instantly adding any party members within a certain distance to all agroed mobs hate list.

I dunno which would be easier for the devs at this point, reworking the whole agro system, or adding in ways to make it impractical for end game mobs to be just be burst killed in short order without just giving them absurd amounts of hp.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

I wouldn't be so sure about this. The biggest reason is that SMN is mostly burst damage, while most melees rely more on damage over time, and few have the means to output large burst damage.

The reason this is important, is because burst is almost always more preferred than DOT. For one main reason, if both forms can kill a mob in the same time frame, burst wins because it is often safer. As an example, consider a long cast time spell like Freeze vs a melee, if the melee can't kill the mob significantly faster than freeze casts, freeze will be preferred due to being able to negate the threat of the mob during the cast time due to crowd control like sleep or even better the mob still un-agroed.

Now for Teraniku's question about how to bring smn more in line with other jobs. I am perfectly fine with smn having its excellent burst damage, as it is pretty rare that you hear much about smn doing great without the use of a 1hr ability. So really the question should be more about what can be done to endgame content so that stacking smns and burst killing is not the solution.

I don't want to see burst damage become irrelevant, just used more appropriately. And one main idea that comes to mind deal with this is giving mobs greatly increased resistance/evasion to burst abilities during specific phases. So for example, a mob that won't take much damage from a smn until it is at under 2/3rds hp or is doing a specific action.

Much beyond that idea, either ends up drastically nerfing burst classes such as smn, or over buffing the DOT classes. The only other thing I can think of is adding a new agroing mechanic to mobs to detect the preparation of high burst skills and begin attacking before the skill finishes, front load them with significant hate generation and instantly adding any party members within a certain distance to all agroed mobs hate list.

I dunno which would be easier for the devs at this point, reworking the whole agro system, or adding in ways to make it impractical for end game mobs to be just be burst killed in short order without just giving them absurd amounts of hp.

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I don't think I like your options. :x Most current endgame mobs already have absurd amounts of HP if you bring too many people (due to the scaling factor,) and enmity adjustments probably wouldn't do much to curb the tactic.. One of the SMN would just pop Perfect Defense before going on offense, and given that the speed of SMN burn kills is the main complaint, odds are good they can burn it down before PD wears anyway. Any enmity changes would be more likely to just hurt everyone else and do very little to discourage the tactic.

Perhaps some sort of innate damage taken cap for a specific time frame like 2-3min? Basically, for the first few minutes, being capped to say, 30k per source, might be enough to remove the speed advantage that smn-burns have. A 30k cap would also only affect the highest end melees, so the great majority of the playerbase would be unlikely to be affected. Think of it as an inverse rage phase. XD

SE: if you're not going to nerf SMN, can beastmasters get their 20 yalms back?

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

I don't think I like your options. :x Most current endgame mobs already have absurd amounts of HP if you bring too many people (due to the scaling factor,) and enmity adjustments probably wouldn't do much to curb the tactic.. One of the SMN would just pop Perfect Defense before going on offense, and given that the speed of SMN burn kills is the main complaint, odds are good they can burn it down before PD wears anyway. Any enmity changes would be more likely to just hurt everyone else and do very little to discourage the tactic.

Perhaps some sort of innate damage taken cap for a specific time frame like 2-3min? Basically, for the first few minutes, being capped to say, 30k per source, might be enough to remove the speed advantage that smn-burns have. A 30k cap would also only affect the highest end melees, so the great majority of the playerbase would be unlikely to be affected. Think of it as an inverse rage phase. XD

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Interestingly enough, out of all the options I mentioned this mirrors my preferred solution. Giving the mobs phases where astral burn just does not work either due to increased defenses or triggers attacks that have enough range and strength to potentially wipe the whole battlefield. The key is in having that aspect of the phase unable to be bypassed by coordinating multiples landing at the same time like how modus veritas was used. Though a different class, like say multiple samurai could burn through that phase with their 1hrs.

For the agro changes, going to use freeze as an example again. What I would be in favor for here is a decent ammount of aggro being generated at the start of casting on the targeted mob and others on the parties hate list in addition to the what the damage portion generates. Now for something like astral call and conduit, we would be talking along the lines of hate that invincible and benediction generate on use as well as some spill over from the damage applied to both the smn and avatar. It would need some tweaking, but the goal would be to make smn's large burst not be so hate free.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

Interestingly enough, out of all the options I mentioned this mirrors my preferred solution. Giving the mobs phases where astral burn just does not work either due to increased defenses or triggers attacks that have enough range and strength to potentially wipe the whole battlefield. The key is in having that aspect of the phase unable to be bypassed by coordinating multiples landing at the same time like how modus veritas was used. Though a different class, like say multiple samurai could burn through that phase with their 1hrs.

For the agro changes, going to use freeze as an example again. What I would be in favor for here is a decent ammount of aggro being generated at the start of casting on the targeted mob and others on the parties hate list in addition to the what the damage portion generates. Now for something like astral call and conduit, we would be talking along the lines of hate that invincible and benediction generate on use as well as some spill over from the damage applied to both the smn and avatar. It would need some tweaking, but the goal would be to make smn's large burst not be so hate free.

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It would most likely have to be something that affected all jobs and not just SMN. I'm not sure that the system can tell the difference between pet types for damage calculations, and I for one, absolutely do not want to see BST get nerfed further than it already has been. >.> Even if it is possible to pinpoint BP.Rage, having them trigger "full battlefield" aoes simply removes SMN from playability. They might as well remove the job from the game at that point.

Your proposed enmity changes would either totally cripple SMN by making it too dangerous to use, or possibly turn it into a tank. <,< Again, making a job impossible to play normally is far from a viable solution. Perfect Defense rotations might become a thing again if SMN generated similar enmity to PLD, so be prepared to see 6xSMN parties take over if your proposal got implemented.

Also, enmity is jacked in non-SOA+ zones to begin with, so any baseline enmity changes (like those directly connected to JA/magic) would only make things even wonkier. :/

SMN damage output is actually not imbalanced outside of SP usage, so the only things that should be a potential adjustment target should be stuff that directly relates to damage output while SPs are up. A time-limited damage cap (30k-40k should work) should at least even out the kill-times between SMN/others and reduce the perceived "need" to use SMN for the fastest kills.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

It would most likely have to be something that affected all jobs and not just SMN. I'm not sure that the system can tell the difference between pet types for damage calculations, and I for one, absolutely do not want to see BST get nerfed further than it already has been. >.> Even if it is possible to pinpoint BP.Rage, having them trigger "full battlefield" aoes simply removes SMN from playability. They might as well remove the job from the game at that point.

Your proposed enmity changes would either totally cripple SMN by making it too dangerous to use, or possibly turn it into a tank. <,< Again, making a job impossible to play normally is far from a viable solution. Perfect Defense rotations might become a thing again if SMN generated similar enmity to PLD, so be prepared to see 6xSMN parties take over if your proposal got implemented.

Also, enmity is jacked in non-SOA+ zones to begin with, so any baseline enmity changes (like those directly connected to JA/magic) would only make things even wonkier. :/

SMN damage output is actually not imbalanced outside of SP usage, so the only things that should be a potential adjustment target should be stuff that directly relates to damage output while SPs are up. A time-limited damage cap (30k-40k should work) should at least even out the kill-times between SMN/others and reduce the perceived "need" to use SMN for the fastest kills.

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Again, this is why the triggering of a move with battlefield aoe of either damage or nasty effects would be tied to specific monster phases. You know, like how Bahamut swaps between Megaflare, Gigaflare, and Teraflare based on how much HP he has remaining. Or like Spike Flail back in the day which was triggered almost exclusively when one took agro in certian locations in relation to the mob. In essence during a specific phase of a monster, it getting hit with massive damage on the scale multiple SMNs can produce causes the mob to do something nasty, or during said phase being highly resistant or evasive to certain abilities. If it is tied to specific phases, it doesn't make any class unplayable, and instead encourages bringing more variety to fights thanks to mechanics.

As to being able to tell the difference between pet types... I am pretty sure they can differentiate between pet magical and physical damage, as after all they have gear that can give bonuses to specific ones. Also don't forget certain avatars are more specialized towards physical damage as well.

The biggest problem with SMN's damage is how safe it is to use it in the first place. I am not saying make every summoner action generate a lot of agro, but some do need to generate more of it. Grabbing a random person to aggro the mobs in a way that keeps them off the hate list so a group of smns can pop Astral Flow/Conduit and blast away and clear them all in perfect safety does not work for long term health of the game. Should Smn be able to put out ridiculous damage while using those abilities, yes. Should Smn be able to use those abilities and the mob never really bat an eye towards the Smn? This is where the problem lies, and one of the reasons I propose adding emnity components to their 1hrs, and lesser amounts that decays fairly quickly for damaging blood pacts(enough so that Conduit+multiple BP's at the very least pull agro from a recently summoned avatar). The right amount is hard to say, but should be enough where unless the tank has had time to build significant enmity the 1hrs run a very real risk of pulling agro in a hurry.

Again, with having phases to the monsters where using smn 1hrs is bad, either due to counter attacks or them being ineffective, helps even things out as well and adds a little bit of skill requirement to smn by having to pay attention and know when to use their abilities, instead of defaulting to pop 1hrs and just obliterate.

Anything that limits when a certain job is useful will equate to "do not use" as far as the playerbase is concerned. If there are any significant "phase" where a SMN can not attack, then SMN will simply be excluded. IMO, that is not a viable solution. I'm not sure that the devs are currently able to specify specific abilities/spells for triggers.. At least, I can't think of a single implementation of something similarly specific. The only examples I can come up with involve spell skill type (as in "Geomancy skill" or "Job Ability" or "Magic") or physVSmagic damage.

"Pet type" does not mean "damage type", it means "BST vs SMN vs PUP vs DRG". Again, I can't come up with any examples of where something similar has been implemented already as most (all?) of the time they are all lumped into a single "Pet" category. Odds are high that anything that could be done right now to nerf SMN pets would affect all four pet jobs rather than just SMN. That nullifies this potential solution unless the devs are willing to add a new combat system which sounds like a lot more work than they are willing/capable of doing with the current dev team.

SMN being able to command their pets from range is the primary aspect of the job. Unlike PUP/BST/DRG, the player is not intended to be doing damage themselves (don't get me started on BST tho..) and damage potential is intended and balanced around the pet being the only output source. It is not a "problem", it is the core design of the job and should not be touched. Range has zero direct impact on damage output, which is the perceived problem here. BLM and RNG can do burst damage at range as well, should they be nerfed too? BLM even gets less enmity from MBing than normal casts, and neither normal/MB give enough enmity to pull off of a tank in SOA+ areas.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

Anything that limits when a certain job is useful will equate to "do not use" as far as the playerbase is concerned. If there are any significant "phase" where a SMN can not attack, then SMN will simply be excluded. IMO, that is not a viable solution. I'm not sure that the devs are currently able to specify specific abilities/spells for triggers.. At least, I can't think of a single implementation of something similarly specific. The only examples I can come up with involve spell skill type (as in "Geomancy skill" or "Job Ability" or "Magic") or physVSmagic damage.

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The funny thing is, smn has never really been sought for things outside of burning things down with their 1hrs. The phase would not necessarily prevent smn from attacking, but more intended to stop how people use smn to zerg and burn things down. It could be something as simple as if mob takes X damage from one target in Y seconds, use skill Z that is very dangerous.

And as to being able specify and detect specific abilities for triggers, Absolute Virtue. You had to lock it out of reusing specific 2hrs(at the time) by using them within a window of time after it used them. So they have used that type of mechanic before. Which means they can indeed have mobs respond to the activation of Astral Flow and/or Astral Conduit during specific phases. Such as if monster detects one of those abilities used during the non-burn phase, could have it do a large scale charm/amnesia/silence effect, or something similar.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

"Pet type" does not mean "damage type", it means "BST vs SMN vs PUP vs DRG". Again, I can't come up with any examples of where something similar has been implemented already as most (all?) of the time they are all lumped into a single "Pet" category. Odds are high that anything that could be done right now to nerf SMN pets would affect all four pet jobs rather than just SMN. That nullifies this potential solution unless the devs are willing to add a new combat system which sounds like a lot more work than they are willing/capable of doing with the current dev team.

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Well I forgot one thing, bst pets and drg wyvern still have their respective family types, so it would not surprise me at all if there is already a built in "avatar" monster family. If so they can give monsters special buffs akin to the varied circle JA's that grant bonuses against specific families of monsters as well as killer traits corresponding to what is tied to the avatars, and this would keep it from hitting other pet jobs as well. After all Drg wyvern, and bst pets get affected by killer traits all the time. So skip the pet damage type entirely, and target via the potential "avatar" monster family that is likely already in place on summoned avatars. The varied circle, breaker, and killer skills and traits show they already have stuff in place to specifically target sources of damage, question is do the avatars actually have a family type associated with them?

As to why pet damage type came up, Smn is the only one that does significant amounts of magical damage so would be easier to have a reduction happen to pet magic damage over X, or if needed to all pet damage over X to cover the few physical bloodpacts, as most of the other pets don't output much magical damage on that scale.(never really see pup's in action so I may be wrong on their automation)

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

SMN being able to command their pets from range is the primary aspect of the job. Unlike PUP/BST/DRG, the player is not intended to be doing damage themselves (don't get me started on BST tho..) and damage potential is intended and balanced around the pet being the only output source. It is not a "problem", it is the core design of the job and should not be touched. Range has zero direct impact on damage output, which is the perceived problem here. BLM and RNG can do burst damage at range as well, should they be nerfed too? BLM even gets less enmity from MBing than normal casts, and neither normal/MB give enough enmity to pull off of a tank in SOA+ areas.

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Its not the range that smn does its damage at that is the problem, its the general lack of emnity they generate while doing so. The difference between BLM and RNG to SMN for the longest time has been if they go full out on enemies before hate is well established, they take a dirt nap. Smn just has to take a moment and recast a new avatar, so what is so wrong with Smn risking dirt naps when it fires everything it has off? Which essentially takes away the "glass" portion of their "Glass Cannon" playstyle. Hypothetically, if a tank has to only use one non-1hr emnity skill to hold the attention of an endgame mob when its health drops from 100-10% in under 1m from the rest of the party unloading all their burst, something is very wrong with the enmity generated by all that damage as there is no real risk to going full out with burst from the start. Which is why burn parties are popular, fast and little risk for those that know how they work.

Bst... well that one has always been in an odd spot.... either needed to minimize agro enough so could throw multiple pets at higher end mobs when solo, or use EM's and melee along side them to chain kill DC's much faster for good experience as well. And really, the only reason Bst ever needed to minimize agro was due to fighting mobs that needed multiple pets to deal with in the first place. But Bst has always had the risk of non-jugs uncharming and resisting new charm attempts. Now if there is gear to actually support both pet and bst melee is another problem entirely.

There are numerous jobs other than SMN which is capable of cranking out large amounts of damage in a short time, so any form of your XYZ idea is going to potentially nerf others unless it's sooooo high that even SMN struggles to hit it. (Think like 200k+/6sec XD ...actually some melees can break that too, so nevermind.) It won't do any good for anyone if everyone in top-end gear is forced to hold back.

Didn't think of AV, good catch. ^^ However, even then, that's only 15x abilities that it had to care about. There's a helluva lot more than 15x BP.Rage abilities, which could potentially be too much to process server-side on each and every JA/spell used, possibly including all sources rather than avatar-only. And yeah, I'd bet that it really would require that much work, PS2-limitations etc. most likely limit what can be done at this point.

Totally forgot that the family types of pets are checked/separated within Voidwatch, (I've never done them as PUP/DRG/SMN and BST pets are only ever referenced as generic "pets",) so it actually might be possible to do something with this. Instituting any anti-SMN damage penalty would still only lead to SMN getting excluded from groups. Historically, the general attitude would probably be "SMN got nerfed? Don't care what the nerf was, I'm not using them then." That happened with the BST nerf btw, even though actual damage output was not touched in the slightest. ^^;;

Avatars are part of the Elemental family IIRC, which doesn't have a native killer effect. BGwiki has them listed as "Unclassified" though, so might be wrong. Even if added though, intimidation does not interrupt JAs like Ready, so I doubt this would have any significant impact.

Damage type wouldn't work as a good filter, since a lot of the heavy hitter BP.Rage's are physical or hybrid. Anything that relied only on magic damage type would hit all pet jobs and nerf the already middling magic damage output of BST and reduce PUP to a point where it wouldn't even be worth trying for. A PUP who's geared for automaton magic damage actually can produce some impressive MB numbers, though I've heard it's a serious PITA to do so. Targeting phys damage would be even worse.

Enmity works differently in SOA+ zones/content than in earlier areas. Old areas use the old enmity formulas and it's basically impossible for a tank to hold agro vs any type of DD player. I've done UNMs with a top-end geared PLD and even if I did not touch the mob for 30sec while he popped all his enmity tools, one WS/Ready would be all it took to snatch hate. SOA+ zones/content use a new formula to allow good tanks to hold agro against BLMs MBing for 99999, melees WSing for 50k (plus 99999 skillchain), etc. and is absolutely necessary to allow for jobs to do their things while using the best gear. (Do note that not-good tanks will struggle to perform well in that situation though. XD)

Since ilvl was introduced, BST has not had to worry about any of the issues you mentioned, but instead we now have to worry about pets taking agro from not-awesome tanks. ^^;;; Since we now have to totally rely on jug pets (the vast majority of ilvl NMs and instanced content do not involve any charmable mobs,) it is a bit simpler compared to the old-school style. Every BST I knew BITD favored the {Over there.} style of gameplay, which the devs nerfed a while back citing their "vision" for the job being master+pet fighting side-by-side even though there are no JA/JT/equipment to support that playstyle in ilvl content and have yet to add anything to allow it to be a fully viable playstyle... (Yes, I'm a bit bitter about this issue. <,<;; Sue me. lol)

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

Didn't think of AV, good catch. ^^ However, even then, that's only 15x abilities that it had to care about. There's a helluva lot more than 15x BP.Rage abilities, which could potentially be too much to process server-side on each and every JA/spell used, possibly including all sources rather than avatar-only. And yeah, I'd bet that it really would require that much work, PS2-limitations etc. most likely limit what can be done at this point.

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They don't have to watch for all the BP rage abilities, really just Astral Flow and Astral Conduit are the ones as they pretty much signify the Smn is about to unleash hell. That is if they want to deter smn burning content.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

Totally forgot that the family types of pets are checked/separated within Voidwatch, (I've never done them as PUP/DRG/SMN and BST pets are only ever referenced as generic "pets",) so it actually might be possible to do something with this. Instituting any anti-SMN damage penalty would still only lead to SMN getting excluded from groups. Historically, the general attitude would probably be "SMN got nerfed? Don't care what the nerf was, I'm not using them then." That happened with the BST nerf btw, even though actual damage output was not touched in the slightest. ^^;;

Avatars are part of the Elemental family IIRC, which doesn't have a native killer effect. BGwiki has them listed as "Unclassified" though, so might be wrong. Even if added though, intimidation does not interrupt JAs like Ready, so I doubt this would have any significant impact.

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People tend to knee-jerk to anything, and migrate to whatever else becomes the Flavor of the Month if they were not playing it because they liked it in the first place. Happens all the time when things get adjusted in the pursuit of balance.

They may not have anything listed on bgwiki, though ffxiclopedia does have them tagged as "avatar", but consider that almost every mob in the game has been associated with some family type as evidenced by Blue Magic and that when the avatars are enemies outside of specific battlefield fights they are often called xxxx avatar. And some of the odd ones, like sea mobs, I have to wonder if they were typed before or after Blue mage was released. Which makes one wonder if avatars indeed have a unique family type. While intimidate doesn't stop ready(which is a status granted from the bst), I do remember seeing pets get intimidated after using ready and sometimes not using a skill. If they have a family type, it doesn't have to be a killer effect, but more like the defense/resistance bonuses the circle JA's give. Heck, if I remember right, some mobs even intimidated players too.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

Damage type wouldn't work as a good filter, since a lot of the heavy hitter BP.Rage's are physical or hybrid. Anything that relied only on magic damage type would hit all pet jobs and nerf the already middling magic damage output of BST and reduce PUP to a point where it wouldn't even be worth trying for. A PUP who's geared for automaton magic damage actually can produce some impressive MB numbers, though I've heard it's a serious PITA to do so. Targeting phys damage would be even worse.

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Agreed, going after specific damage types from pets would likely cause the most problems overall.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

Enmity works differently in SOA+ zones/content than in earlier areas. Old areas use the old enmity formulas and it's basically impossible for a tank to hold agro vs any type of DD player. I've done UNMs with a top-end geared PLD and even if I did not touch the mob for 30sec while he popped all his enmity tools, one WS/Ready would be all it took to snatch hate. SOA+ zones/content use a new formula to allow good tanks to hold agro against BLMs MBing for 99999, melees WSing for 50k (plus 99999 skillchain), etc. and is absolutely necessary to allow for jobs to do their things while using the best gear. (Do note that not-good tanks will struggle to perform well in that situation though. XD)

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Emnity fell apart around the time of abysea, mostly thanks to how much damage ramped up around then. It still works fine in normal areas until you cross a certain gear threshold. And as long as not good tanks loose agro to a smn going full out I have no problems, and the agro isn't also gaurenteed to go on to the smn's avatar in that case. Good tanks could hold or easily take back agro from things like benediction back in the day as well without the use of SATA.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

Since ilvl was introduced, BST has not had to worry about any of the issues you mentioned, but instead we now have to worry about pets taking agro from not-awesome tanks. ^^;;; Since we now have to totally rely on jug pets (the vast majority of ilvl NMs and instanced content do not involve any charmable mobs,) it is a bit simpler compared to the old-school style. Every BST I knew BITD favored the {Over there.} style of gameplay, which the devs nerfed a while back citing their "vision" for the job being master+pet fighting side-by-side even though there are no JA/JT/equipment to support that playstyle in ilvl content and have yet to add anything to allow it to be a fully viable playstyle... (Yes, I'm a bit bitter about this issue. <,<;; Sue me. lol)

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I have yet to get bst to 99 and ilvl content, but I know I found the melee with pet style to be far more enjoyable while I was leveling it. Bst has the axe skill to do well in melee, so its more of is there gear for both bst and pet to function effectively. I heard about that nerf... and that the range for the abilities is too small now for some races.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

People tend to knee-jerk to anything, and migrate to whatever else becomes the Flavor of the Month if they were not playing it because they liked it in the first place. Happens all the time when things get adjusted in the pursuit of balance.
...
I have yet to get bst to 99 and ilvl content, but I know I found the melee with pet style to be far more enjoyable while I was leveling it. Bst has the axe skill to do well in melee, so its more of is there gear for both bst and pet to function effectively. I heard about that nerf... and that the range for the abilities is too small now for some races.

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Wanna talk about knee-jerks? XD Just look at BST. To address complaints that BST/BSTburns were able to clear content more easily/reliably than other jobs, they overnerfed the range to make it a severe PITA to play the job. They didn't touch anything else like pet or master damage output, but they managed to destroy a playstyle that's been around since the life of the game, but they did manage to chase off all the FOTM/bandwagoners by doing so. Should be noted that not too long after the nerf went live, melees caught up gearwise and promptly began to outperform BST in damage output. lol orz

Extra salt in the wound, they have failed to do much of anything to support the playstyle that they have decided is the "correct" way to play the job.. It is literally impossible to get enough accuracy for both master/pet at the same time to handle 135+ content.

BST JA range is now ~6y from your pet, with a variance based on pet model size (tiger is a longer model and gives a longer range) plus a small variance (roughly .2y between sizes) between races. The variance is a separate/universal issue connected to player model size, but it stands out a lot when you compare a taru to galka at max range for BST since the range is so bloody small now. The range is so small however, that it's not hard to be meleeing less than 90' away from your pet and get the "out of range" error.

... TBH, I have 99SMN, but I don't play it since I don't have space to gear it. I'm posting here because I don't want what happened to BST to happen to anyone else. To me, any form of acceptable nerf would be one that is not actually SMN-specific but manages to curb the immediate burst output out of the gate in general without crippling anyone.

SMN is not overpowered, there are still many more DD jobs that can out damage SMN easily, Conduit is where SMN shines most though and there is a cost of using it as it drains your MP super fast at the cost of the high dmg, to counter this you need to be a good SMN with knowledge on how to use conduit to its full potential. People need to stop whining about a SMN nerf, SMN was in terrible shape for a decade and is finally now on par with most other jobs and I for one main SMN since launch and even with a good group it still takes some real effort to get aeonics done, especially the reisenjima HELMS.

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Originally Posted by Clou777

SMN is not You overpowered, there are still many more DD jobs that can out damage SMN easily

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Name one job that can DPS higher than SMN using AC please.

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Originally Posted by Clou777

SMN is not overpowered, there are still many more DD jobs that can out damage SMN easily, Conduit is where SMN shines most though and there is a cost of using it as it drains your MP super fast at the cost of the high dmg, to counter this you need to be a good SMN with knowledge on how to use conduit to its full potential.

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My problem isn't so much with smn being strong while using conduit. It is more the fact the defacto solution to just about any hard content quickly becomes throw a lot of smns with conduit and/or flow to just burn things down from 100 to 0 in short order. Any changes I would like to see is more in the lines of preventing mass smns using conduit to be the solution for almost everything. Smns burning down a 20-25% nasty phase perfectly acceptable, the whole mob not so much as it kills off job diversity and leads to forcing people to play stuff they don't like for the off chance of maybe improving what they enjoy yet can't bring to harder content.

We have had RUNs in dd gear put up substantial parses in t4 conduits (upwards of 60% of a smn) I have no doubts a <1 minute schah is possible with melee DDs, it would just involve prebuff bards and the melee pouncing at pop.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

My problem isn't so much with smn being strong while using conduit. It is more the fact the defacto solution to just about any hard content quickly becomes throw a lot of smns with conduit and/or flow to just burn things down from 100 to 0 in short order.

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And that's part of what people don't see. This isn't a SMN problem in and of itself alone; this strategy has been used a number of times before. One SMN can't floor these things, it takes an entire group plus outside aid from COR and GEO. So to curb this type of play style from lazy players, this is a dev situation which need to be on a more creative level. Has much as I'd hate to see it done: The likely fix is to rebuke this style by forcing certain stages or retributive strikes. The first fix is much like the Pandemonium Warden, and once certain thresholds are hit (likely within a certain time) the enemy despawns and reappears with the allies it should have. The second fix is basically if an enemy is killed far to fast that it gives a OHKO move that ends the fight. The second is far more harsh, but would also punish EVERYONE has a whole. Ultimately it's a time sensitive matter, and with most end game things already having a displayed clock, I feel that it shouldn't be too difficult to implement. Those are just my thoughts, but I'm sure there could be more ideas and tweaks to make a best solution that would benefit the game and community as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

And that's part of what people don't see. This isn't a SMN problem in and of itself alone; this strategy has been used a number of times before. One SMN can't floor these things, it takes an entire group plus outside aid from COR and GEO. .

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Not really. Smns are literally soloing T3 reisin. T4s are often with a party or less but yes it often includes a geo and sometimes run with the rest being smns. And that's where the huge advantage comes from. The lower numbers needed to do this means less hp which is what allow these zergs to even happen. Just one more problem caused by the extreme HP scaling

To be honest, there are a least a handful of jobs soloing Reisenjima T3. Search for T3 solo videos. I've seen BLU and SCH soloing them off the top of my head. Haven't seen SMN but I don't discount it. Without being super charged by a GEO and COR, I don't see it capable of melting a T3 and avoiding mechanics altogether solo.

Thought only a couple of the T3s have been done. Like when looking for vids as suggested all I see Neak solo by sch and a Yakshi solo by smn who also solod Onychophora (neither of which are "super charged" vids). And I've heard tell of blu doing Neak but haven't seen it but enough people say they do it so I'll buy it

How exactly do you use a geo and still solo? Bubbles wear on pop don't they? Not sure about Neak but the idea on Yakshi is mostly to kill fast enough your odds of getting hit by something fight ending go decently down and for Maju to go slow and steady at never let it get enough tp to go glow eyes

Regardless of other jobs doing wasn't really the point I was countering. I was countering this idea that you need an army of them or something when really you don't need

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Originally Posted by Urmom

Regardless of other jobs doing wasn't really the point I was countering. I was countering this idea that you need an army of them or something when really you don't need

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While don't need an army of them to do it, it is still telling that they are one of the first things people try for harder content to get past it easily.

After all, how often do you hear something is hard so lets throw more of generic DDs at it? Such as thf, drg, non-Kclub drks. It is almost always Smn that is sought. Blm, Rng, and Sam are the other main ones sought over the game's lifespan, thanks to the raw amount of burst they can do compared to others.

I see what you're saying but I also didn't want anyone to assume SMN is this OP job that's the only one soloing T3. I don't fully agree with nerfing SMN but I'm listening intently to concerns regarding it and find it has some validity.

The only thing I've seen players bring up is nerfing SMN because of Astral Conduit's DPS. Something like soloing a T3 you're not going to do solo with AC. It'll knock a chunk of health off but you're not melting one and certainly not avoiding mechanics. I brought up GEO and COR because that's where the spike comes from on higher content. Pet buffs and bubbles make a huge difference in damage and besides food and gear there's not much else to buff pets. So if someone is looking at what SMN is doing in a group, they can't apply that damage to solo. Not just speed but you're not doing near as much per Blood Pact without support.

Some BLU vs. Neak solo videos:
https://youtu.be/GL2ltSUCxeU

Problem is AC is the problem. Not many have too much of a concern with there being jobs that can deal decent dmg from a distance (unless that job is bst for some reason) it's when they start outdps others at the same time with less other jobs needed if only for a short time. This whole thread wouldn't exist if it wasn't for a combination of the new bp dmgs during AC. So why not adjust AC if it's the clear problem?

As far as cor/geo... eh nobody is going to easy mode full dmg solo. It's a question of how much support is needed. Melee is undeniably always been the most support intensive to the point it's why prebuffing became a thing but traditionally offered the highest potential dps. With rng/mage strats being a bit less support (pretty much just a tank and support/healer for tank) and "safer" but a tad less dps (though not as much since the MB update). And strats really just needing the pet jobs but can be helpful to have 1 cor 1 geo and for certain zergs a run.

Could only find this vid but even with some mistakes and taking breaks to siphon tp for safety (makes it slower but less likely something random happens) still managed to go 67-5% on AC. If actually did prebuff with a cor, didn't make a couple of small errors and played the luck roulette by not using Cait Sith could probably do a bigger chunk possibly all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF34wSEiczU&t

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Originally Posted by Frodnon

We have had RUNs in dd gear put up substantial parses in t4 conduits (upwards of 60% of a smn) I have no doubts a <1 minute schah is possible with melee DDs, it would just involve prebuff bards and the melee pouncing at pop.

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Melee actually are in danger of dying. Ranged classes that completely bypass all boss mechanics shouldn't deal anywhere near the damage of a melee.

Fixing this problem is such an easy thing. I quit this game for 7 months and come back and something like this has been allowed to run rampant for SEVEN months? I'm honestly disgusted - how can developers care so little about their game they'd allow a class to literally GAME SHARK their and completely destroy all of it's difficulty?

Remove AC from the game until it's redesigned. SMN is 100% balanced and fine outside of AC.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Melee actually are in danger of dying. Ranged classes that completely bypass all boss mechanics shouldn't deal anywhere near the damage of a melee.

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Conduit burns aren't some magic 100% 'i win' buttons, even with the best setup. Schah can AOE and kill a pet or get a debuff off and stop a pet, killing DPS and costing the run. Kouryu can terrorize avatar or player and cost the run. A SMN can, sometimes, recover from that and resummon in time, but it costs usually 4-5 seconds of a 30 second ability.

Putting the blame solely on AC is pretty poor, and ignores all the other balancing issues that contribute to it.

HP scaling mechanics contribute to small party zergs over other setups. If the mob's HP were static, Setups involving melee DD would arguably be much more viable due to how much damage a superbuffed party of DD can put out in 1, 2, or 5 minutes, opposed to the frontloaded 30s of conduit followed by the rapidly falling DPS of post conduit SMN.

Mobs often lack hard stop mechanics. omen caturae, Tumult Curator and oncycophora are good examples of mobs that do have them, Schah is a poor example but does have it. Hard stop abilities like Invincible/Perfect Dodge, HP% Gimmicks like Respawning Kouryu at 50%, Multiple Targets of TC or Schah's DT- while 2+ pets are out All Mitigate a straight zerg. Schah just unfortunately has his be Timer based insted of HP, giving enough of a window to take down.

Odyllic Subterfuge helps to mitigate Debuffs to an extent.
GEO indi-frailty scales damage on pacts greatly.
DA fTP mechanics of Volt Strike gives Nirvana a 30% damage increase (40% total) over the 2nd highest competitor, Was+1 at 9%

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Melee actually are in danger of dying. Ranged classes that completely bypass all boss mechanics shouldn't deal anywhere near the damage of a melee.

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You do realize that all avatars have to be in Melee range to use their Physical Blood Pacts, right? Avatars have substantially less HP than players and other pets outside of Wyverns. They are still susceptible to all status debuffs including Amnesia, ATT/MACC/ACC/DEF/etc Down with them having a slightly higher resistance to elemental debuffs that are their elements or the ones they're strong versus (E.I. Leviathan and Ifrit are slightly less likely to get Amnesia) So, meaning that if an Avatar dies or is inflicted with something that prevents their actions like stun/terror/amnesia/petrify/etc then AC basically becomes useless because it only lasts for 30s.

Again, this isn't solely a SMN problem. Summoner burns are nothing new. I've said it before: The old Promy Fight, Those were SMN burned. Waking the Beast: Alliance of solely SMNs. The problems is that the game has shifted so hard to punish melee fighting with extreme AoEs and spamming of things like Full Clears of Debuffs. To add on top of all this, most enemies HP Skyrocket to unGodly amounts with more people that you bring. The problem is that this MMO punishes you for playing with other people. Nerfing SMN isn't what needs to happen. the Nerfing that should be looked at is the redesigning of the MOBS themselves.